Using the Combat Simulator in play

[Michael Tree]

I love the combat simulator, and have been playing with it for days (at the expense of of studying, even.)  In fact, I'm considering using it for running TROS, since I'm somewhat phobic of large numbers of dice and remembering all the minor rules and costs.

However, it lacks one fundemental ingredient of TRoS combat: Spiritual Attributes.  Are there any plans for future editions of the simulator for including the option of adding SA dice to combat die rolls.

I'm also curious what differences there are in the rules for the simulator and the P&P game.  So far the only differences I've noticed is that the simulator has far less armor and shield types than the book, and some weapon combinations use strange proficiencies, such as scimitar and shield using cut-and-thrust.  Are there any other differences that I havn't noticed yet?

[Brian Leybourne]

Any mistakes are mine and not Jakes, obviously.

The armor changes were done because armor is quite complicated in the game and we needed something a bit more simplistic for the combat sim while still giving the right basic idea. Weapon/proficiency styles are my own interpretations and it's possible there are a couple of fluffs in there, nothing serious though. And of course if you don't like the value for proficiency (or anything else) that the CharGen puts in when it's going to save a character in the COmbat Sim, you can always change it before clicking save.

SA's? I guess it would be easy enough to put something like that in there, if there was a call for it.

Brian.

(edit: Really glad to hear you're enjoying playing with it. That was, of course, the point of making it *grin*).

[Michael Tree]

For some very weird reason, when I load a character I created onto the right side of the sim, he doesn't have a shield, and the program won't let me give him one, regardless of the weapon he's using.  But when I load him onto the left side, he works just fine.  

If you do an update of the program, I'd also very much like to have the Acrobatics and Body Language skills as part of it, since they can be a major aspect of some characters' fighting styles.

[Brian Leybourne]

For some very weird reason, when I load a character I created onto the right side of the sim, he doesn't have a shield, and the program won't let me give him one, regardless of the weapon he's using.  But when I load him onto the left side, he works just fine.

Uh.. VERY odd since nothing in the file that the fighters info is saved in has any relationship to the side he's loaded on (and characters from the CharGen are saved no differently from characters actually made in the Combat Sim). Are you sure you didn't just accidentally keep trying to use a shield with 2-handed weapons on the RHS?

If you're sure, then email me the details of exactly how he's saved (send me your fighters.ini file from c:\program files\ros is the best way) and I'll have a look at it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

If you do an update of the program, I'd also very much like to have the Acrobatics and Body Language skills as part of it, since they can be a major aspect of some characters' fighting styles.

I've been asked for those before, as well as the ability to use Accuracy. It's a possibility for some point in the future, but to be honest, don't hold your breath. The complexity of trying to work out a valid TROS AI has fried the part of my brain that thinks about the Combat Sim, so there's no development going on in it at the moment.

Brian.

[Michael Tree]

After playing around with it some more, it makes even less sense.  It's on a problem with one character (tentatively named Khazar), and it's only a problem for him when another character I created (Jon) is loaded into the left hand side of the program first.  If I load Khazar onto the right first, then load Jpn onto the left, Khazar on the right still retains his shield, but if I get rid of it I can't get it back as long as Jon is on the left.  And it's only a problem with those two characters, not any of the others I've made.

It's not a problem, it's just... baffling.

I do understand your burning out after trying to program an AI.  It's so complex that I certainly wouldn't want to try.  I have a hard enough time playing!  (I'm getting better though, thanks in no small part to your progam.)

[Brian Leybourne]

Yeah, that's fucked up.

Email me your fighters.ini file, I want to see if I can recreate the error and work out why/how it's happening.

bleybourne@hotmail.com

Thanks,
Brian.

[Morfedel]

I haven't got the main rulebook yet, and i've been running into an odd thing about combat in the simulator, that makes me wonder about TRoS in general.

