Can RPG's be collectable?

[Sylus Thane]

Now I don't mean in the sense "I collect rpg's because I like them" but more in the sense of how Magic Cards are collectable. Other card games can be collected and worth something because some are rare and the like and I'm wondering if this could be done with an RPG or if someone has ever tried?

Sylus

[ethan_greer]

Hi Sylus, Dragon Storm is a collectable card RPG.  I know nothing about it other than its existence, but they have a website - //www.dragonstorm.com.

[xiombarg]

I own some of the cards. I wasn't very impressed. Limiting your options to the advantages/disadvantages of the cards you physically own, as randomly determined by the starter set and boosters, seems like taking random chargen to an extreme. Also, the game seemed very combat-oriented, a RPG only in the sense that Talisman is an RPG.

YMMV, of course.

[damion]

I own some of the cards. I wasn't very impressed. Limiting your options to the advantages/disadvantages of the cards you physically own, as randomly determined by the starter set and boosters, seems like taking random chargen to an extreme. Also, the game seemed very combat-oriented, a RPG only in the sense that Talisman is an RPG.

YMMV, of course.

The basic tenent of collectable games is that you are somehow limited by what you own,  so people will buy more cards/whatever

I can see three ways of doing this:

1)I can imagine, say DnD with a limitation that you have to have the card for a feat to use it. You could also do this for things like items and spells. This would be pretty gamist, as it's built into the system( your inherently competeing with others to have more cards). GM's would have to buy special packs that had monstors in them they could use.


2)One could use the cards as some sort of random generator(could do random chargen also, like xiombarg mentioned). I.e. maybe there are a few times in the RPG where cards control some sort of event. In this case more cards gives you more flexibiilty, but no other real advantage.  
(I can sorta picture something like multiverser, where you 'draw'  a new body when you come to a new world. Cards could also control things like relationships for instance. )


3)Another intersting thing might be to have, instead of a traditional module, a pack of cards.

The GM would draw these cards to set up some details for the module and to control some parts of it.  Basicly, the cards could control events that players don't have control over. Say at some point the players have a couple things they can do, they pick one and the cards resolve the some other events. (I.e. if the players don't intercept caravan X, someone else might, which could help or hurt the players)

This might help in a Sim sense, to give the impression that world outside the players exists more, while reducing the GM's load. Honeslty, I'm not sure it's all that good an idea(I'm not a big module fan, and this isn't THAT big an improvment) but it might be interesting.

[Cadriel]

To be the voice of dissent (which is sad, considering I actually like some of these games)...cards and RPGs do not have a successful history.  See:

-Everway.  Included two sets of cards, one for fortune resolution, one for character generation inspiration.  Nifty idea.  Didn't catch on, but cards alone cannot be blamed.

-Changeling.  For years people were afraid of it because of the Cantrip cards.  They should've known better and been afraid of the Storyteller System.  ;-)

-SAGA.  Very nifty card-based resolution for the Dragonlance and Marvel games of the 1990s.  Neither did very well or lived all that long.

Seriously, doing cards in RPGs is a very expensive outing.  Everway was Wizards of the Coast, Changeling was White Wolf, and SAGA was TSR...big companies with a lot of push still couldn't pull it off.  I suspect that while you might have *some* degree of success, the cards would wind up looking more like Cheapass Games than Everway.

I'm not saying that cards can't have a good impact on games; in fact, I actually think that they can.  It's just that they're not a really economically sound or easy element to incorporate.

-Wayne

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I also suggest making some distinctions among these terms and concepts.

1. Customizable vs. collectable. They are not the same things - a card game like Magic is customizable (in that you can build unique decks after buying tons of cards), but it is not collectable unless people are, well, collecting it.

In fact, I'd like to specify that nothing can be designated collectable at the point of primary production. Something is "collected" insofar as it is made eligible, through demand, to the secondary or "used" marketplace. This is only established through demand, and attempts by producers to establish it by emblazoning "Collector's Edition!" or "New! Collectable!" on the package are meaningless.

2. Components vs. functional engine.

For instance, Everway utilizes cards with images on them. Extra packs with more images were sold as add-ons. They were neither required, added new ways to play, nor uniquely suited for play (i.e. you could use any image, from any card or book for that matter). They're nice, and I own a few packs, but they are neither "customizers" nor "collectables."

Whereas the dice for Throwing Stones were more like Magic cards - you needed certain dice in order to achieve certain in-game effects.

3. Blind packaging vs. known-contents packaging. Contrary to popular (publisher) belief, blind packaging does not automatically render the product "collectable."

Best,
Ron

[Jonathan Walton]

There are a couple of old threads where I blabbed on about having deck-based characters.  The idea was based on Theme Decks (which show up all the time in CCGs), but, in this case, the deck would represent all of the character's abilities and potential powers.  Then, you'd draw a hand which would be what your character could do at that particular point in time.  If such a game were marketed properly (and there are some somewhat similar games out there), you'd collect more cards not to make your character more powerful, but to make them different (Sampat's Law of Character Development: experience changes you, instead of making you better).  Or you could make different kinds of characters than the ones allowed by the original set.

