TROS and Birthright- Some conversion questions (long)

[r_callen221]

Hey guys~

    Well, I've started a campaign with the Birthright setting from TSR and, so far, everything's running well. However, I've had some inquiries made from some of my players and, well, that's why I'm here.

    A few months ago I picked up TROS and ran a game in Weryth (?) and it was a smashing success for all but one player. We had a great time sneaking into a castle and causing havok on a warring country and everyone loved the combat system (again, except for one person). When I started my Birthright campaign, a setting that I and my players soak up, everyone was content with using the ADnD second edition rules... until now. Out of our group of 6, four players want to convert to TROS after having a taste of it; one player complained that it was too much trouble to "try and survive every battle like my life depends on it" (I love the irony of that one), but I might still go ahead because of the feedback from the others. Anyway, my problem is fourfold, so I'll go ahead and ask:

1) For those of you who haven't heard of BR, its a campaign of kings and wizards and monsters (think Story of Ice and Fire on lsd) published by now-extinct TSR. I'm still wondering how to fight monsters in TROS... I know the book OBAM is coming out in about a month, so I'm *desperately* waiting for that to come out. Until then, though, has anyone tried to simulate monsters in their campaign? I'm interested in hearing about some experiences and how they turned out.

2) On the skill side of the game, in the previous game we played with TROS all of them were fighters one way or another. This time around I have a rogue who loves to slink around, and a cleric as well (which I know isn't in TROS per se, but I'm thinking of making him a fighter-based character with some granted powers from his god ). Can a character strongly rely on their skills based on TROS's skill system? Or would you recommend they still amp up on fighting skills to give them a chance?

3) Ah, magic. I know there has been a lot of discussion about this, and TROS's magic is my second largest problem. I've got a mage character who's focus is on the elements (water); she really likes the diverse flavor of magic in ADnD (so do I). She's up for going with TROS as well but wants to keep the focus of her character as it is in ADnD. Is this even possible? I've looked through it and I'm not so sure. But please, if anyone knows of a way to keep this character's focus on Elementalism, please let me know!

4) The last question is about massive warfare. I think I've heard that the Flower of Combat book-to-be has information on this, and I've got a side-system that can fill in the void for mass combat until then, but I'm still curious to whether anyone's tried to homebrew their own way of duking it out with hundreds of men in TROS.

    Well, there you have it. I'm trying to combine my fave setting with my fave system. For the most part it fits seemlessly (especially because BR has its own rules for ruling a kingdom, ect. that can be used with any system); just the items mentioned above are a bit shaky. Maybe I'm biting off more than I can chew, but I think its worth it. If anyone has feedback please let me know!

Thanks,

Charlie

P.S. [insert comment here] Shout-out to Jake Norwood, btw, for making an awesome game. My players thank you! Of course, thats more work for ME, but I like it too, so all is forgiven. :)

[Jake Norwood]

Charlie-

Thanks for the shout. Do a search on this forum to find more birthright threads, as it's come up a few times. Glad to hear you're rockin' it.

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

Gidday, welcome to the forum!

Before I start, I just want to say that Birthright is a pretty good setting to use TROS rules in, IMO. Certainly a better fit than most of the other DnD worlds.

I'm still wondering how to fight monsters in TROS...

Well, I have the advantage of having OBAM to refer to earlier than most other folk, so I'm perhaps not the best person to answer this. Still, even without OBAM it's not hard to "do" odd creatrures in TROS. You have to be fairly liberal with the hit locations (i.e. make them up on the spot) and you have to fluff rules like the kinds of attacks monsters might make, and venom and breath weapons and suchlike, but it's not that hard. Of course, if you can wait a while, OBAM covers all that and more.

Can a character strongly rely on their skills based on TROS's skill system? Or would you recommend they still amp up on fighting skills to give them a chance?

That depends a lot on how you focus your campaign. If you go into TROS expecting it to be like DnD, then it's going to feature a lot of combat, and those who don't focus on it will die. (This comment talks to your player comment of "I don't want to feel I'm fighting for my life every time I enter combat" too, by the way). TROS works best when the game is less about combat, but is more about the players (and features combat). Let their SA's drive you and your campaign, not only will they enjoy the game more because their characters are vested in what's happening, but they'll also learn not to fear combat quite as much because with SA's firing off anyone can be a fantastic fighter.

