Character Levels and Non-Chronological Play

[Ben Morgan]

Hey, had a thought kicking around for a couple of days now, and I've got to see if there are any opinions on it.

It's related to a project that's been casually ongoing in my head for a while, regarding D&D, and how I can streamline the d20 system enough that I can run it comfortably. It started with dumping the skills system entirely, and simply using relevant class levels as skills: Want to identify that magical item? Roll Int + Rogue. Find yourself in combat, but you're not a Fighter? Just roll straight Dex to hit.

But I digress.

This line of thinking regarding how to subvert the purposes of the various facets of the d20 system got me to thinking about Sorcerer & Sword's non-chronological stories concept, and how one might be able to use D&D's level system to scale a character backward or forward for a given episode.

Create a character, start him at level 17, and run an appropriately high-level adventure. Then recreate the character at level 10, and run an appropriately lower-level adventure. Or start at level 12, then run one at level 10 or 11, to see how he got to level 12 to begin with.

-- Ben

[Bruce Baugh]

Oooh. Drool. *scribbles notes*

More. Now. :)

[Mike Holmes]

So would you throw out the EXP system as a whole (or have you already done so)? How would you "devolve" the character? Simply keep a record of the character at each level as you generate it? Or would you have some system for just starting with a 20th level character, and some means to back calculate.

One big advantage of this system would be that you could play any modules you have, and just change the character levels to match.

Another interesting thing would be continuity. If I do not have a +4 sword, at 20th level, but then go back to 15th and aquire one, would you require an explanation for it's dissapearance, or just leave it unexplained? What about for wounds (this would be more problematic in a world that had less healing)?

Mike

[AmarPK]

*snip*

Another interesting thing would be continuity. If I do not have a +4 sword, at 20th level, but then go back to 15th and aquire one, would you require an explanation for it's dissapearance, or just leave it unexplained? What about for wounds (this would be more problematic in a world that had less healing)?

Mike

You could make "continuity snapshots" of events, possessions, relationships, etc. that exist at various points in a character's timeline.  Differences in snapshots (e.g., the loss of that +4 sword between 15th and 20th level) can form the basis of adventures.  (You know, I can't remember if something like this was in Sorcerer & Sword or not...probably was).

[Ben Morgan]

So would you throw out the EXP system as a whole (or have you already done so)? How would you "devolve" the character? Simply keep a record of the character at each level as you generate it? Or would you have some system for just starting with a 20th level character, and some means to back calculate.

This is where the 'half-formed' nature of the idea comes in. I'm working on tackling this issue right now. I considered tossing the XP system, as it doesn't really support the kind of play I'd be looking for anyway. I know lots of people have come up with alternate XP schemes, so I'll research those and see what emerges.

The problem with this whole thing is that it will inevitably become the "refrigerator-to-microwave" thing. How far along do I get before it's better to simply toss out the remaining D&D trappings and call it a different game?

You could make "continuity snapshots" of events, possessions, relationships, etc. that exist at various points in a character's timeline. Differences in snapshots (e.g., the loss of that +4 sword between 15th and 20th level) can form the basis of adventures. (You know, I can't remember if something like this was in Sorcerer & Sword or not...probably was).

This, in my mind, is exactly what a character sheet is for. Especially one so detailed as a d20 sheet (and even I have a difficult time designing one that doesn't look like a tax form).

But I like the idea of exploring how a character has a nifty magical item, and then loses it somewhere between 15th and 20th level. Seems to me you could build whole stories on that sort of thing. The great thing about a fantasy setting is that this can be [nearly-]plausibly done with nearly any aspect of the character. In fact, one of the things I want to highlight is how characters can lose not only items but abilities as well from one point in time to the next. This then becomes character development, not simply character advancement.

It also just occurred to me that this might work even better in a game like Donjon. But that's an even less-formed idea.

-- Ben

[AmarPK]

Ben, I don't have the book with me, but I'm sure this non-linear roleplaying stuff is in Sorcerer & Sword.  So I suggest checking that supplement out.  Also, using a system like Sorcerer (or Donjon) would definately involve less game-statistical work in making the various time-coded character sheets for a single character versus a system like d20.  That way, you could focus less on the game-stat deltas and more on the other changes (relationships, special possessions, personality, etc.) that change over the course of the character's life.

Still, it would be interesting to try that style of play in D&D....

[Ben Morgan]

Ben, I don't have the book with me, but I'm sure this non-linear roleplaying stuff is in Sorcerer & Sword. So I suggest checking that supplement out. Also, using a system like Sorcerer (or Donjon) would definately involve less game-statistical work in making the various time-coded character sheets for a single character versus a system like d20. That way, you could focus less on the game-stat deltas and more on the other changes (relationships, special possessions, personality, etc.) that change over the course of the character's life.

Very true. As I said, trying to make a refrigerator into a microwave. That's why it never really progressed beyond the casual thought stage. Energy would be better spent on trying to incorporate this idea into a system of my own devising in which the rest of the system components directly supported this. I'll have to get my Sorcerer books back from my friend and read up on this again.

But it was a nifty idea. And I'm happy any time I can think of something that subverts the d20 system in any way. For me, that was part of the appeal for the early versions of Donjon (since then it's grown into a fantastic game in its own right).

-- Ben

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Ben,

I suggest (using insights from Sorcerer and Sword) doing something like this at:

http://www.anvilwerks.com/docs/thereandback/

I use the continuity snapshot method there, as well.

[Ben Morgan]

Doh! I'd forgotten about that one. Thanks.

-- Ben

[Paul Czege]

So would you throw out the EXP system as a whole (or have you already done so)? How would you "devolve" the character?

In the spirit of real gamism, you could run a little EXP economy that's independent of the game world timeline. When you flash forward in the timeline, allow players to borrow EXP toward a surge in level advancement, however much they wish, with the understanding that they'll be paying some rate of interest on it. From then, until the loan is paid off, net EXP gain is less than gross. Flash back to the past, and the character can take a reduction in level and loan his EXP for some rate of interest. He'll still be paying interest toward his debt from EXP earned, but he might get lucky and before flashing forward again make enough in interest on what he loaned to pay off his debts in advance. At any point, if a character flashes forward further than they've ever been, they have to either not advance from the highest level they've held, or they have to borrow. If this happens before they've paid off the debt for a prior loan, then the interest rate that applies to them for additional borrowing is increased.

Paul