Which proficiency?

[Tuomo Aimonen]

Why is there no proficiency for fighting with spear and shield? Should one just use the Sword & Shileld without the Cut offensive maneuver?

Tuomo

[Mayhem1979]

There's no proficency for it becasue no-one really does it as a hand-to-hand thing.  Lots of ppl over the years have used throwing spears with sheilds.... but in HtH you need both hands on the spear for it to be effective really.

[toli]

There's no proficency for it becasue no-one really does it as a hand-to-hand thing.  Lots of ppl over the years have used throwing spears with sheilds.... but in HtH you need both hands on the spear for it to be effective really.

There should be some prof in it.  Spear and shield would have been the primary infantry weapon combination for most of history.  In most cases, it probably would have been a mass combat weapon but not in all.  There are certainly descriptions in Homer of individual combat with spear and shield.  (lot of throwing too of course).  I believe the Zulu used a short spear and shield.  

Perhaps just use sword and shield without the cut and up the ATN of the shield for one handed use.

[Jake Norwood]

So write one up. The europeans in medieval times didn't spend much time with it, hence it's exclusion.

Jake

[Gary_Bingham]

There's no proficency for it becasue no-one really does it as a hand-to-hand thing.  Lots of ppl over the years have used throwing spears with sheilds.... but in HtH you need both hands on the spear for it to be effective really.

Tell that to the Spartans!

[zeke023]

Now, I'm no historian... but I am a heavy weapons fighter in the SCA.  I've seen one person try to fight with a spear and shield.  It was abysmal.

Unless you're talking about a short-spear, spears are just far too long to use one-handed.  They become unbalanced due to their size.  You thrust out once and they just fall to the ground and get stepped on.

Besides, again I may be wrong - as the whole "not a historian" thing, but I thought the romans mostly used short swords with their shields - and the phalanx used men with huge shields and men with spears behind them (using them two-handed).

[Lance D. Allen]

The romans did use a short spear, called a pilum I believe, with their shields. When they formed a phalanx, they would often jut their spears out to keep off cavalry. I believe Mike once mentioned the pilum as well, as it was sometimes cast at an enemy's shield to weight the shield down and make it worthless while the legionnaires would then close in with short swords, and their shields still intact.

[zeke023]

The romans did use a short spear.

Yeah - I would assume the use of a short spear with a sheild is not uncommon in all of history.  The Zulus for instance.

Now the short spear was used overhanded... and most could be thrown, correct?
The long spear of medieval europe was sometimes eight feet long and was used underhanded for thrusting only?

I'm not looking any of this up, but if memory serves, this is true.

In terms of combat maneuvers in TROS, I can't imagine that the short spear would allow for much different mechanics than the short sword aside from being thrown?

-Z

[Tuomo Aimonen]

Yeah - I would assume the use of a short spear with a sheild is not uncommon in all of history.  The Zulus for instance.

No it really isn't at all uncommon. The 5 to 6 foot spear and shield were the most common weapons of the medieval soldiery for centuries. ( about until the 14th century) They were the most available and versatile weapons for the masses to use. Such a spear is a long reach weaopn and can also be thrown if necessary. The shield is a necessity for the spear armed, unarmored infantry or else they would die all too quick. The Anglo -Saxon shieldwall at Hastings was composed of just this type of troops of the Kings fyrd. And ofcourse the formidable housecarls with their mails and daneaxes.

What ho.

[Mike Holmes]

Lance, the pilum was meant only to be thrown, and couldn't be used effectively in any way in close combat. In fact, the heads were soft so that when thrown (and hopefully sticking in a shield), the long head of the pilum would get bent, and be useless for throwing back without repair.

In Europe, during all ages, spears were not intended for use on a battlefield outside of a formation. Hoplites forming Phalanxes carried swords as well so that they'd have an efffective weapon when their formation broke up. Given the difficulty of maneuvering such a formation, the Romans never used the spear, and defeated phalanxes handily on most meetings.

Like Tuomo said, it's a cheap weapon, and what you give a peasant to fight in a group (assuming he doesn't come with some other suitable farming implement to use). When his formation breaks up, he generally runs.

The Zulu short spear has a long blade, and is balanced. Basically it's a weird looking thrusting sword.

Consider how hard it is to wield a spear one handed. Two-handed, without a shield, however, is a totally different prospect. Lot's of similarities with staff-fighting, or other polearm use.

Mike

[toli]

Specific usage aside, spear and shield was probably the most common war time combination for foot soldiers for most of classical to medieval time periods (well aside from the celts and romans who like swords).  I believe in medieval armies, that it was largely used as a definsive, mass formation weapon to ward off enemy cavalry while your own cavalry rested or regrouped.  

Those points aside, there should presumably still be some prof in spear and shield.  Obviously, one would expect the ATN for the spear to be fairly high due to the unweildy nature of the spear.  I imagine it would also be fairly simple and without too many maneuvers.  Thrust, Block, Block and Thrust...

NT

[Tuomo Aimonen]

Those points aside, there should presumably still be some prof in spear and shield.  Obviously, one would expect the ATN for the spear to be fairly high due to the unweildy nature of the spear.  I imagine it would also be fairly simple and without too many maneuvers.  Thrust, Block, Block and Thrust...

This is basically what I had in mind. I just thought that maybe someone had already done the work for me. Its not the manuvers but the defaults that I find hard to assign.

[prophet118]

Specific usage aside, spear and shield was probably the most common war time combination for foot soldiers for most of classical to medieval time periods (well aside from the celts and romans who like swords).  I believe in medieval armies, that it was largely used as a definsive, mass formation weapon to ward off enemy cavalry while your own cavalry rested or regrouped.  

Those points aside, there should presumably still be some prof in spear and shield.  Obviously, one would expect the ATN for the spear to be fairly high due to the unweildy nature of the spear.  I imagine it would also be fairly simple and without too many maneuvers.  Thrust, Block, Block and Thrust...

NT

so.. nevermind that this combination wasnt exactly used as you are wanting it... right?... as mike mention, the roman spear wasnt used as a thrust weapon, it was a throwing spear.... give me one example, backed up with facts, of where the spear was used as a thrust weapon, along with a shield, on the field of combat..  in close combat...

and... well dont mention SCA or ARMA stuff... i respect both groups, but to put it bluntly, they arent the originals... give me some historical proof...

jake has mentioned for you to write one up... i agree with him, and also agree with the exclusion of the "style"... because this game is from a european aspect... were it from an oriental standpoint, we wouldnt be woirying about this, or half of the other styles in the book...

so... thrusting with a spear, is best done with 2 hand, for control, and for maximum damage.... i could understand the use of a buckler... but not a normal or bigger shield

[prophet118]

honestly, just use pole weapon... raise the ATN..this style is more of a matter of "ahh shit, the footmen are coming closer, i cant throw my spear, i might as well try and stab someone... aww damn they have swords... sheild time"

its a style of neccessity

[prophet118]

now im not trying to get anyone mad, im just asking for examples... i know the phalanx approach is for shields and spears... but everything i have seen, shows the shields attached to their forearms, with them thrusting with both hands... so they are wielding a shield in one hand, and a spear in the other...

however were you to do just that, it'd be tough, to do the pahalanx method, use pole weapon (or whatever is used for spears)... then raise the ATN, and probably the DTN as well, decrease manueverability as well