I was having the Cut & Thrust Kid fighting a Gol Captain. Aside from the fact that the Kid had a DEVIL of a time getting inside the reach of the pike (which is intentional, I assume?) the Kid managed a number of times to land blows that did zero damage.

and often, these were after high levels of success, if I recall correctly. I thought it odd I'd have to work so hard to injure this gol captain, after hearing how realistic the combat system is.

I'll rerun it a few times and see what kind of success rolls I'm getting, but it just seems... well, suspicious.

[Brian Leybourne]

Morfedel,

Go into the options, and turn on "display damage calculations", that'll show you why all the zero-level wounds.

Without going and looking at the combat sim (and from memory) I'm thinking that we're talking a ST of 4ish versus a TO of 8ish, which is an uphill climb right from the start; even more so when you consider that the Gol Captain in the Combat Sim has (again from memory) leather armor on, which is effectively another +2 TO. Take his armor off to give the Cut & Thrust kid a better chance.

Yes, the difficulty in getting past the pike is intentional in the system. However, you'll notice that as soon as he does, the Gol Captain has a bigger disadvantage than C&T Kid had, because fighting past a longer range than your own weapon gives a penalty on all attacks, but fighting at a shorter range than your own weapon penalises attacks and defenses (except evasions).

Glad you're having fun with the Combat Sim! Hopefully it'll give you the TROS bug :-)

Brian.

(edit: One more thing... without the book you wouldn't know, but a Gol Captain is a 8' to 9' tall monstrosity who's really not supposed to be easy to kill one-on-one. The only foe in the Combat Sim harder to succeed against would be the Giant. Oh, and did I put a Hef in there? Think "Gol Captain on steroids". I think I was drunk that day).

[Morfedel]

Well, as i've said in other posts, i'm getting ready to run a new game, and i'm trying to wean some very stubborn players away from the D&D bug.

They aren't utterly D&D addicts - they played some palladium fantasy, and a very brief stint with each of ars Magica, Vampire, and Aberrant.

but they definitely lean towards the D&D / Palladium Fantasy model.

So, as of this writing, I've narrowed my system I'm going to try and use to wean them off of D&D as:

Hackmaster - I know, its not much of a difference, but sometimes, babysteps are needed....

Lord of the Rings - a bit better than Hackmaster, but its still very reminisent of D20

Talislanta - I really know very little of this game, aside from the fact that its rules light, and that it uses an archetype system for characters (shudder), but it sounds like a very intriguing world setting. Since its rules light and has a neat world setting, that might be able to do the trick.

The Riddle of Steel - why i'm here. This actually is where I'm leaning for my own personal desire. My fear is that it may be a bit too complex (at least where combat is concerned), and sorcery too lenient/powerful. If the learning curve is too high, they will run the other way, and if they perceive an element of a game as being too potentially munchkiny, I'll have to put stoppers on it or they will likewise react badly.

But they are intrigued by the passions element of the game.


I was also fiddling with the idea of Agone or Arrowflight, as well as Harnmaster, but i nixed those from the running; I also went and read reviews on Deathstalkers, Gemini, Imagine, and Undiscovered, but they didn't appear at first glance to be really appealing.

I haven't bought any of the above games, except for Lord of the Rings. I don't want to buy a few hundred dollars worth of gaming materials just to choose one, so I scour the internet for reviews, playtest comments, forum board discussions, downloadable rules, etc etc.

As such... i have three concerns: A) the rules might be too high a learning curve (not sure if this is true, just remembering some reviews mentioned this game had a high learning curve), B) I'm a smidgeon irate that toughness has such a massive impact on resisting wounds, which makes it feel unrealistic (although the To vs Strength limit mentioned in a discussion below sounds like a good potential fix), and C) how easily the sorcery system can be retooled to fit our vision of appropriate power levels.

And, well, how married to the world the setting is - but it seems pretty decent from what i've seen.

As it is, I'm still leaning towards TRoS as my top choice, with Talislanta a runner up, and Lord of the Rings in third place - I almost picked up TRoS this weekend, and if my wife and I hadn't just up and decidied to move to texas in a few weeks, I'd have picked it up. It will have to wait until after the move.

