A question about: Pain. From a new poster

[Prince of Thieves]

I purchased Riddle of Steel quite a few months ago and was so busy over the holidays I had no time to read it, much less consider running it. But I have now finished the book(and read the rules quite a few times). Anyway I am really excited about RoS and getting the chance to run a real session not just a mock battle...  I have just alittle chance to play around with it and I have a few questions.

* Pain and Shock *
Alot of post mention WP modifing shock but in the book it says shock is a static number and pain is reduced by WP. (I've read posts about a 2nd printing so perhaps I have the 1st.)

How does pain add up?
Example(From the little combat play I ran): A Tataar slaver (WP 4) had suffered the following wounds.
 L5-Puncture to the Knee: BL:6; Pain 11-WP
 L2-Puncture to chest: BL:4; Pain 6-WP
Now what is the pain mod to his Combat Pool. Is it 7 (wrost wound only 11 - WP) or is it 9 (11-WP + 6-WP).

BTW a L5 puncture reads: Shatterred Knee, Roll for KnckDwn at -5. But it lists no Move penalty. I went ahead and applied a 1/2 penalty to move. After the injury.

Also it seems way to easier to murder a man with your bare hands. At the begining of the same encounter the attacker(PC) leapt form a bush surprising a Tataar and punched him in the face, with alot of success. (Attacker Rolled his whole CP since the poor slaver failed his surprise role.) even at Str-2(+8 for Roll minus 4 TO) dmg it still came to a L5 bashing wound to the face, instant death... would make since if it were a mace, but a man's bare fist! I ruled this was only a lvl 2 Blunt wound to the face but rendered the victim unconscios automatically. Does anyone else have a better idea how to apply bare-fisted(foot, knee) attacks in the future. I was thinking maybe 1/2 or 1/3 WL, to max of lvl 2, maybe level three if victim is disadvantages(i.e. prone on ground while being kicked.)
Or maybe I just make the players squim and run those bare-fisted wounds by ear.

BTW: Riddle of Steel is a very intresting read and I look forward to really playing it. Just love the Spiritual Attributes, I'd even say they outshine the very intresting and well done Combat Rules. Once I get a game up and running would anyone being intrested in trading adventure ideas?

[Salamander]

I purchased Riddle of Steel quite a few months ago and was so busy over the holidays I had no time to read it, much less consider running it. But I have now finished the book(and read the rules quite a few times). Anyway I am really excited about RoS and getting the chance to run a real session not just a mock battle...  I have just alittle chance to play around with it and I have a few questions.

That's alright, I had a few too.

* Pain and Shock *
Alot of post mention WP modifing shock but in the book it says shock is a static number and pain is reduced by WP. (I've read posts about a 2nd printing so perhaps I have the 1st.)

Look on Page 258, first paragraph, it will tell you in the Afterward if the book is a revised edition or not.

How does pain add up?
Example(From the little combat play I ran): A Tataar slaver (WP 4) had suffered the following wounds.
 L5-Puncture to the Knee: BL:6; Pain 11-WP
 L2-Puncture to chest: BL:4; Pain 6-WP
Now what is the pain mod to his Combat Pool. Is it 7 (wrost wound only 11 - WP) or is it 9 (11-WP + 6-WP).

It is stated on Page 81 under Shock and Pain that the CP penaly is cumulative as long as the damage is applied to different zones, so (11 - 4WP) + (6 - 4WP) = -9 is the correct one.

BTW a L5 puncture reads: Shatterred Knee, Roll for KnckDwn at -5. But it lists no Move penalty. I went ahead and applied a 1/2 penalty to move. After the injury.

That sounds good to me. I take one half the CP penalty (round down) and apply the result to the move STAT.

Also it seems way to easier to murder a man with your bare hands. At the begining of the same encounter the attacker(PC) leapt form a bush surprising a Tataar and punched him in the face, with alot of success.

It is possible to ambush a guy and do grievous harm.

(Attacker Rolled his whole CP since the poor slaver failed his surprise role.) even at Str-2(+8 for Roll minus 4 TO) dmg it still came to a L5 bashing wound to the face, instant death... would make since if it were a mace, but a man's bare fist!

