Layout Question

[jburneko]

So, my hardcover copy of Sorcerer arrived and I've been reading it over the last few days and there's something about the organization that I just don't get.  Many reviews have complained about this fact as well.

So chapters 1, 2 and 3 introduce the core mechanics, how to create a sorcerer and how to create a demon.

Then all of a sudden we have chapter 4 which is an explination about how to play the game complete with GM and Player tips.

And then it's back to chapters 5 and 6 which explain the actual mechanics of Sorcerery, Combat and Every Thing Else.  

And we finish up with chapter 7 as an example setting.

Why is chapter 4 stuck in the middle like that?  Wouldn't the more logical order have been: 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 4, 7?

This ultimately has little impact on actual game play I'm sure but it makes for a rather jaring read.  I'm just curious as to why the chapters are ordered so strangely?

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

Jesse,

It's a matter of familiarity, in my opinion.

We're used to two forms of RPG organization.

1. character creation, combat system, magic system, other dangerous stuff mechanics, bestiary, setting/play.

2. setting, character creation, general system, combat system, magic system, play stuff, more setting.

[liberally coat either of the former with color text, e.g. fiction snippets, especially #2]

Fine, we're USED to these. But do they REALLY express, in the necessary order, the concepts needed for play? I don't think so. In fact, I think both of them are fairly silly, for Narrativist purposes. For a Narrativist game with its emphasis on character-driven conflict and story, I decided a whole new organization was necessary.

I chose to do it this way: Premise and system, character creation, play stuff, magic, combat, theme [with optional setting]

I wanted - and have wanted for a long time, as a consumer - to have the material about what to fuckin' DO be established before the details (especially picky ones) of the mechanics are laid out. Sure, the system is a big deal, as I don't want to be wondering about it, so it's handled right away. But for all the nuances of magical hoo-ha, I'll get to that once I get it straight what the whole point is.

I suggest that the jarring feeling you're describing is a matter of what you're used to, not an actual break in the logic of the order of presentation.

Best,
Ron

Best,
Ron

[jburneko]

On 2001-09-05 13:33, Ron Edwards wrote:

I suggest that the jarring feeling you're describing is a matter of what you're used to, not an actual break in the logic of the order of presentation.

Thanks for clearing that up.  The logic makes sense now.  I also think your stated suggestion above is probably correct.  Since the jar doesn't come from three flowing into to four but rather in the flow from four to five.  I think that when I reached the end of four there's a part of me that expected that to be the end but all of a sudden I found myself plummeting back into heavy rules and mechanics.  There's a part of me going, "What?  Wait?  You just finished telling me how to play the game?  Shouldn't I be off playing now?"

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

Jesse,

This thread itched at me a bit more, so I decided to continue with it. I thought a bit about my mind-set at the time of writing and organization, and here's what I remembered.

I remembered that Sorcerer was written for either player or GM to read. It seems to me that many RPG books are written to one or the other, usually for the GM. One of my most important design notions for the game was to disrupt that age-old assumption that the GM and book are one unit, and the players are another. The organization, especially the material in Ch.4, is intended to break the age-old assumption that all a player need do is (a) arrange the points or rolls on the PC sheet and (b) know how to hit things and cast spells.

So Chapter 4 is not for GMs. It's for everyone. These are elements of play, just as in Chapter 1, that everyone should know about and be interested in even before making up PCs. As a player, I should be attentive and interested about back-stories and sorcerous technicalities; I make a Kicker in full knowledge that it will lead into such things.

Also, and related, the logic of the organization relies on what you ought to know prior to a given chapter - if you read Ch.1, then Chs.2-3 are a snap; if you have them down, then Ch.4 gives you an orientation about actually playing. Then Chs.5-6 are about mechanics that are necessary to play, but not necessary to know in order to grasp Ch.4. *In other words, the Ch.4 stuff is MORE important then "how to hit" stuff.* Finally, Ch.7 is for when you have all the rest under your belt and ask, "So what?" (and in many ways really dives into answering the bigger questions posed in Ch.1).

The goal is to emphasize, via the positioning and content of Ch.4, that actual play should be on one's mind prior to nailing down every last mechanic. This mode of thinking about RPGs and reading them is unusual - but it's a big deal for me.

Best,
Ron