Threads of Destiny

[MathiasJack]

When a Weaver dies, they attribute their gaining life back to one of the Three Aspects, which becomes their primary stat:

FATALISTS

You almost died, and you want to do everything in your power to keep that from happening again. Fate deemed it was not your time, so you bend every bit of you to finding out everything about Fate. You begin to sense the paths the Cosmos takes to keep itself in order, and you can manipulate those paths to some degree. Almost like the universe has become a tree, and with careful pruning and cutting, by knowing Fate you can control everything. With enough control, enough knowledge, you might never have to die. The biggest problem in this new existence is the fact that what gives you the ability to read the threads of Destiny, to learn the future, requires you to place yourself exactly where you don't want to be: vulnerable to death.

Fatalists work towards predictable order, definitions, and knowing the secrets of everyone. They want to know the Mind of God, practicing what many call the God-Mind. Priestlike, sagelike, they have the stereotype of the hoods and books of their Medieval secret brotherhoods. They can deal with Ancestor Ghosts the easiest.

ECSTATICS

Death was a throttling moment of panic, of total helplessness, then near oblivion, but in coming back, it was the greatest rush. You thrill in coming as close as possible to that helpless point, yet always come back. If you do make it back or not, you know is not up to you. The universe is an unpredictable ball of random forces and particles bouncing off of each other in chaotic ways. By getting in touch with those dynamic tides, you start being able to push the flow of coincedence and chance in your favor. And the more you push, the bigger rush, and you dance ever closer to the edge: you just know you have to alway come back to enjoy once again.

Ecstatics don't appear to work towards anything except their next chance to lose it all. Shamanlike, tricksterlike, they have the stereotype of the wild wide eye glem of the junkie, the mystic drugging out on visions. They deal with Spirits the easiest.

THE FREE

You were dead, but you know you couldn't let that happen. You clawed yourself back to your next breath, and spit in the center of that damn light at the end of the tunnel. No one or thing was going to keep you from living what you had to finish in this life. You choose your own path, and it has nothing to with bad luck. You gain a sense of purpose and meaning by going after what goals you have set. With all this determination, you've gained a sense of the obstacles in your way, manipulating them in different ways to stay away. Abilities and hidden potentials seem to bloom within you, as you let nothing stand in your way, especially death.

The Free work towards their own agendas. These agendas can be very self sacrificing, and with the Free flaunting themselves in front of Fate and Luck, have developed the stereotype of the Hero, as in Hercules or Conan.

[MathiasJack]

After reading your last post, Spooky, I think I am definitely agreeing. I think I wanted those whole elements of magic wielding to the game. Part of being a Shaman is having the death experience, and I attempting to use F/W/L as the basis for a magic system. But part of the grittiness I want to have is accomplished by keeping Weavers very human in the ways they do things. At times I think I envision this game as more like Nobolis, other times more like Unknown Armies. That's a dychotomy that needs fixing, otherwise it will be like the game has two personalities. I think by keeping the supernatural "kewl powerz" more innate and subtle, then the whole F/W/L dynamic takes procedence over the idea of being able to wield magic. It needs clarifying, but with your feedback, I feel it is moving in the right direction...

[Spooky Fanboy]

Like I said previously, any help and/or collaboration you need, let me know. ;-)

The whole "magic" thing just didn't sit well with me, because it didn't quite fit the sources of inspiration you'd listed. In "Unbreakable," Bruce's 'fate-sense' of who did wrong (or was about to) wasn't done as a ritual; it was just something he could do. If players want their characters to do magic rituals to make things happen, they sould, but I don't want it to be necessary.

The more I see of this game, the more I like. Granted, the whole "immortality" thing kinda flies in the face of what we know about biology, but considering the fact that we don't know of anyone who's avoided all those 'accidents of life' like cancer, disease, untimley or timely death, etc. we still don't really know just how long a human body can live, do we?

I like the fact that Fatalists hovered over dying people to absorb more Fate, thus giving us our Grim Reaper myth. Also, how the character reacted to his moment of death setting the tone for how he explores the rest of his life.

[Spooky Fanboy]

by the way, how are you doing experience?

I ask because I had an idea. Please let me know what you think.

One of the reasons Benders/Weavers don't take over the world (among the others discussed here) is that they really only get their special aspect of how the world operates right. Fatalists focus on Fate, Ecstatics focus on Luck, and the Free focus on Will to the exclusion of the other two.

The best way to emphasize that, IMO (and it is just my two cents; take it as you will) would be in the experience system.

