The Forge Forums Read-only Archives
The live Forge Forums
|
Articles
|
Reviews
Welcome,
Guest
. Please
login
or
register
.
August 10, 2022, 04:04:20 PM
1 Hour
1 Day
1 Week
1 Month
Forever
Login with username, password and session length
Forum changes:
Editing of posts has been turned off until further notice.
Search:
Advanced search
275647
Posts in
27717
Topics by
4285
Members Latest Member:
-
Jason DAngelo
Most online today:
77
- most online ever:
565
(October 17, 2020, 02:08:06 PM)
The Forge Archives
Archive
GNS Model Discussion
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
Pages:
1
[
2
]
« previous
next »
Author
Topic: Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere! (Read 10311 times)
Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
Member
Posts: 16490
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
«
Reply #15 on:
June 12, 2003, 08:02:35 AM »
Hello,
Problem 1: people are still thinking about individual decisions in very small units of time. This is not valid for GNS discussions. GNS operates at along social lines of communication across multiple decisions - that's what "priority," "goal," and "mode" are all supposed to be driving at, as terms.
Cassidy, when you write ...
Quote
"Is there a lock? No? OK then, I'll try and hold the door shut as best I can."
Even a simple statement like that could be Sim.
... the scale that you're operating at is simply not an appropriate one for the discussion. You're talking about Exploration, and identifying that activity as being present is not GNS-relevant.
The presence of Exploration does not tag the instance of game-play as being Simulationist. For some reason, thinking that it does has cropped up throughout this thread - in fact, it's the essence of Jack's error in his first post. That others are compounding the error boggles me.
Problem 2: "Presence of all three ..." in a
game
. The focus needs to be on play. That's what GNS is about. Taking our attention to game design is a secondary level of analysis, and I'm very reluctant to do so in the context of the error that's being perpetuated in the thread so far.
Best,
Ron
Logged
Jack Spencer Jr
Guest
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
«
Reply #16 on:
June 12, 2003, 09:26:28 AM »
Quote from: Ron Edwards
The presence of Exploration does not tag the instance of game-play as being Simulationist. For some reason, thinking that it does has cropped up throughout this thread - in fact, it's the essence of Jack's error in his first post. That others are compounding the error boggles me.
The problem, then seems to be how to tell whether something is a priority or not. I know that I, and I would imagine plenty of others here still do not get what GNS keys on. It's not a single event of an instance of play over several event or decision that the GNS priority is seen. How does one differentiate straightforward G or N play which contains Exploration vs GS or NS hybrid play?
Logged
Cassidy
Member
Posts: 165
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
«
Reply #17 on:
June 12, 2003, 09:36:10 AM »
Quote from: Ron Edwards
... the scale that you're operating at is simply not an appropriate one for the discussion. You're talking about Exploration, and identifying that activity as being present is not GNS-relevant.
My interpretation of what constituted an "instance of play" was clearly incorrect. Thanks for pointing it out.
Logged
taalyn
Member
Posts: 370
Aidan Grey
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
«
Reply #18 on:
June 12, 2003, 10:09:41 AM »
Ba vocab on my part, Ron. I meant "a game as played" or "a session", not game design. Well, okay, I meant game design a little, which is wrong, but predominantly, I meant, a game session.
Aidan
Logged
Aidan Grey
Crux
Live the Abnatural
Ian Charvill
Member
Posts: 377
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
«
Reply #19 on:
June 12, 2003, 10:13:13 AM »
It seems to me that the only decisions one needs to consider re GNS are those where two or more of the modes come into conflict. So it's not about whether you prioritize setting, it's about whther you prioritize setting at the expense of story, frex.
So a decision to explore every back alley of the seedy docks district because you're really enjoying the atmosphere even though there's no challenge involved in doing so and it doesn't advance the plot would be a decision where simulationist priorities were expressed.
Choosing to explore when there is no challenge or story at stake isn't simulationist -as far as I understand it - only choosing to explore at the expense of challenge or story.
When I'm thinking of simulationist play I tend to think of Paul Mason's Imazine, and his emphasis on immersion and his ideas about culture games.