We have had games where nobody is a very good fighter but have amazing skills, and it works quite well IME.

Ah, magic

Aw jeez. There's as many opinions about magic in TROS as there are TROS players. Someone else will catch this one, I'm sure. For my part, all I'll say is that you can focusa on anyhting you like, if you're clever :-) It sounds to me that this player wont be satisfied with TROS magic though, you might therefore consider house-ruling it, perhaps shifting Mage's spheres into TROS (since it's already D10-pool based that shouldn't be too tricky).

The last question is about massive warfare

It's in progress (Jake and I are working on it) but yeah, don't expect much until TFOB. If you want something really detailed, I can't really help you yet, but if you're happy with something quick, tactics and/or strategy rolls by the respective commanders might not be a bad way to fudge things.

Shout-out to Jake Norwood, btw, for making an awesome game.

Yeah, that's a sentiment that gets expressed a lot around here. I never get sick of hearing it (on Jakes behalf) because you're right, it is an awesome game. If your players really want to show their support of course, you could encourage them to buy their own copy of the book each... ;-)

(and TWO copies each of OBAM *grin*)

Brian.

[hanschristianandersen]

TRoS Birthright?  Why didn't I think of that before!?!

Here's a few thoughts off the top of my head -

With regard to #3, perhaps you could create a new Sorcerous Flaw that imposes a SP penalty to any spells that do *not* incorporate an ice element?  I'm not hugely familiar with the magic system, but I'd guess that Sculpture/Intricacy 1 (basic geometric shapes) could add ice crystals to just about any Spell of Three.

With regard to #2, realize that spiritual attributes trump almost any mechanic in the system - in *and out* of combat.  In my game, I've seen five dice of SA's turn a competent but lackluster fighter into a powerful blade of vengeance... but I've also seen five dice of SA's turn an already gifted public speaker into an instant folk hero and demagogue.  Your rogue character, when doing something that directly aligns with his SA's, will be virtually invisible, a shadow among shadows... while the cleric, with faith and drive on his side, can accomplish pretty much anything that he sufficiently believes in.

[r_callen221]

Guys~

    Jake, I do apologize for not delving deeper into the forum for Birthright information. I jumped the gun a bit because I was stewing over these things at work for about 5 hours and just posted without thinking. So I will check for the other threads. Thanks for mentioning it.

    Brian, thanks for the inside information :). I'm pretty creative; I think I'm up to the challenge of making things up on the fly. Heck, I'm a DM; we do that stuff for a living! And thanks for the insight on the focus of the game, as well. Its easy to get wrapped up about making the game work for combat vs. making the combat system work for the game. The player that made the "fight for my life" statement is very used to bashing heads every other minute during play; I'm making my campaign much more intricate than that, with politics involved (not to WoD extent, but there is some) and warfare. Also, we've been playing for about a month now, and I'm pleased (and a bit surprised) that said player is enjoying the game; we haven't had direct combat yet, either.  

    Oh, and I don't mean for anyone to get started on the magic. :) I just had to say "Aww, magic" once in a posting at this forum; now I feel like one of the team! And as far as my players actually buying their own books instead of relying on me to carry that burden... I'll give you their email and you can talk with them about it. I'm amazed at the cheapness of my gaming group. But I do buy double with some group money, so I'll save up for TFOB and hopefully be able to pick up a couple.

    Hanschristiananderson, thanks for the information. I'll check up on the Sorcerous Flaw (I myself don't know much about the system either, having never used it in-game). As far as the spiritual attributes, I never thought of using them that way, as kind of an outside source providing power to the person (if I didn't mistake what you posted, that is). I'll definitely look into that as well.

    Thanks for the quick responses, guys. At this point (midnight) I'm rambling, so I'll get off before I tarnish my reputation in the forum. I appreciate the information!

G'night

Charlie

[Lance D. Allen]

If you want to try it, I'd say the biggest thing that needs to be changed from TRoS magic to most other systems is the cost of casting. I don't know of any other setting or system which ages the sorcerer, after all. Also, it might be worthwhile to have a new Vagary which creates a given element from nothing. Add this vagary to the existing ones for a plethora of D&D-like spell effects.