We will see. :)

Hey, since we are on the subject, I skimmed the character creation rules in the book, and I am curious: I understand that putting a high priority of sorcery and race allows you to make a sorcerer... but what effect does it have on the character if you want to do a different race instead? I mean, does it just add to stats, or what? :)

[Lance D. Allen]

Michael,

As great as the combat simulator is, I'd really recommend against using it in the actual playing of the game. The armor locations are much more arbitrary, there are no SAs (as you've mentioned) there's no accuracy (a popular Gift among fighter-types) or use of Acrobatics... Among other things. The program is great for what it does, which is give a good taste of the combat system, but because it is a program rather than a person, it cannot make the judgement calls needed of a good Seneschal.

The combat system is very intimidating, I'll admit. But once you've run through a few duels, or a good melee session, you and your players will have a much better grasp of them.

Morf, the above comment also applies to your concerns. TRoS rules are complex, it's true. But what isn't as readily apparent into you actually begin playing is that they are quite intuitive. I've run through several duels between my character Tiberius and that of Rattlehead's, Julianos. Not a single time has Tiberius killed Jules, because it's not his way if it's avoidable. I've never had to look for rules on pulling punches, and they weren't fighting with practice weapons, or for practice. Ti was fighting for his life, and while he'd seriously f'd Jules up every time that he won, it was amazingly easy to play out.

I won't say that you won't have starts and stops, such as when someone tries a maneuver that's not been tried before (or when anyone tries buying initiative.. That one's kind of annoying, but very effective at times) but it's easy to learn as you go.

With skills, the most difficult part is determining which attribute to tell them to use, and whether or not a given use counts as "under duress". As has been pointed out, you don't have to throw situations in front of your characters for them to use skills.. They'll seek out opportunities of their own.

As for Sorcery.. Well, I think it's a good thing that sorcery is complicated. Sorcery is not for the weak-minded, and I think that goes for players, as well. You've got to work at sorcery to understand it, and this is a good thing to me.

[Valamir]

I concur with your assessment Wolfen.  The combat sim is amazing, but it represents a pretty idealized combat situation (1 on 1, no miscellaneous assembled armor, no SA which apply, etc).  Not real suitable to cover in game situations.

BUT I would encourage its use during prep to test out your players' characters against your NPCs.  Run a few trial combats through the sim to make sure that the mook you throw at them really is a mook and doesn't turn them into fricasse and the cheif villain doesn't go down like a punk.

[Michael Tree]

Thanks for the recommendations.  I'll probably end up running combat traditionally, if and when I do run a game.  I just wondered about the possibility of using the sim because I don't like keeping track of lots of dice and modifiers and costs.

In the sim, I've noticed an odd glitch with half-sworded bastard swords.  For some reason when a character wielding one hits his opponent, the range doesn't reset to advantage him, and he continues to suffer the additional activation cost.  The same is also true for his opponent, who continues to suffer penalties regardless of whether or not he hits the bastard sword wielder.

[Mike Holmes]

On the subject of modifiers and costs, in play what Jake does is to use little bowls for the dice. Have your combat pool in one, and spent dice in the other. When you spend, they go from one to the other, and when you refresh, they go right back together.

Not only is this easy, but it's fun. Get cool bowls (jake had really nifty ones), and it's even better.

OTOH, I'm an advocate of CARP (Computer Assisted Role-Playing), and as such would really like to see the simulator made so that it could be used in play. Hook it up to the Character Generator as one seamless app, and you'd have a really cool suite.

I already think the thing should be sold. Do the above, and you could really make some money I think Brian.  :-)

Mike

[Brian Leybourne]

I already think the thing should be sold. Do the above, and you could really make some money I think Brian.  :-)

Not me, it's Jakes game. Any money should go to Driftwood.

I still think we should put together a CD with all this stuff on it and sell it for $5 at GenCon (or free if you buy a copy of the book). I'm still gutted I can't make it to GenCon this year, unless any of you are feeling really generous ;-)

Brian.