*smirk* yeah, poor slaver... :D
How did the PC know he surprised the Slaver? I would use a Perception Roll with the slaver's Wit as the TN. Also, how did the PC get so many successes? I mean 8 successes would indicate on the law of averages a good 14 or 15 dice were rolled for the attack. If so, then this guy is one heck of a pugilist! How high was his Pugilism/Brawling Proficiency? Did any of his SA's apply?

I ruled this was only a lvl 2 Blunt wound to the face but rendered the victim unconscios automatically. Does anyone else have a better idea how to apply bare-fisted(foot, knee) attacks in the future. I was thinking maybe 1/2 or 1/3 WL, to max of lvl 2, maybe level three if victim is disadvantages(i.e. prone on ground while being kicked.)
Or maybe I just make the players squim and run those bare-fisted wounds by ear.

I think I'll need more details before I address the above.

BTW: Riddle of Steel is a very intresting read and I look forward to really playing it. Just love the Spiritual Attributes, I'd even say they outshine the very intresting and well done Combat Rules. Once I get a game up and running would anyone being intrested in trading adventure ideas?

I agree that TRoS is a very interesting game as well. And yeah, I think trading adventure ideas is a good way to make the Seneschal's life easier.

[Lance D. Allen]

If he rolled his whole combat pool, I'd say he was trying for a killing blow. It is possible to kill a man with a single blow of the fist if you hit him hard enough in the right place.

I had an ambush situation where a man on horseback was surprised, so rather than drawing his weapon, he kicked the brigand in the forehead, applying all available dice (he left none to defend) and his rather considerable strength. The total result was a level seven wound. I ruled that he'd broken the brigand's skull, and snapped his head back so hard that he'd snapped his neck.

If it seems unrealistic to you to rule a level 5 wound to be described exactly as it is in the book (yes, I imagine it's somewhat unlikely that you'll cave in a man's face with your fist, even if you put your whole body behind it) you can narrate the results differently, as I did when I added the broken neck.

[Bankuei]

Heh, my character slammed a door into a guy, trying to stun him in desperation.  I would quickly learn using 8 dice to do this is a -bad idea- when you have the vow "Not to kill".  Snapped the guy's neck.

Oops.

Chris

[Jake Norwood]

I purchased Riddle of Steel quite a few months ago and was so busy over the holidays I had no time to read it, much less consider running it. But I have now finished the book(and read the rules quite a few times). Anyway I am really excited about RoS and getting the chance to run a real session not just a mock battle...  I have just alittle chance to play around with it and I have a few questions.

Heresy!...just kidding. You've come to the right place.

* Pain and Shock *
Alot of post mention WP modifing shock but in the book it says shock is a static number and pain is reduced by WP. (I've read posts about a 2nd printing so perhaps I have the 1st.)

Hmmm...WP doesn't modify shock except in a few cases, which are found in the damage charts on some really light wounds.

How does pain add up?
Example(From the little combat play I ran): A Tataar slaver (WP 4) had suffered the following wounds.
 L5-Puncture to the Knee: BL:6; Pain 11-WP
 L2-Puncture to chest: BL:4; Pain 6-WP
Now what is the pain mod to his Combat Pool. Is it 7 (wrost wound only 11 - WP) or is it 9 (11-WP + 6-WP).

I can see how it would be interpreted as either, but the pain on any given wound is x-WP. Thus Wounds x and y would be added up as (x-WP) + (y-WP). That's how I run it. I'd also keep track of the "raw" pain for healing times.

BTW a L5 puncture reads: Shatterred Knee, Roll for KnckDwn at -5. But it lists no Move penalty. I went ahead and applied a 1/2 penalty to move. After the injury.

I'd say the poor bastard can't to more than hop, assuming he doesn't go down hard.

Also it seems way to easier to murder a man with your bare hands. At the begining of the same encounter the attacker(PC) leapt form a bush surprising a Tataar and punched him in the face, with alot of success.

