What is the next great evolution in RPG design?

[greyorm]

EDIT: This cross-posted with Kester's Apology and his following posts.

I take serious issue with your "Respond to my thread, or you're a weenie!" attitude, Kester. This is the second time you've polled for responses when your initial question did not result in a furious debate or discussion.

Realize that what you believe to be the next great debate might not hold any interest or be so vague or full of assumption as to be undiscussable.

I, personally, think the question here is...well, inane. If we knew where RPGs were going, we'd be there already. It's like asking, "What new technologies do you see emerging in ten years time?" or "What television show do you plan to be watching on Wednesday nights in five years?"

Nobody can know the answer, and guesses are usually sadly incorrect. Especially given something that is wholly system and design like an RPG.
I'd prefer to deal with current "technologies" that can actually be worked with and discussed usefully.

In fact, the only question that is useful in this sort of discussion is, "What design are you working on right now?" and "What do you want a system to do that a current system doesn't?"

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings Mr. Edwards,

I'm not half as concerned about the evolution of rpgs as I am about the evolution of the rpg gamer.  The level of awareness among gamers as to the possibilities offered by existing games (and I suppose games yet to be designed) needs a severe boost.  I consider The Forge to be a nice comfy ray of light shining down upon the path out of the gaming dark ages.

That *is* a interesting statement.  Would you agree then that, perhaps, there exists a erroneous misconception amongst most gamers that once a game ceases to be published and supported that it is no longer worth playing?

I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing more people talking about the fun they had playing their favorite *old* game, rather than complaining about how the rules fail to do this thing or the rules don't quite display that level of realism.  Or is it just me?

I mean, after all, we still play Monopoly and Chess, right?

And those games are far older than RPGs.

Definitely something to think about!


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings greyorm,

In fact, the only question that is useful in this sort of discussion is, "What design are you working on right now?" and "What do you want a system to do that a current system doesn't?"

Questions that one coudl assume were implicit in my rather general questions.

So, greyorm, what game(s) are you working on now?

What type of system do you plan to implement for use in it, and how did you come to choose that system over the others extant at this time?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Mike Holmes]

I've noted many people speak of the innovations in games like Donjon, Universalis, and Elfs (hope I remembered that right).  But do games like this form a trend that will be followed or are they merely unique games that will probably be underappreciated by the larger gaming hobby?

Probably not.

What becomes trends isn't what's innovative, usually, but what's flashy. The next big trend will, as usual, follow novelty and fashion rather than simple innovation. Thus the huge fascination with Clix. It doesn't really work all that well, and it's nothing new in terms of rules, etc. But what it is, is something neat and new that's visually based. And that's what sells.

Perhaps if someone can figure out how to bring sex to RPGs, in a non-nerdy, non-pornographic way (i.e. not Xenophile or Fatal), that could be the next big thing.

Mike

Edited in: Oops, wait, that was Vampire, wasn't it? ;-)

[Le Joueur]

The future?

We'll stop making D&D clones and calling them mainstream; we'll take mainstream

and make games of it!

We'll junk the 'game store' concept and create something like a coffee house with gaming in it!

Networked console games will finally add enough social interaction to catch up with MUDs and MUSHes.  (I love .Hack//Sign!)

We'll get beyond DFK and finally develop games that aren't just resolution systems, they'll be social activity games!

We'll get beyond this idea that it has to be printed and on a shelf to be a 'legitimate game.'

People will engage in role-playing games without having a pretext of civil war reenactment, creative anachronism, or sexual aberration.

Kids will come out of a theatre saying 'how kewl' a certain character was and be able to be playing it as a game before they get to the parking lot.

Someone will finally make a Collectible Card Game that is both very much a role-playing game and popular with Magic: the Gathering collectors.

People will take roles they're familiar with to new and 'unsafe' arenas using role-playing games without thinking their going to screw up their own psychology or go kill people or have to learn something.

Deep within the heart of the digital age, people will discover how much fun it is to sit down, in person, with other people and use their imaginations together.  (No tools, cheats or otherwise.)

People will find it possible to use role-playing games as a healthy alternative to a life that cannot have (it'll work for more than just handicapped kids, y'know).

People who can't write their way out of a paper bag will be able to enjoy the feeling of creating something really good 'with a little help from their friends.'

Someone will create a visual stimuli rig based on reflectivity to project realtime three-dimensional illusions onto your retinas so that you can do something you never tried before, just for the sake of doing it.

I'll be a millionaire.[/list:u]Who can say what the future will truly bring?  Who predicted Vampire LARPGs?  Heroclix?  Collectible card games?  Who knows what will 'catch?'  Certainly not me.

Fang Langford

p. s. But I really like that last one.

[edit: to add one and correct speelings!]

[C. Edwards]

Hey Kester,

Kester wrote:

Would you agree then that, perhaps, there exists a erroneous misconception amongst most gamers that once a game ceases to be published and supported that it is no longer worth playing?

I don't know if that misconception exists amongst most gamers, but it definitely exists.  Really, I don't see that as being as large a problem as that of the many gamers not willing or able to accept and explore new game designs, formats, and presentations.

-Chris

[greyorm]

So, greyorm, what game(s) are you working on now?

"Orx" and "Ninja Kitty, Samurai Dog" are the two full games I'm working on. I'm also finishing development on two supplements for Sorcerer, each semi-divergent in certain aspects from the main rules.

What type of system do you plan to implement for use in it, and how did you come to choose that system over the others extant at this time?

Orx uses a die-scale system: that is, your effectiveness is measured in the size of the die you have to roll. It was originally designed to model the idea of becoming less effective at any task the more effort you put into it and failed at: that is, a failure in combat results in injury; but you can have social "failures" as well, which leave you feeling 'off' for the rest of the day; and intellectual failures, where you just feel more and more stupid, and keep doing dumber things, being more forgetful, etc.

