Questions on TROS and a long story.

[Agnar]

Ok, the story first.

I've been DM of a D&D 3e game for 2 years (and have been playing for 11 years... damn).

My style of roleplaying (having developed in a PBeM for 4 years) however heavily involves character's emotional states and attitudes and so on while my players were all in the standard hack&slash Final Fantasy module.

Over the first year, all my players made leaps and bounds towards the more rewarding aspect of roleplaying, that is, instead of merely thinking what your character thinks, feeling what your character feels. Some made more progress than others, admittedly, but all made progress.

But then after a bad encounter with a min/maxer (who is still playing, but only partially fixed), I decided that classes and levels and many other aspects of D&D were too constricting. So I started undoing them one by one on paper. Immediately there was a player revolt at even the thought of changing things. (I suspect that they are really sycophants of printed material rather than actually afraid of change.)

And then I discovered in the game store TROS. Wow. Someone had made all the changes that I wanted. And it was in hardcover! No excuse for the players now. So I went home scrounged up $40 and headed back only to find out that the bastards at WotC retail stores are no longer stocking non-WotC material (even if it's d20).

And so I spent that $40 and consoled myself with LOTR II.

Months passed and I forgot all about TROS. I even forgot the name. Then somehow I stumbled upon the website and salvation now lays in my grasp.

So when I get my paycheck at the end of the summer, I'll be all set to get TROS. But before I do, it's only proper for me to do my due diligence. So a few questions.

1. Is there any reason I shouldn't buy TROS? Everything on the website and in this forum says that I should, but are there any hidden and dirty secrets that would make it not worth it? Are there any flaws, major or minor, in the system that could easily be exploited by an unscrupulous player?

2. How do I get my PCs to switch over considering that all people are resistant to change? (Let's say I have 9 months to do this.)

3. How easily can a D&D 3e campaign world (original) be transfered to TROS?

4. What do I do with all those d20 books? (besides a ritual pyre)

5. Can I invest money in Driftwood? (And how much)

6. Are there any other questions that I should be asking?

Thanks.

[Bankuei]

Hi Agnar,

A lot of these questions are really subjective, so at best you'll get informed opinions...But I'll try to give you some clear ideas for a good outlook.

1.  Why not TROS?

Well, its a matter of what you want out of play.  TROS has spawned numerous threads on Rpg.net, and much of the detractors basically say either "It doesn't do my style" or "It doesn't do everything!".  The first statement is fine, simple as "I don't like apples", a matter of taste.  The second is a rather empty statement, since I can't think of a game that can do everything(and there's more to doing everything than simply genre).

So can TROS do what you want?  Well, here's my take on what TROS is about:

http://indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=4491

Make that decision for yourself.

2. How do I get my players(I assume you meant, instead of PCs) to switch over?

Hypnosis.  Brainwashing.  Jokes aside, there's really no answer to that.  If most of your players dig the sort of emotional exploration and thematic games you've been doing, and they try out TROS, it probably shouldn't be to hard.  But basically the question is the same as "How do I get people to like the same kind of music as me?"

To give you some better advice if your players turn out to be hesistant or reluctant, I'd say get the one or two who are open, and play it as an aside from your regular group.  As word of how great it is trickles back, people get won over.

3.  How easy can I bring D&D over to TROS?

Well, the biggest jumps are going to be that monsters will need to be rated in something other than HP, and too high of a Toughness could make them invunerable.  It will be tricky getting a good balancing act going on.  Thankfully Of Beasts and Men, supplement is coming out soon, and will give you some idea of how monsters work.  Magic wise, you'll need to severely limit what magic in TROS can do to fit the D&D mold.  Otherwise expect serious magical repercussions to your world.

4.  What do I do with the D20 books?

Use them for ideas(prestige classes, items, spells, etc.) or save them until D&D 5th edition comes out and sell them at high prices on Ebay.

5.  Investment?

Ask Jake, but it'd certainly help some more books come out!

Chris

[Nick the Nevermet]

1) why not?

You should think twice about this game if you don't like lethal combat, unsafe combat, a tendency for highly strategic combat, dice pools, statistical representations of personality, magic not being designed with an eye to 'game balance', damage charts, or exploration of character.  Search rpg.net and you'll find what people who don't like TROS say about it.