For a while, I was thinking of coming up with a basic conceptual design, using Tarot or Poker cards.  Where you'd just buy several identical decks a custom-build yourself a character (5 sevens-of-hearts, 3 Knights-of-Wands, etc.).  I think there's great potential in a design like this.  White Wolf tried something similar with their Changeling card game, Arcadia, but failed horribly.  Doesn't mean the basic idea has problems

[Reprisal]

As far as I know, Tabletop Roleplaying Games in Japan verge on half-RPG material and half-Artbook -- so there's a measure of being able to collect them. I hear the art in those types of books are quite excellent.

- John.

[Adrian Jay]

Hey John, if RPGs ever become a collector's item, "The Stack" could bring in a fair amount of cash. Not that you'd part with it.

[efindel]

Personally, I'd say that we've already had "collectable RPGs" in the sense that Magic is a "collectable card game" -- witness Ron's statement about what one guy with an Arduin Grimoire could do to a D&D game.  In the early '80s, when I first started playing, it was quite common for folks who had certain sets of "special rules" to use them... and for other players not to be able to use them unless the person who had them was willing to share.

--Travis

[damion]

Just to make another point

I know I originally started 'gaming' in a vague sense by playing wargames, and then shifted to RPG's because they were more fun. Another advantage was that they were cheaper. I think a game that need large numbers of cards would present something of an economic barrier.  (In an economic sense I've met two types of RPG'ers. Those who have a large number of games and those who have EVERYTHING for one game.)  I'm saying a card based game might be 'less collectable' in a RPG sense due to economic reasons. Maybe not though.

[Sylus Thane]

Sorry it took so long to jump back into this.

When I looked at RPG's being collectable I actually envisioned it not including cards. But perhaps more along the lines of limited print runs like some comics. Or doing something that involved a specific setting.

For example, my fantasy setting Dawn of the Magi has magic as being rare. It could be neat to actually do small runs of spell books that couldn't be found everywhere, or info on artifacts that don't reach every store. In this I think it could be collectable while making the setting also a little more interactive although I'm sure there would be some serious logistics involved.

[Lxndr]

Maybe "collectible" looseleaf pages that, when put together, form different versions/copies of the rules?  Though I'll admit I'd prefer the idea of "collectible" character traits, somehow.  "Wow!  A strength of 18/00!  That's rare!"

And, of course, collectible GM traits too.  Probably have to set it up so that each card/item could be EITHER a character trait, or a GM tool.

[Jason Aaron]

Some interesting ideas on this so far. However, as Ron pointed out, there is a difference between customizable and collectible, and just attempting to make a game collectible doesn't mean it will be.

As has been said before, "there's no accounting for the public's taste."

That being said, maybe the focus should not be on how to make a game collectible, but to make it stand out in a unique way that gives it a "hook." A "hook" is anything that keeps your game on peoples' minds. Even if it is something extremely simple, if it sticks in their brain long enough and often enough, it will eventually lead to them coming back to it, bringing their friends to it, and on and on and on ad naseum.

The music and advertising industries know this trick well. How many times have you caught yourself humming a tune or repeating a phrase from a song or a jingle? Even if it bugs the crap out of you, it still sticks in your head. And the hope is that eventually you'll buy the CD, or the product, and thus the "hook" has got you. There are other things that are "hooks", like a movie that is done very well, but leaves enough of it's plot and dialogue vague that you will likely see it once or twice more to gain a deeper understanding of the subject material, or because it's really "cool."

So, maybe including some of the ideas presented here will provide that "hook" that brings people back to your game. As for limiting print runs, IMHO, the goal is to have as many people play your game as possible, and so limiting runs of the game mechanics probably won't do anything but frustrate folks that want to play the game. As far as I can see, only artwork or some other facet of the game I can't picture right now could make the game itself collectible (I still think "In high demand" is better terminology for RPGs).

[Comte]

When I looked at RPG's being collectable I actually envisioned it not including cards. But perhaps more along the lines of limited print runs like some comics. Or doing something that involved a specific setting.

Well in that sense RPGs are already collectable.  Ever see a first edition of Kult go up on Ebay?  I have sold for almost three times the actual cost of the book and it wasn't even in very good condition.  I've seen a couple of others and the results were generaly the same.

The same goes for Paranoia.  While the suppliments come and go fairly cheaply the second eddition rulebook will quickly and gracefuly shoot to around 50 bucks before the end of the bidding.  

The same goes for Planescape, certain D&D first edition suplements, and a couple of other odd ball things.

All of my above examples have 2 things in common, they all sell for a revolting amount of money and they are all out of print.  Like Ron said we are only going to collect things that we want to collect.  As a consumer I have to say, no matter how great your game is, I'm not going to shell out 10 bucks just to own the special collectors edition of something I already own.  Also I certainly am not going to shell out ten extra bucks for a product that I can get for cheaper without a fancy leather cover.


However, what do I know.  Call of the Cthullu released a buntch of special edition rulebooks.  Real fancy looking htings, very pretty.  Perhaps someone could do some arm twisting and see if they made any money off of them.  I don't know how to do it.  I think once we figgure out how that works we can move up from there.