As for your cleric, the TRoS sorcery system is also workable, with some tweaking. For one, certain "rules" will have to be tossed, such as resurrection. Almost all of the clerical spells from D&D can be recreated using TRoS sorcery. For clerics, you'll just want to have their costs reflect the goals of their deity. Perhaps if they serve a god of life and light, they have reduced costs for life-giving spells, but increased costs for doing harm. Beyond that, whether it's sorcerous or divine is mostly a matter of color.

[r_callen221]

Guys~

    I've got one more question for ya, regarding magic.

    You see, I'm trying to do this conversion with BR in the midst of play (which the players don't mind and encourage because they like TROS), and I'm wondering if something like this will work for the wizard character IMC (to keep the flaver of the elementalist that she is):

    Stick with the spells on the spell list that she's memorized and make sure she has the correct Vagaries to simulate them, and allow her to learn more "spells" as she progresses, right from the ADnD books. By converting the spells and sticking with the spell level concept, we can stay her godlike magic to something a little more manageable for me ATM, and she can learn what its like to use the vagary system of casting, slowly breaking the mold of ADnD that she's used to. She liked the idea even though it limits her spellcaster by TROS perspective; she's all for keeping with her character concept.

    Along that line, I didn't think it was half bad. I also thought it would be interesting to see how that works with the other schools of magic by ADnD. I think it would put to the test the Vagaries' ability to cast any spell we want, and it would tone down the magic a bit, a BR trait.

    Before you groan about me trying to stay with ADnD, let me say this in defence: I'm trying to ease the conversion onto my players without totally throwing them out of whack with the game we're playing now (FYI, this is going to be an extended campaign lasting at least a few more months, if not a year or two, the longest we've ever played, which is why I'm trying to convert it in the first place. That's way too long w/o my TROS!). I think, after a bit of play and practice and learning the game, we'll all be able to use TROS's spell system from as was intended; for now, I'll sacrifice spellpower for campaign stability.

    Anyway, what do you think? Would this be doable? By reading the book, I'd say "sort of," but I've not had the chance to use the Vagary rules in play. If you have some experience, please hand out your opinion! This poor DM needs some advice else he gets lost in his own conversion.

Thanks,

Charlie

PS- Brian, thanks for the welcome. Most welcome! ;)

[Spartan]

3) Ah, magic. I know there has been a lot of discussion about this, and TROS's magic is my second largest problem. I've got a mage character who's focus is on the elements (water); she really likes the diverse flavor of magic in ADnD (so do I). She's up for going with TROS as well but wants to keep the focus of her character as it is in ADnD. Is this even possible? I've looked through it and I'm not so sure. But please, if anyone knows of a way to keep this character's focus on Elementalism, please let me know!

Well, I'm working on a TROS magic conversion for Hârn, which uses an elemental approach.  How I approached it was through the summoning vagary to summon "elemental principle" as well as the standard effects.  You can then apply the other vagaries to it such as Movement, Sculpture to produce specific spells.  Does that help?

-Mark

[r_callen221]

Mark~

    Definitely. Keep me posted! The magic IMC comes directly from nature so its only fitting that the elements play a very big part in the magic of my world. So yes, let me know if you intend to post it somewhere or share it with fellow forum ppl; I'll be in line. :)

Charlie

[Spartan]

So yes, let me know if you intend to post it somewhere or share it with fellow forum ppl; I'll be in line. :)

Well, here's my preliminary draft.  There will be forthcoming revisions according to Durgil's suggestions.  Keep in mind that Hârn-style magic is rather low-key compared to TROS and a lot of D&D settings, and I've incorporated that into my system.  I'm also getting rid of the aging mechanic, as it doesn't fit with the Hârn setting.

Good luck, and welcome to the forum! :)

-Mark

[r_callen221]

Mark~

    Thanks for the post and link to that; I think I'm going to try it out with my troupe. One thing I need help with, though- what do the terms mean? I've never played in Harn and don't recognize the words (e.g. Savorya, Fyvria). Are they the elements? I need it dumbed down for me :).