2) Converting players

You find what they like in roleplaying and you show how that can be done just as well in TROS.  Some hack 'n slashers will love TROS because of the strategy.  Others will hate it because of the risk to their characters.  If they don't care about character motivations, don't talk that up with them.  And make sure you don't appear to be demanding the change.  Ask if they'd like to play a one-time session of some other games, just as a change of pace.  Find or make a scenario that fits their playing style.  Make sure you know the rules, too.

Keep in mind that if your players have a passionate hatred of anything mentioned in #1, you'll have a real hard time of things.

3) Exactly what Chris said.

4) d20
d20 isn't a bad game.  It knows what it wants to be, and doesn't do a half bad job at being that.  Hang on to the stuff as source material, and just in case you get the desire to play it.  If you own any books you regret buying because it just is antithetical to what you like in roleplaying, then sell it (I'd give that advice about any book, really).

5) Investment
Before asking Jake that, ask yourself why do you want to do that (don't need to tell me :) ).

One final comment - The Riddle of Steel core rulebook is just that: a rulebook.  It has the rules for how to roleplay a certain way.  If you are having problems because your style of play differs from your group, you will probably need to look beyond text for solutions.

[Eamon Voss]

1. Is there any reason I shouldn't buy TROS

1. The game is $40.  Sounds like that is a lot of money to you at this point in life.

2. Combat is very tactical.  My group loves the fact that a swordfight is more than a dice off, but some people find that thinking through a fight is not fun.  One very good gamer buddy of mine doesn't like it because of this reason!  He prefers the simplistic dice-off method of D20.  

3. I love the combat and skill system.  But I don't like the magic system.  Then again, I don't like any magic system but the Ars Magica one and I don't like that one much either.

2. How do I get my PCs to switch over considering that all people are resistant to change? (Let's say I have 9 months to do this.)

Run a knight tournament using the quickstart rules or main rules.  Have it last one or two sessions.  Toss in lots of bouts, some romance, and intrigue.  Invite your gaming friends over.  Have fun with it.  They'll be convinced when the tournament is over...

3. How easily can a D&D 3e campaign world (original) be transfered to TROS?

Really depends on the game world.  Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms is a D20 world that begs a TROS conversion.  The D20 magic system doesn't belong in that setting, IMHO.  Magic items are very rare, and adding guns to TROS is easy to do.  This would be a cinch to do and I am planning to do this in a few months.

On the other hand, Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk are built around the D&D system.  Politics and events occur based off of spells and magic items that are very D&D in their design.  Converting these game worlds to TROS would require heaps of work.

4. What do I do with all those d20 books? (besides a ritual pyre)

Save them for when you decide to run or play in D20 again.  Or sell them on eBay.  

5. Can I invest money in Driftwood? (And how much)

Do what I do:

1. Buy the book yourself.  Eagerly buy expansions to the game.
2. Convince your friends to buy the books and expansions.
3. Run convention events using the game as the engine.  That will bring more converts to the fold, and give Deadwood more money.  I'm doing that at http://www.patriotgames.org myself.

6. Are there any other questions that I should be asking?

How about, 'What the heck is ARMA?'

:)

[Agnar]

Thanks that's pretty helpful. That thread makes me weep tears of joy.

Combat in my game if anything needs to be more lethal. The players kill things just fine and have unfortunately gotten into the habit of doing so. Spontaneously attacking things is no longer a risk and so they do it, killing, literally, good opportunities for roleplay. But if the baddies are just as lethal, then they'll think twice.

The highly strategic combat combined with the speed advertised (is it really as fast as they say?) might be a good selling point to the hardest to convince.

The more emotional people will be easy to sell.

As for converting my campaign, the world is due for a major change in a little bit, drastic reductions in magic were scheduled anyway, (long story short, the PC's are getting moved several thousand years into the future... if they don't die they're going to save the world and then the Gods will save them for later) so story wise, won't be a problem really.

Though the PCs may be a little disappointed in that there big buff PCs now can get killed by a street urchin. Some of them anyway.