Logged
Ian Charvill
Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
Member
Posts: 16490
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
«
Reply #20 on:
June 12, 2003, 10:18:28 AM »
Hello,
Jack, that's why we go to actual play to talk about this stuff most concretely. Check out some of my posts about Tunnels & Trolls - that's where I try to talk about real Gamist priorities, in action. Check out my posts about The Riddle of Steel, or Fvlminata. These are only a few examples.
Ian, your "back alley" example doesn't really illustrate the crucial "at the expense of" element of Simulationist play. Your other points are all on-the-mark, though.
I also want to mention something else, apropos of my Gamist essay - people are flinging the term "Challenge" around all over the place, in reference to its "necessary presence" in Gamist play. I think they are missing the point - that
Step On Up is the key ingredient of Gamist play
, and that "Challenge" is merely a re-labelling of Situation when Step On Up is active.
Best,
Ron
Logged
Ian Charvill
Member
Posts: 377
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
«
Reply #21 on:
June 12, 2003, 10:43:42 AM »
Ron,
To check that I'm understanding your last point:
it's not that there is a challenge that make's it gamist, it's that the player is challenged and gets (or stands to get) some kind of gain within the social group (winning, kudos) by rising to that challenge?
Logged
Ian Charvill
Ron Edwards
Global Moderator
Member
Posts: 16490
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
«
Reply #22 on:
June 12, 2003, 10:51:31 AM »
Hi Ian,
Right - and that the "rising" (Step On Up, meaning kudos is on the line) is socially acknowledged as the point of play.
It ain't Gamism unless you (you!) can
lose
.
Best,
Ron
Logged
Jason Lee
Member
Posts: 729
Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
«
Reply #23 on:
June 12, 2003, 01:10:29 PM »
Giving kudos to M.J. for a nice positive definition for Sim agenda.
I guess the way I'm seeing GNS here is like the color (creative agenda) of sand. You go to the beach and pick up a handful (instance of play), and say "hey look, white sand!" If you start looking at individual grains of sand (individual decision points) you see all sorts of different colors, and you lose sight of what color the beach is.
I guess that's just a metaphor for what Ron has been saying, "GNS dunna work all little like." (well...maybe he was a
little
more eloquent about it ;) ).
That seems to makes sense to me for Sim as an positive, individual priority.
I guess my problem is that I'd like to look at the individual grains. When I look at individual decisions I see G/N as actually making the decision and S simply limitting your choice of options. I see the negative definition for Sim; it seems like a different beast than G and N; it never makes its own decisions; it just colors G or N decisions.
Logged
- Cruciel
Pages:
1
[
2
]
« previous
next »
Jump to:
Please select a destination:
-----------------------------
Welcome to the Archives
-----------------------------
=> Welcome to the Archives
-----------------------------
General Forge Forums
-----------------------------
=> First Thoughts
=> Playtesting
=> Endeavor
=> Actual Play
=> Publishing
=> Connections
=> Conventions
=> Site Discussion
-----------------------------
Archive
-----------------------------
=> RPG Theory
=> GNS Model Discussion
=> Indie Game Design
-----------------------------
Independent Game Forums
-----------------------------
=> Adept Press
=> Arkenstone Publishing
=> Beyond the Wire Productions
=> Black and Green Games
=> Bully Pulpit Games
=> Dark Omen Games
=> Dog Eared Designs
=> Eric J. Boyd Designs
=> Errant Knight Games
=> Galileo Games
=> glyphpress
=> Green Fairy Games
=> Half Meme Press
=> Incarnadine Press
=> lumpley games
=> Muse of Fire Games
=> ndp design
=> Night Sky Games
=> one.seven design
=> Robert Bohl Games
=> Stone Baby Games
=> These Are Our Games
=> Twisted Confessions
=> Universalis
=> Wild Hunt Studios
-----------------------------
Inactive Forums
-----------------------------
=> My Life With Master Playtest
=> Adamant Entertainment
=> Bob Goat Press
=> Burning Wheel
=> Cartoon Action Hour
=> Chimera Creative
=> CRN Games
=> Destroy All Games
=> Evilhat Productions
=> HeroQuest
=> Key 20 Publishing
=> Memento-Mori Theatricks
=> Mystic Ages Online
=> Orbit
=> Scattershot
=> Seraphim Guard
=> Wicked Press
=> Review Discussion
=> XIG Games
=> SimplePhrase Press
=> The Riddle of Steel
=> Random Order Creations
=> Forge Birthday Forum