Fatalists have a minor problem (how is best determined by mechanics) with increasing Will and a significant problem with increasing Luck. Why? Because deep down, they don't believe that Will has all that much of an impact if Fate isn't with you, and Luck is capricious at best and nonexistant at worst. Because they don't put much faith in either one, it's difficult for them to really develop them.

The opposite is true for Ecstatics: they have minor problems developing Will and significant problems developing their uncerstanding of Fate. Will can only go so far in an unpredictable universe, and Fate is kind of a joke.

The Free choose either Fate or Luck to be of minor difficulty, and the other one by default becomes significantly difficult. This depends on their personality; do they see a place for randomness in the universe, or do they tend to think that, in most circumstances, things tend to operate as they should?

[MathiasJack]

I definitely agree with how you put the different "colors" of how a Fatalist, an Ecstatic, or a Free One go about weaving and bending Destiny as something more along the lines of all three doing the same thing but with different perspectives and acts.

Yet I do see magic bleeding into the perspectives at least a little bit. Maybe not to the degree of the demigods of Nobolis (have I been spelling that right?), but at least in how the Weavers see it going about.

Fatalists usually work their weaving of Fate in long rituals, but any Weaver using Fate "magic" tends to take longer than using Will or Luck. They are attempting to work with Fate, so much of their time is spent studying and dwelling on the workings of Fate, to understand it and work along with it. Their rituals take time, and are built along certain rotes which require specific amounts of F/W/L. A mechanic I thought to help this would be any time a Weaver has a chance to make a draw, where they've earned a chance to replenish their stats, by spending a Fate, they can place that draw on hold. So by spending Fate, you can stock pile draws until you have worked enough along the paths of Fate to make a certain ritual work.
Another flavor of Fate "magic I also had the idea for was using Achetype Avatars, with the 21 major arcana of the tarot being the archetypes, where a Weaver could work within a Fate appropiate role for certain abilities, depending on the archetype. This so heavily mirrors Unknown Armies, I am not certain I am going to do this anymore, kind of disappointing.

Luck "magic" I saw as being instant flashes of illusion and perception tricks. Luck, when used by any Weaver, is the fastest of the three aspects, and can be added to spells to make them occur faster, though lower their "power" to closer and closer to illusionary with each upgrade in speed. You could power up Luck magic to be more real, more effective, more destructive, with Fate, but  with it's unpredictable nature, it is highly dangerous. You never really know if Luck magic is going to work in your favor or not, I'm talking like a 40% chance of working, 30% chance of failure, 30% chance of hurting the Weaver. So it is much safer to keep it at it's illusionary status. I saw Luck magic as being the true magic of the game, versus the ritualistic ponderous nature of Fate. Ecstatics or those who use Luck for magic, are like manic shamans, wielding the force of change in the universe.

Will "magic" doesn't even appear like such. Free One's see their "spells" as innate abilities, where rituals and spells are for those others who crutch themselves on the Cosmic forces. You will something to happen, and it does. Like Willis's character, it was more a process of realizing what he was capable of than anything else. A Free One attempts to continuely push themselves beyond their own mental obstacles. A Weaver could spend a Will point to raise any stat, skill or ability for that specific action. Spend enough Will, anything is possible.

While I like the flavor described above which I want to keep, I am now looking at keeping magic more low key, slight advantages unless you push yourself to an extreme of an aspect (along with it's issues though). Nothing world shattering.

[MathiasJack]

I originally saw there being more like 6 different types of generic Weavers rather then just three. I presented it as three for simplicity, but now I'll get more indepth.

The above post showing the three major personality types represent the character's primary trait. But the characters also choose a secondary trait. This colors their world view once again, but more in slight shades and tones.

A Fatalist who chooses Luck as their secondary trait is more obsessed with the Endings of Fate, with Death. The touch of changing Chaos with Fate is entropy, the universe working slowly towards a grand poof, then Oblivion. Entropic Fatalists tend to be more obsessed with Death, endings and slow decay.

A Fatalist who chooses Will as their secondary trait is more obsessed with the Order of Fate, with control. They still see Fate as the ultimate say, but they think that if they understand Fate well enough, that they can set up events in their favor. Demogogue Fatalists tend to be more obsessed with Order, perfection, and stasis.

An Ecstatic who chooses Fate as their secondary trait is more obsessed with the nature of Change of Luck. They still see the Cosmos as a random haphazard thing, but they become fascinated with the evolution and change for it all. Morphic Ecstatics tend to be more obsessed with Change and mutations.

An Ecstatic who chooses Will as their secondary trait is more obsessed with the beginnings of things. The new spark of imagination, a new birth of something the Cosmos has not seen before. Neo Ecstatics tend to be more obsessed with Newness, beginnings, and imagination.