2 things:
Frist, TROS fighters are not D&D fighters. THey're serious martial artists with some very impressive skills. They know how to kill with their bare hands. Second, I also think that this is a bit of a breaking point in the system (but only a bit).

(Attacker Rolled his whole CP since the poor slaver failed his surprise role.) even at Str-2(+8 for Roll minus 4 TO) dmg it still came to a L5 bashing wound to the face, instant death... would make since if it were a mace, but a man's bare fist!

H0w big was his CP? An "average" guard or soldier might have 8-10 dice tops, and that's not someone with shoddy training. If he had around 12-15 dice, he knows how to kill with his hands.

I ruled this was only a lvl 2 Blunt wound to the face but rendered the victim unconscios automatically. Does anyone else have a better idea how to apply bare-fisted(foot, knee) attacks in the future. I was thinking maybe 1/2 or 1/3 WL, to max of lvl 2, maybe level three if victim is disadvantages(i.e. prone on ground while being kicked.)
Or maybe I just make the players squim and run those bare-fisted wounds by ear.

I'd make 'em squirm. Alternativley you can ask them if they're trying to kill or not. If not, then the damage could cap-out at a lvl 3 wound.

BTW: Riddle of Steel is a very intresting read and I look forward to really playing it. Just love the Spiritual Attributes, I'd even say they outshine the very intresting and well done Combat Rules. Once I get a game up and running would anyone being intrested in trading adventure ideas?

Oh, it's just gorgeous in play. Not flawless, but still beautiful.

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

I agree that TRoS is a very interesting game as well. And yeah, I think trading adventure ideas is a good way to make the Seneschal's life easier.

Hmm.. maybe. But only kinda.

In many RPG's, I would agree with you. But TROS is a different beast.

It's both far easier, and far harder to make adventures in TROS. That's an odd statement, but it's also true. Making up "pre-generated" adventures really doesn't work in TROS. To a great extent you have to let the players dictate the game through their spiritual attributes. So in one way, it's easier than the norm because you don't have to do lots of prep time making adventures that might or might not engage your players, you just look at their SA's and you already know what will engage them and it's easy to make the campaign up (on the fly, even) from that. On the other hand, that also simultaneously makes things harder because you have to be a very flexible and imaginative GM to cope with and keep up with the players, their changing SA's, and so on.

Very very loose adventure hooks are fine, but really, there's just no way to swap "adventures" between TROS campaigns, because player expectations (through their SA's) will be totally different.

Brian.

[Brian Leybourne]

Oh, one other thing I meant to say.

If you stand there and don't defend yourself, and I hit you as hard as I can in the face (bridge of the nose, especially) there's an excellent chance I'll go to jail for murder.

And I'm not a TROS "hero" with a massive combat pool.

Bare hands can kill, and fairly easily. Why do you think they make boxers wear those big padded gloves. Don't pay any attention to films and TV where two guys will be fighting and will repeatedly punch each other full force in the face over and over and keep fighting; RL doesn't work like that, and TROS is closer to RL than those kinds of fights in films.

Brian.

[Prince of Thieves]

Thanks for all the replies everybody.

Look on Page 258, first paragraph, it will tell you in the Afterward if the book is a revised edition or not.

Nope I don't have the revised edition... pg 258 is my index...

(Attacker Rolled his whole CP since the poor slaver failed his surprise role.) even at Str-2(+8 for Roll minus 4 TO) dmg it still came to a L5 bashing wound to the face, instant death... would make since if it were a mace, but a man's bare fist!

*smirk* yeah, poor slaver... :D
How did the PC know he surprised the Slaver? I would use a Perception Roll with the slaver's Wit as the TN. Also, how did the PC get so many successes? I mean 8 successes would indicate on the law of averages a good 14 or 15 dice were rolled for the attack. If so, then this guy is one heck of a pugilist! How high was his Pugilism/Brawling Proficiency? Did any of his SA's apply?