The advice on converting them to the faith is pretty good too. One of the players Dms for just a couple of us every now and then. The three of us are the most likely to make the switch. If we switch his game first, then the word will trickle down.

Ok, more questions. Since D&D is really the only game I've played (but I'm familiar with the World of Darkness, which seems to have the same dice mechanic as TROS), I'd like to know some of the details of what's in and what's out. Chapter by chapter through the PhB. Let the interrogation commence.

1. Abilities - no discussion needed.
2. Races - I'm very humanocentric and I like that the other races are very rare by mechanic.
3. Classes ... I haven't seen a lot of this type of thing in the forums... does that mean they're not in TROS? (please say yes)
4. Feats - Feats are cool but SA from what I understand so far is WAY cooler
5. Skills - How are various activities handled in TROS? I have to admit the d20 skill point system works pretty well. Except for the fact that one stat going up affects so many things (as mentioned by an earlier poster). That also makes unbalanced stats more unbalanced.
6. Equipment - I've read a bit about how weapons are handled. Seems it has a few weeknesses of D&D 2e, that is, the weapons have too many details. In your playing experience what do you think of how weapons are handled? D&D 3e makes things a bit easier with the only major weapon stats being size and damage.
Armor is associated with damage reduction and not being harder to hit, right? That's seems better.
Anything interesting with other equipment?
How is magical items/weapons handled? (if at all)
7. Combat - This is cool enough. As I asked above, is it really as fast as advertised? (Our combats take hours nowadays).
8. Magic - from the time I leafed through the book months ago, I remember this as one of the more attractive features of the game, but with the danger of going way out of control very fast, that is, with regard to having to design spells. What do you think of this aspect? Are there any dangers with min/maxers? (Oh and in response to one of the fireball posters... nitrogen does not explosively combust... and gasses don't experience friction)

Somewhere it was mentioned that magic is very powerful without an "eye to balance." Apparently D&D magic was created with an "eye to balance" at least in 3e, but it is clearly unbalanced.

How unbalanced is magic? Will all of my players want/need to be sorcerors?

The fact that I know the D&D PhB chapters by memory is sad, I know. But that does bring up another question. There have been references to charts. D&D has the "encyclopedia" problem and it's hard to not be a rulebook without requiring reference every now and then, but how much are the charts involved in the game? Do they slow things down? (Like spells do in D&D)


I will tell you that one thing that caught my eye was in the beginning of the book somewhere it said, "We won't make you buy 3 books to play 1 game." THAT's professional.


And finally why do I want to invest in Driftwood? Well, when you see a good product, don't you want to invest in that company? Or to put it in otherwords, when you see something that is this awesome, can you content yourself with just owning a book? Don't you want to really own a piece of it? (Call it Bourgeois capitalism... itmakes the world go 'round.)

That and the prospect that for a heavy enough investment, I can move to UT and write gamebooks for them (and have them rejected, but have fun nonetheless).

And what the hell IS ARMA?


And when I go back to school in DC in September expect me to show up in Richmond...

[Lance D. Allen]

1. Jake ritually sacrifices kittens in his basement. S'true!

Okay, so it's not. Seriously, the reasons given here are valid. My biggest beef with the system in play is the money system. It's very realistic, but it's a real pain in the ass. However, if you're converting an existing campaign, you may not have that problem.

2. Personally, I'd say the best thing to do is to follow the sideline method advised here. If your players are resistant to change, I'd highly recommend against converting an existing campaign. They'll be leery of the changes, and unhappy about such things as "well my character could do this and this, before. This game sucks!" Begin anew with a whole new game, on the sideline. If the rest of the group begins to show interest, gracefully bring your D&D campaign to an end (or drastically with the big pay-off scene that everyone loves, and that the PCs can retire from, if they don't die a glorious death.)

3. I'll agree with others, that it really depends on the setting. Some settings do lend themselves to TRoS readily, others do not. My question for you is this, however.. If you're catapulting the characters 1000 years into the future, how is it, by any stretch, the same setting? I'll reiterate my advice from above. Start TRoS as a whole new game. The transition pains will be much less, I think.