A Free One who chooses either Fate or Luck doesn't really alter their world view too much. It is a slight favoring of one of the Cosmic forces over the other. Ultimately, a Free One depends on nothing but themselves, but maybe they see either randomless or fateful meaning as the more powerful or useful.

A character's tritary aspect is weak to almost neutral. One could almost see it as the weak chink in a Weaver's armor. It increases the slowest, and they can use it the least effectively. Other Weavers can use their tritary trait against them.

Next: Immortality...

[MathiasJack]

Immortallity is a tricky subject in Threads of Destiny (oh, I want something more flavorful). All humans have it, we could all live forever. But the forces of Fate and Luck grind away on us, and our own ignorance of what we are capable blunts our given potential. Weavers, by manipulating Fate, Will and Luck to thier own ends can potentially gain the holy Grail of Immortality, but at the risk of continuously leaving themselves vulnerable to F/W/L in gaining those manipulations. Weavers who gain this balance tend to be ancient, hidden, rare monsters, deadly face to face and if they choose to target you for their agendas, but ineffective in world-spanning powers.

Entropic Fatalists age slowly, but aging never stops. The oldest Entropics are wizened skeletons with transparent skin, Death incarnate.

Demogogue Fatalists gain perfection in the bodies, until the bodies of these beings become smooth, featureless humaniod shapes. Alien and inhuman, their pursuit of perfection in Fate and control has made them strange.

Morphic Ecstatics never stop aging, but neither do they seem to age. In fact, their bodies appear to shift into different features over time. A morphic Ecstatic you knew 20 years ago might have been a Buffy-esque model for lingerie, but you didn't recognize her as the brunette body-builder last time you saw her ten years ago, or as the Willow-esque bookish librarian now.

Neo Ecstatics tend to sometimes to get younger at times, but that effect is unpredictable at best with time marching forward. They seem to hover in their age range, maybe being five years younger, then appearing the age of their trigger years later.

Free Ones age normally, but always seem to be at their prime, how ever that is defined by the character.  Many of the Free Ones, once at peace with their dreams and goals, let go of life naturally, usually in their sleep. The rare ones who hold on become healthy specimens of senior centizens, like Dustin Hoffman in Little Big Man at 124 years old. Some rare ones who become more of aware of thier unique natures stop aging, but remain human looking. Free Ones usually have a heroic inspiring feel to them, even when they don't look like your stereotypical hero, like Dustin Hoffman (once again he comes up!) in the movie Hero.

Immortality is extremely uncommon in the game, and for the characters to even meet a Weaver who has lived for centuries will be rare.

Next Post: Improving characters with Experience

[Spooky Fanboy]

Immortallity is a tricky subject in Threads of Destiny (oh, I want something more flavorful).

If it was up to me, I'd call it Everyday Miracles: a Game of Quiet Wonder and Laughing in the Face of Death.  Because to me, from what I'm hearing form you, that's what this game is about.

Everyday Miracles: Anyone can do them, no matter how impossible they seem, and they don't in most cases even look unusual, unless you know what to look for. But they are miracles, none the less.

Quiet Wonder: You can't explain what you're seeing to someone who doesn't know, you can't tell them how precious and unique a human life is, unless they've been where you've been and had the blindfold ripped off their eyes the way you have.

Laughing in the Face of Death: It could mean an Ecstatic's taunting of death, or a Fatalist's welcoming of a long-delayed friend...

By the way, I like where this game is going. I may not agree with all of it, but there's a lot of cool stuff I'm seeing.

[Spooky Fanboy]

Okay, now I have to ask: how's this been coming along? Any new examples for me to drool over, er, critique? Or did you decide to go back to formula on this one? What's next on the agenda?

[MathiasJack]

Well, I was thinking I was getting ahead of myself. I've looked over my notes, ideas, our discussions on here. And I feel like I have two games going on.

One is as your title suggests, Everyday Miracles. The people with in its premise are still mortal. They can bend, weave, ever so slightly Fate, Luck or Will. But everything is in sublte nudges. It is gritty, about the choices one makes when it seems like all the choices are available. One of the main themes is how does one face death, especially once a human can see the forces that bring home mortality.

The other takes the ideas of the above and pushes its luck. It runs amok with the mechanics I have ideas about, and drives the game from individual fights of mortality and destiny to the cosmic level. From puppets to, if not the puppet master, then at least the characters become strings. The players become avatars of Destiny, and have a group of characters to manipulate and push forward, all without a GM. Fate, Luck and Will become the basis for the cosmic balance, magic, and fighting it all.