Charlie

[edit] One other thing. I know there has been discussion about using the Ars Magica spell system in TROS; how well does this work? The reason I'm asking is because I own Ars Magica (bought it on a whim; got some great deals from the website) and have never used it but really wanted to. Can the system there be ported into TROS?

    This isn't to take away what you've been doing, Mark. I'm interested in your interpretation and I'd like to stay within the boundaries of the book as printed. I just thought I might be able to put my $30 investment to work :)

[Spartan]

Mark~

    Thanks for the post and link to that; I think I'm going to try it out with my troupe. One thing I need help with, though- what do the terms mean? I've never played in Harn and don't recognize the words (e.g. Savorya, Fyvria). Are they the elements? I need it dumbed down for me :).

You're quite welcome. :)

Here's the lowdown on Hârnic convocations of the Shek Pvar:

Lyahvi: the magic of air, the insubstantial, the invisible and the illusory.  Lyahvi mages manipulate reflection, refraction, light and confusion.  They also can deal with etherial beings.

Peleahn: Peleahn manipulate heat smoke and fire.  They also deal with etherial fire, and the speeding up of metabolic processes.

Jmorvi: minerals, especially metal, the convocation of smiths.

Fyvria: the magic of the green and growing and of the pale and dying, the cycle of growth and decay of the natural world.  It is the convocation of living things.  Many healing magics are Fyvrian.

Odivshe: slowness, coolness, darkness and water.  Odivshe mages eal with ice, water, darkness and cold.

Savoyra: the magic of the mind.  They deal in aura, knowledge, spirit, though and concept and psionics.  They believe theses to be the greatest of all elements.

So in essence, they are (in order): Air, Fire, Metal, Earth, Water, and Mind.  Not quite Aristotelian, but they do the trick.

There is also neutral magic, which is the hub of the Pvaric wheel of the elements.  It is comprised of spells which affect other spells, interplanar travel, and anything else which doesn't fit into the other convocations.  Generally, a spell which combines more than one element is considered neutral.  Any mage can learn neutral spells, but only a Gray Mage can invent them.  Gray mages are those Shek Pvar (mages) that have learned to maipulate all elements with equal skill.  They are very rare.

Hope that helps!

-Mark

[r_callen221]

Mark~

    Just wondering, because you lowered the maximum vagary level and limit them per school, do you need to lower the overall proficiency level for starting characters as well?

Charlie

[Spartan]

Just wondering, because you lowered the maximum vagary level and limit them per school, do you need to lower the overall proficiency level for starting characters as well?

No, not really, and that's more due to the nature of the mage's guild on Hârn.  A mage is only attuned to one Convocation to start.  He has to spend a year and a day outside the chantry (most mages spend more time) before graduating from a journeyman (Satia-Mavari) to a master (Shenava).  Then he can learn spells from other schools with the proper permission and tithes (bribes).  If for your world you need to limit access to vagaries, take a hint from the weapon proficiency limits... priorities B-F limit starting weapon proficiencies to level 7.  You could do the same thing with Vagaries... say limiting beginning characters no more than 1/2 their proficiencies on magic, etc.  Would that work?

-Mark

[Bob Richter]

3) Ah, magic. I know there has been a lot of discussion about this, and TROS's magic is my second largest problem. I've got a mage character who's focus is on the elements (water); she really likes the diverse flavor of magic in ADnD (so do I). She's up for going with TROS as well but wants to keep the focus of her character as it is in ADnD. Is this even possible? I've looked through it and I'm not so sure. But please, if anyone knows of a way to keep this character's focus on Elementalism, please let me know!

We (my group) had to deal with a similar problem with a setting we'd designed for DnD and were working on moving over to TROS.

Frankly, TROS's magic is the only thing that's very specifically tied to Weyrth -- it doesn't make a lot of sense anywhere else.

So what we did was just to use the DnD Magic System (with a mana system instead of the basic spells-per-day.) You'd simply buy your Caster Level with proficiency points.

Something of a stopgap solution, but it worked well enough.

The GM can, of course, come up with spell EFFECTS based on the spell DESCRIPTION. :)