Mechanics: How Bad Are Ties?

[Jay Turner]

I'm working on a game that involves drawing cards to resolve who gets to narrate a scene, and I'm wrestling with the significance of ties (the same number drawn by each participant in the conflict).

Currently, I don't note the color or suit of the card unless it's a Joker (Red means good things happen, black means bad things happen). But in the case of ties, I am trying to figure out if I should leave ties alone and say, "Use the next card in the hand to resolve the tie", or if I should order the suits and use that order to arbitrarily eliminate the tie (i.e., the 6 of Diamonds beats the 6 of hearts, which beats the 6 of clubs, etc.).

Do you guys see ties on dice or cards as something to try to eliminate, or are they a possibly useful device (for simulating things like stalemates)?

[C. Edwards]

I see ties as a useful tool, mainly for compromise.

In Cradlethorn ties are normally Bad Things, and are narrated by the Anchor (GM). A Player can spend Desire (the currency) to narrate the Bad Thing in place of the Anchor. The resolution method is used to determine several other things besides if a Good Thing or Bad Thing takes place, and the Player always has the option of purchasing the narration rights for whatever aspect of the game is being determined when a Contest results in a tie.

I say use the tie to add another facet to your resolution system. The dynamic already exists at no cost to you.

-Chris

[Paul Czege]

Hey Jay,

Do you guys see ties on dice or cards as something to try to eliminate, or are they a possibly useful device (for simulating things like stalemates)?

Absolutely. My Life with Master features the following rule:

Ties

A tie result means the conflict was interrupted in some way. The exact nature of the interruption is entirely at the discretion of the GM, though if he wishes, an informal consultation with the play group is his prerogative. Perhaps a scream is heard from the parlor, delaying the immediate conflict until later. Possibly the Master arrives unexpectedly, in a dangerous frame of mind. Or maybe characters trying to kill each other are separated by the collapse of roof or wall.[/list:u]Paul

[Jay Turner]

I think I'm in favor of ties effectively cancelling the actions of both parties. Anything that could bring down the complexity of the system is a plus. :)

Any other thoughts?

[Mike Holmes]

Yeah, cherish your ties. There are usually few types of results that you can get from resolution system. Usually success, and failure often with degrees. Ties allow you to put something else in. I love them for this.

But don't just let them represent stalemates in a, "OK, nothing happens, draw again" sort of way. Make them actually do something. Perhaps the contestants have to change skills they are using? Maybe this causes the ante to be upped? Maybe some pacing mechanic get shifted? Maybe on a tie the players have the opportunity to create something that othewise they don't have the power to control?

A zillion cool things. Make ties the most exciting result you can get. Then their relative rarity (but not complete obscurity) will mean that players are really excited when a tie occurs.

Mike

[Jay Turner]

Good points. I'll have to give that some thought.

Any other advice as to what sorts of things ties might mean?

[Mike Holmes]

I don't have time to write all "zillion" of them. We'll have to narrow it down. What game is this for?

Mike

[ADGBoss]

In EODL ties mean go again, not nothing happens. I envision them as extended struggle which as some people point out is an awesome outcome. The extended struggle is a potent bit of story and prime for narration by both sides.

Sean
ADGBoss

[Jay Turner]

I don't have time to write all "zillion" of them. We'll have to narrow it down. What game is this for?

Mike

This is a comic-book roleplaying game which I haven't yet debuted here, because I'm not quite yet pleased with where it's going. I plan to post the system and all soon, but for now I'm more curious as to what else ties have meant in other games. The only option I came here with today was "nothing happens, try again."

I don't really need a "zillion" examples. Just the few I've seen so far have opened my mind considerably, and I'm curious to see a few more examples.

Right now, ties depend on the situation (if two people are struggling to open/keep closed a door, a tie means the door doesn't open). The problems is that in this situation, the check result decides who narrates, not just who won. I could decide that both parties narrate a tie, and give them both a chance to narrate themselves into a better position for the next time they match up.

[Bob McNamee]

Perhaps make a tie a swapping of the normal narration rights then.

Player narrates the usual GM stuff, while the GM narrates the Player's character for the extent of that roll. (Or 2 players swap charcters for that narration).

I'd let each narrate in a tie.

Just another idea,

[greyorm]

In Orx, when the dice are tied, you enter into an Extended Contest. This works like normally opposed rolls except that the total number of victories at the end of the contest are tallied up for each side and the winner declared based on those. Ties are obviously ignored.

Example: A tie occurs. Extended Contest mode is entered. There are to be three more rolls to determine the results of the original contest. Player A rolls two victories, then a failure, while Player B obviously gets two failures, then a victory. Unfortunately for him, Player A still walks away with two victories and wins the original contest.

There's some other effects specifically for Orx which make Extended Contests deadly and dangerous -- orcs accumulate damage as normal and suffer all its effects afterwards, basically increasing their chances of losing the Scene or even dying.

Depending on the game, other effects could be highlighted in addition to the additional rolls.

[M. J. Young]

In Multiverser, a tie means the status quo is maintained; that is, if one person is trying to change the situation and the other is trying to prevent the change, a tie means that the situation is unchanged. This rule covers a great deal of ground, actually.

If that will not work for a particular situation (e.g., initiative), the dice are re-rolled.

Footnote: if you are going to rank the suits, please use the traditional ranking. All card players know that the suits are ranked, highest to lowest, in reverse alphabetical order: spades, hearts, diamonds, clubs. This comes primarily from the whist family of games, particularly bridge, but is rather generally accepted.

I say to follow it not because it's particularly good, but because if you don't you'll be working against the expectations of a lot of gamers.

Footnote: if you do create something from ties, consider playing with a Pinochle deck for resolution--you'll get a lot more ties.

--M. J. Young

[Bankuei]

Here's something you might want to consider in terms of ties:

1)Both sides get what they want, at high cost
2)Both sides do not get what they want, no cost/low cost
3)Both sides do not get what they want, high cost

Examples:
Fight
1-Both sides die(classic samurai duel)
2-Fight is interrupted(more people show up, building collapses, etc.)
3-Both sides are injured beyond being able to finish the other off...

Hostage situation
1-Boths sides die(Hostage lives)
2-Hostage situation continues-extend contest, add complications/twists
3-Hostage is killed, both sides lose the girl...

I'm sure you can think of variations and twists on these.  It's not all encompassing, but it's an excellent start for thinking of ties.

Chris

[deadpanbob]

I agree with Chris.  Ties mean both players get what they want.

Since you're talking about comic games, and I'll assume superheros for this example - another option would be to allow Tied results to spin off into an immediate mini game, with both sides drawing until a clear winner emerges (the extended action idea mentioned above), but then the eventual winner gets to knock the loser around the battlefield (knockback).

Finally, you could use the suit split - whoever played the red card in the tie has a critical failure, whoever played the black card has a critical success, if both play one color or the other, both suffer the appropriate critical.


Cheers.

Jason

P.S. - As an avid card player, I agree that if you're going to introduce suit order, you should use the traditional order of Spades>Hearts>Diamonds>Clubs.

[Jeph]

Personally, I favor the way Feng Shui handles boxcars: redraw, and whoever wins the second time, wins. But they do so in an incredible over-the-top, unlikely manner.

Last time I had a player roll boxcars, he was driving a car. He failed. The car caught on a pothole, and commenced doing a gracefull backflip an a rather high speed. The landing considerably reduced this speed, and was no where near as graceful. ;-)