So what does that leave me. Before I read Unknown Armies, I had some ideas that these games could be in the same world, just different levels of awareness. Maybe that is possible, it just seems like a rip off of the street, world, cosmos levels as presented in Unknown Armies. Maybe I should not worry about color for a while.

So I think I am going to focus on mechanics for a bit. I'll post Experience next like I said I would a few days ago.

[MathiasJack]

I've got a couple of ideas of how a character improves, all of them happening within play rather than earning "experience points" as players and adding them to the character. They're intermingled with several other ideas, but they all are:
1) Filling the three stats
2) Stat extremes
3) Expenditure reprecussions
4) Special draws
5) Descriptive moments

1) Filling the three stats:
The ideas here are that maybe a character gets to increase a when stats reach certain levels. What I see is when all the stats are full, the character gets a new point to add to one of the stats. This seems to come too easily, but I think with some sophistication might become something.

2) Stat extremes:
Paranoia, Obsession, and Isolation, respectfully. The idea here is that a new stat point is earned when a character experiences a new height of an extreme, that specific extreme adding to that specific stat. Again, this is a shallow idea that has merit for something more sophisticated.

1&2) Both 1 and 2 are closely related, since I see extremes experienced when a stat is closer to being full. These two ideas are interesting tangents that I think lead elsewhere than stat increases, so I'll keep them around for something other than experience increases.

3) Expenditure reprecussions:
I am working on the whole F/L/W reprecussions as seen in Final Destination and mentioned by Spooky earlier. I'm seeing this as based on what the character spends and/or what they have stocked. Maybe only certain actions cause "bleed", though I see "bleed" occuring no matter what the character does when they spend F/L/W. I don't want this to be some sort of MtA paradox. So how does this involve experience? I'm thinking that if a character doesn't use F/L/W, then they don't have to worry about "bleed". But by pushing oneself to the point of "bleed", then the character earns a point to add to that specific stat that the character "bled" in. This idea intrigues me, fitting well with the whole idea that the easiest way to earn new F/L/W to fill stats is by interacting with other Weavers, and the whole social aspect of avoiding "bleed" by being socially conscious. Starts creating some real nice contradictions of motivation...

4) Special draws:
I've also been thinking that when ever a draw is made, you get a new stat point when ever you pull out all of the same stone. So, say you are making a Luck draw (the most common) for 4 stones, and you happen to pull all 4 Luck. You get a new stat point to add to Luck. The same would go for the other two stats.

5) Descriptive moments:
Roleplaying of course should be stressed more than any simple mechanic trigger. Clever ideas, witty banter, cracking up the whole group or making them get weepy, all deserve experience. This method usually dictates a GM, but I have some ideas about that for the cosmic level.

I also have open  range of knowledges, talents and skills that wind up under F/L/W respectfully in that order. And they might increase by one of the follow methods above.

Ultimately, I see characters not really growing in points of a stat and number of skills acquired, but more in what the character can do with their F/L/W. Different layers of trees, growing in multiple use - this of course plays more into my cosmic level game than my street level one.

Experience increase will probably use a few different methods of improving one's character. I don't see a problem as to using more than one method at a time. It is down to refining them and deciding which ones.

[MathiasJack]

So I think I might go with a new name. It is growing on me, but I still have my doubts, so I'll throw it out there.

FLaW
Fate, Luck and Will
Laughing in the Face of Death

I borrowed that last line from your suggestions, Spooky. And I've been thinking of calling Weaver or Benders FLaWs, as in "flaws in the web of destiny."  It has a certain ring....

What does anybody think?

[Spooky Fanboy]

As the name of the game, with the subtitle included, it has merit. It brings home the point that characters are, pretty much, aberrations in the flow of reality. Still, I don't know how much of a draw it will be to players looking for a game to play...

Calling the characters that directly...no. I tried to think what merits there are to referring to characters as "Flaws" explicitly...but I couldn't find any. "Benders" isn't much better (it's Drunk, the Roleplaying Game!), but I feel better referring to my character as a Bender than as a Flaw.  

I'm glad you don't want the effect to look like Mage's Paradox. Tying them to taking risks to improve stats is a good thing, very much in the tradition of Unknown Armies. I also like the idea of separating how "skilled" the character is in a stat versus how "far-reaching"/"powerful"/"cosmic" a character is in a stat. Obviously, you want the "cosmic" portion of it to go up more slowly than the "skill" portion.

How you'd do this, I'm not sure. What I know about the science and architecture of game mechanics and stats could fit into a thimble with enough room for the Grand Canyon to tuck in next to it. Anyone else on the Forums have any ideas to spare?