4. Keep them, sell them, don't burn them. Someone somewhere will probably want them, some day if not today. I dislike D&D and D20 rather intensely, but it's a damned shame to burn a book, or in any other way waste it.

5. Jake?

Other than direct investment, which I'm sure Driftwood would appreciate, I know that they'll appreciate your time and efforts. TRoS is still a small-time game. Most gaming stores have never even heard of it. Pester your store owners and managers to order at least a few copies of the game. Offer to run demos of it, when you get the rules down pat. Spread the word, and Driftwood will grow stronger.

6. Yes. But once you get your hands on the rules, you'll ask them. I'd recommend, if you've not already, starting with the "New to the Forum" threads. A lot of good info there.

[Rattlehead]

I guess it couldn't hurt to have one more voice here.....

Months passed and I forgot all about TROS. I even forgot the name. Then somehow I stumbled upon the website and salvation now lays in my grasp.

Just curious... how did you stumble onto the TROS website?

1. Is there any reason I shouldn't buy TROS? Everything on the website and in this forum says that I should, but are there any hidden and dirty secrets that would make it not worth it? Are there any flaws, major or minor, in the system that could easily be exploited by an unscrupulous player?

Yes, this is something that only you can truly answer. You sound like you're sold on it already though. The only reason I can think of for not buying it is if you were to die. In that case, you should refrain from doing so, as it would be a bit of a waste...

Seriously though, if you have min/maxers then make sure that magic is carefully controlled.... I still think of TROS as an RPG for "advanced" players. If your group is made up of "mature" roleplayers, then it shouldn't be a problem. The game isn't balanced at all - kinda like real life... I like that.

2. How do I get my PCs to switch over considering that all people are resistant to change? (Let's say I have 9 months to do this.)

Give out a few pre-rolled characters and have a couple of duels. Tell them you want to experiment with the combat system and you'd like their help. That will hook them, and the rest will reel them in. The combat system is what hooked me anyway....

Alternately, you could just ask them to try out the QuickStart rules and see what they think....

3. How easily can a D&D 3e campaign world (original) be transfered to TROS?

I have to second Lance here and say that it would probably be best to start a fresh campaign. You could always run both campaigns and alternate on a weekly basis - or how ever often you play.

4. What do I do with all those d20 books? (besides a ritual pyre)

Again, I'm echoing everyone else. Keep them. Keep them always. Give them to your children when you have them and they are old enough. If you just have to get rid of them, then find someone who you think needs them and give them away. It's a good way to promote the hobby and we all know that roleplayers don't grow on trees.... at least not here in the sticks.... :D

5. Can I invest money in Driftwood? (And how much)

What I (and my friends) do is promote the game whenever we can. For example, I don't go on OpenRPG without mentioning the game to at least one person. In fact, Lance does this as well and even went so far as to create TROS nodes for OpenRPG...

6. Are there any other questions that I should be asking?

Beats me.... But they'll come, with time....

Welcome to the fold! :D

Brandon

[Jake Norwood]

What's the ARMA? www.thearma.org

As for the rest...what can I say? I've got a great group of fans here.

Jake

[Mayhem1979]

1. Abilities - no discussion needed.

'Kay

2. Races - I'm very humanocentric and I like that the other races are very rare by mechanic.

Yeah making being one a class A or B priority tends to keep PC non-humans down... and they are very rare in the world.  As in most ppl think they're just fairy tales... and who knows, they may just be right about that.  ;-)

3. Classes ... I haven't seen a lot of this type of thing in the forums... does that mean they're not in TROS? (please say yes)

Yes :)

4. Feats - Feats are cool but SA from what I understand so far is WAY cooler

Feats are just interesting things your characters can do.  SA's are the defineing drives, passions, faith, and destiny of your characters... when they follow these things they are rewarded.  Both in character advancement and in extra dice they can apply to anything that fits that SA.

5. Skills - How are various activities handled in TROS? I have to admit the d20 skill point system works pretty well. Except for the fact that one stat going up affects so many things (as mentioned by an earlier poster). That also makes unbalanced stats more unbalanced.