That's obviously an over-simplification of the whole system, but AFAIK, there is nothing similar to this system out there. Likely because I designed the system to support how the game should play. As the system is designed for the game, this explains why I chose it over anything else.

[b_bankhead]

I think we're going to see a lot more RPGs like Monopoly.

No, I'm not kidding.

I agree, a Monopoly like rpg would fit the profile of the rpg playstyle I have derived in my upcoming essay "Rpg Structure and Issues of Recruitment".

[quozl]

I think we're going to see a lot more RPGs like Monopoly.

No, I'm not kidding.

I agree, a Monopoly like rpg would fit the profile of the rpg playstyle I have derived in my upcoming essay "Rpg Structure and Issues of Recruitment".

Very cool.  When can I read your essay?

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings greyorm,

So, greyorm, what game(s) are you working on now?

"Orx" and "Ninja Kitty, Samurai Dog" are the two full games I'm working on. I'm also finishing development on two supplements for Sorcerer, each semi-divergent in certain aspects from the main rules.

Have to ask.

What's "Ninja Kitty, Samurai Dog" like?

I can sort of guess what it might be about based on the title, which I have to admit intrigues me, but I might be wrong.

I'm thinking: A fun light hearted tongue in check kind of game.

Close?


Kind Regards,

Kester "loving that game's name" Pelagius

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings,

I think we're going to see a lot more RPGs like Monopoly.

No, I'm not kidding.

I agree, a Monopoly like rpg would fit the profile of the rpg playstyle I have derived in my upcoming essay "Rpg Structure and Issues of Recruitment".

Are we talking a fixed board RPG or a pseudo-board game, perhaps one with tiles that can be placed on the table top to create the environment?

*searching memory for examples*

Ah, ok... will it be more like Hero Quest or Magic Realm?  Or did you perhaps envision something more along the lines of Talisman?




Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[quozl]

Are we talking a fixed board RPG or a pseudo-board game, perhaps one with tiles that can be placed on the table top to create the environment?

*searching memory for examples*

Ah, ok... will it be more like Hero Quest or Magic Realm?  Or did you perhaps envision something more along the lines of Talisman?

Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

I have no idea why any of that would make a difference.  Could you explain what you have in mind?

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings greyorm,

What type of system do you plan to implement for use in it, and how did you come to choose that system over the others extant at this time?

Orx uses a die-scale system: that is, your effectiveness is measured in the size of the die you have to roll. It was originally designed to model the idea of becoming less effective at any task the more effort you put into it and failed at: that is, a failure in combat results in injury; but you can have social "failures" as well, which leave you feeling 'off' for the rest of the day; and intellectual failures, where you just feel more and more stupid, and keep doing dumber things, being more forgetful, etc.

That's obviously an over-simplification of the whole system, but AFAIK, there is nothing similar to this system out there. Likely because I designed the system to support how the game should play. As the system is designed for the game, this explains why I chose it over anything else.

Can't think of anything like what you've outlined.  The closest I've seen, and which I have a skeleton system in place (though I can't recall where I got the idea for it, but I am sure it didn't originate with me) is to associate specific polyhedrals with power effects based on character type.  Which I am pretty sure is not at all what you mean so, yep, sounds original to me.

Sounds like you are emulating a complex social structure, or rather a parody of one perhaps?  (Ergo: Orx?)

If I may, what were your influences for deciding on this particular game premise?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings quozl,

Are we talking a fixed board RPG or a pseudo-board game, perhaps one with tiles that can be placed on the table top to create the environment?

*searching memory for examples*

Ah, ok... will it be more like Hero Quest or Magic Realm?  Or did you perhaps envision something more along the lines of Talisman?

I have no idea why any of that would make a difference.  Could you explain what you have in mind?

How odd.

Simple answer: Because it would affect style of play, method of play, goal orientation, and affect what is possible within the confines of the game (meaning the field of play).

To grossly oversimplify:  Monopoly is, in effect, a modified race game.  It has been overlayed with an abstract element which allows the game to continue without having a set 'finish' while yet retain an 'end goal'; thus allowing for the illusion that the game is open ended.  A basic premise which has been applied in numerous ways over the years, the most pertinent to FRPGs perhaps being the game King's Bounty.

Magic Realm uses large hex tiles to establish a 'board' that serves as the environment of play whereas Talisman and Heroes Quest use fixed boards, meaning they are static and, for the most part, unchanging.  Yet despite this they do allow for a certain degree of customising and randomness that games like Monopoly, Pachesi, and Snakes & Ladders lack.  But they, unlike games like King's Bounty or Wizard of Firetop Mountain could be classified as RPGs.  Well, for sure Heroes Quest could, I may be thinking of Dragonquest where Talisman is concerned.

But the point being that each game provides for its own unique set up, some have static boards, some use tiles, and each have a set of rules that affect how the game is played and what can be done within the context of the game.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[quozl]

But the point being that each game provides for its own unique set up, some have static boards, some use tiles, and each have a set of rules that affect how the game is played and what can be done within the context of the game.

Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

I see.  While that is all very interesting, that isn't what I meant when I said that I think we'll see more RPGs like Monopoly.  What I meant was I think we'll see more RPGs where the level of character identification is more like Monopoly, in other words "me but I have superpowers" which is like in Monopoly where I play "me but I'm a greedy property baron". The "props" make the identification easier but are not necessary as any self-identified roleplayer can tell you.

I apologize for the miscommunication.  From your prior statement, I thought you had read my thoughts on Monopoly in the "What are RPGs?" thread.  Please let me know if this is still unclear to you.