It was a lucky roll. Unarmored PC had Cut&Thrust at 7, defaulted Pugalism 5 + Reflex of 6. Plus 2 Spiritual-Drive:Defend Woman. There were female slaves being mistreated; in fact this was the distraction that allowed surprise. So 13 dice ATN:5... not too hard to roll 8... BIG OUCH...
(Oh btw PC's ST was 4 as was the Slavers TO)

But to the fact about killing with a fist to the face, even on a sucker punch, the ways for the blow to kill are still rare(likely even more rare with a boxing style punch). A fist just doesn't have the power to pulverize the skull, because the skull, the neck and the spine are all designed to absorb impact. The real danger is when the body cannot recoil from the force. (Punching someone who's head is already on the ground, or against a wall is dangerous.) Or with too much force, delievering a boot from a speeding horse is a perfect example. As I understand it most of the deaths from fist-fights (I'm not talking about kicking or stomping) come from a concussion as the skull falls 5-6' to the floor without its owner trying to soften the blow.

Hope my quote use works alright.

[Salamander]

Thanks for all the replies everybody.

Glad to help out.

Nope I don't have the revised edition... pg 258 is my index...

Oh well. I think you got it covered if I read the Beat Maneuver Thread right.

It was a lucky roll. Unarmored PC had Cut&Thrust at 7, defaulted Pugalism 5 + Reflex of 6. Plus 2 Spiritual-Drive:Defend Woman. There were female slaves being mistreated; in fact this was the distraction that allowed surprise. So 13 dice ATN:5... not too hard to roll 8... BIG OUCH...
(Oh btw PC's ST was 4 as was the Slavers TO)

And there we go! Seems to me that the guy was pretty skilled at beating people up... or down... well you get the idea.

As I understand it most of the deaths from fist-fights (I'm not talking about kicking or stomping) come from a concussion as the skull falls 5-6' to the floor without its owner trying to soften the blow.

...!!! And you, my friend, have just answered how the guy died.

Hope my quote use works alright.

You did quite well.

[Lance D. Allen]

It was a lucky roll. Unarmored PC had Cut&Thrust at 7, defaulted Pugalism 5 + Reflex of 6. Plus 2 Spiritual-Drive:Defend Woman. There were female slaves being mistreated; in fact this was the distraction that allowed surprise. So 13 dice ATN:5... not too hard to roll 8... BIG OUCH...

All of that? I'd have killed him. He was using SAs, plus, as it was pointed out, he's no slouch at martial arts... I, personally, think you cheapened the scene and down-played the character's ability by letting the slaver live... but that is simple personal opinion.

Think about what you're saying about deaths in fist fights. Most fist fights that you are thinking of are fought by drunkards or barroom brawlers, or the like. They are not fought by devoted and trained martial artists who know how to make a hit count, whether it's with a sword or a fist. I'll say again, if it's the specifics of description (shattered skull) that you disagree with, change the description, not the effect.

[Prince of Thieves]

It was a lucky roll. Unarmored PC had Cut&Thrust at 7, defaulted Pugalism 5 + Reflex of 6. Plus 2 Spiritual-Drive:Defend Woman. There were female slaves being mistreated; in fact this was the distraction that allowed surprise. So 13 dice ATN:5... not too hard to roll 8... BIG OUCH...

All of that? I'd have killed him. He was using SAs, plus, as it was pointed out, he's no slouch at martial arts... I, personally, think you cheapened the scene and down-played the character's ability by letting the slaver live... but that is simple personal opinion.

Perhaps... but the players stated goal was to knock-out the first slaver quickly so they would have one less to deal with. If he had stated he lunging forward to snap the mans neck then of course, I'd let him kill him, bare hands or no. (Assuming he rolled enough success of course.) But the KO was easier: lower ATN of 5, so that is what the player went for. That he used his hands at all(and not a sword thrust to the heart), suggested he wanted to accomplish the task with minimal killing and blood-shed. And I concer heros should be moral, even against the low and vile. Why kill three men if you can accomplish your goal with only taking one-life.

[Brian Leybourne]

So where's the problem? As Seneschal you rule that it was such an amazing blow that the slaver is instantly knocked unconscious and there's no danger of him waking up for as many hours as the succeses rolled.

Remember, there's no requirement to slavishly adhere to the tables.

Brian.