Skills and Proficencies.  Proficiences are your weapons and magic capabilities (if magic, it's called a vagary though).  Skills are everything else.  You buy them in "packets", which sppeds thing up, and how good you are is definied by your target number in that skill.   You then just roll the appropriate Stat against the TN and there you go :)  Works remarkably well really and is actually rather flexible.

6. Equipment - I've read a bit about how weapons are handled. Seems it has a few weeknesses of D&D 2e, that is, the weapons have too many details. In your playing experience what do you think of how weapons are handled? D&D 3e makes things a bit easier with the only major weapon stats being size and damage.

Every weapon has TN's to do 2-3 basic things (thrust, cut, defend), and each wepon fits into a school of use.  Your character has proficiencies in whichever schools he wants/can afford, which combined with a stat called reflex, gives him his Combat Pool.  Roll you Combat pool Dice (split up as needed) against your weapons TN's.  And thats the basic idea.  

Armor is associated with damage reduction and not being harder to hit, right? That's seems better.

plays better too.  After all wearing a full suit of plate makes you EASIER to hit... just a hell of a lot harder to hurt.

Anything interesting with other equipment?

a rope is a rope is a rope really... anything special is left up to the GM really.  Though there are cost charts for pretty much everything in the book.

How is magical items/weapons handled? (if at all)

Very Rare, very hard to make.  Usually of fairly limited use, but mainly left up to the GM's discretion.

7. Combat - This is cool enough. As I asked above, is it really as fast as advertised? (Our combats take hours nowadays).

Depends, it's typically rare to go more than a handful of rounds (in my group more than two is rare)  But if both sides are well armored and palying conservatively it could take a whil.

8. Magic - from the time I leafed through the book months ago, I remember this as one of the more attractive features of the game, but with the danger of going way out of control very fast, that is, with regard to having to design spells. What do you think of this aspect? Are there any dangers with min/maxers? (Oh and in response to one of the fireball posters... nitrogen does not explosively combust... and gasses don't experience friction)

Magic is DEADLY, no matter how low level you are.  You just have to be smart in how you use it or it's going to be deadly to the caster as well.  Balanced is never a word I'd apply to it.  But it's an A Priority, hugely rare, and tends to get ppl burned at  the stake throughout most of the game world.  Designing spells is based on a recipe system.  9 schools (vagaries) of magic, each with three levels, each school and level has a range of effects it can achieve... and you mix and match to get what you want.  But because all of this draws on a sorcerers life energy... if you're not careful you age (elves are immortal, they only age through magic)... and potentially black out.  Which can be a really bad thing in a fight. :)

[Morfedel]

Actually, Magic is a B priority, heh! :)

[SheWolf]

LOL best way to get your group involved? Do what Rattlehead and Deus did. . . refuse to run/play in a 3E campaign! Seriously, I like TROS all right, it's just a lot different from D&D. Ask Ratt, he'll tell ya I'm a rabid fan of D&D. TROS looks like it's going to be really good for me, in the roleplaying vs. ROLLplaying aspect. But, for massive kicks, I still love 3e. Couse, Deus has cancelled TWICE now. . . so I've only played one session. . . Naw, I'm not annoyed. . . much.

SheWolf

[Rattlehead]

Actually, he goes by Draigh on this board..... heh..

Brandon

[Agnar]

Thanks everyone!

Today's my birthday, perfect excuse to get the game. Timing is everything. (I'm never going to be a teenager again...)


As for "stumbling onto the website," I actually glossed over a bit to make the story easier to tell. There was a list of "Employee favorites" in the back of the store and Riddle of Steel was listed. The name rang a bell and a quick Yahoo! search led me here.


Jake was on and he didn't answer my question about investment...

How come TROS isn't available from Amazon? But it's available direct, so no problem. :)

[Brian Leybourne]

Jake was on and he didn't answer my question about investment...

Seriously, one of the best investments you can probably make has been suggested already - make sure all of your friends and your local RPG community know about TROS and buys a copy. Promote it in the store. Run a few demos perhaps. If people know about TROS then they're liking it. If they're liking it then they're buying it, etc.

And get everyone you know to pre-order a copy of OBAM from Jake too... :-)

Brian.

[Rattlehead]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

And thanks for indulging my curiosity.

Brandon