Thoughtcrime (formerly Iron City) - concept sketch

[W. Don]

Hello.

I'm doing some backtracking and much trashing of drafts with my little project (the last post concerning which is here: The Iron City: Secrets and Subversives). I've gone in and retooled my initial focus somewhat. This is what has turned up:

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THOUGHTCRIME: IRON CITY

The Game In Brief: You are the worst kind of criminal, and in this world, the only kind of criminal that truly deserves to hang. You are a subversive and seditionist, a traitor to the state. You are the madman waiting on the horizon to strike at the bustling hive of order and civilization called The City. Driven to this life of villainy by a desire for vengeance, you must now pit your wits against society's greatest weapon, the Secret Police. So, what'll it be? Che Guevarra or Osama Bin Laden? It's your choice.

Literary (and not-so-literary influences on the game): 1984 by George Orwell, The Man Who Was Thrusday by GK Chesterton, the Metropolis films (both the Fritz Lang original and the Osamu Tezuka anime), Captain Nemo and other characters from HG Wells' novels, Repent Harlequin said the Tick-Tock Man by Harlan Ellison, and Mojo Jojo from the Powerpuff Girls cartoon series.

Setting Sketch: An ultra-stylised cartoon-ish steampunk city. Bowler hats and gasmasks. Massive urban sprawl full of hidden levels, gigantic skyscrapers, factories spewing gouts of smoke and steam, a comprehensive people-mover system of steam-powered locomotives, elevators, and trams. Gargantuan airships and sputtering gyroflyers dot the sky. Retro-style gearjacks (robots with human brains) collared for manual labour and all sorts of clerical tasks -- in a sense, these are The City's slave population. The rest of the population includes both humans and savants. Savants are, well uhm, "furries", anthropomorphic animals (of the Wind In The Willows type). The savants represent The City's migrant population (which also means that the human population is all caucasian -- so, yes, I'm going for stereotypes here.)

The Player-Characters: The PCs are anarchists fighting against the system. Essentially they are criminals, with motive, means, and opportunities which they themselves will explore throughout the game. Their "deviancies" from the accepted norm include not only a motive for striking back and their means for doing so; but also form the basis by which the system's Secret Police will be hunting them and their allies down.

Role of the Setting: The City is essentially a modular "snap-on" setting. It provides some basic structure and flavor, but it gains more and more stability in terms of where hidden bases, secret tunnels, and such are located as play progresses. The player-characters themselves are given directorial power over this to some degree. They are the anarchists of the game after all, and represent that random flash of chaotic lightning that "the system" must deal with.

Role of the Gamemaster: The Gamemaster takes on the roles of the City's "system" and it's agents, The Secret Police. The GM (and to some extent the players) have directorial power over how The City reacts to the actions of the anarchists, which people significant to the PCs the system might target next, etc.

Some Rules Concepts: Each anarchist character always begins with a Motive -- a significant point where he begins to question the system and starts to build resources (whether intra-personal such as an exceptional talent at making bombs, or extra-personal such as his own secret lab under the sewers). The Motive's strength goes up during the course of play, depending on what the character will be risking (allies, self, other PCs), and how the system counter- attacks (example: the Secret Police end up killing a friend, Motive thus goes up in strength).

Aside from stengthening Motive, advancement will also reflect greater power over certain elements of the setting such as secret bases, hidden laboratories, networks of contacts, the sheer power of infamy, and so on -- ie: advancement equals more anarchic power, but also equals riskier opportunities.

There's also the idea of "deviancy" -- that the criminal anarchist is a deviant (a genesis of which is in his Motive), and so I'm looking at how to turn this deviancy into traits or measures in the game.

The players are rated on one or perhaps several scales of "fame" and "infamy". Since the actions of the PCs will place their allies and other significant people in the line of fire, the effects of their actions will eventually result in a tug between the "Che Guevarra" side or the "Osama" side of things.

The Secret Police are everywhere. Which means for each significant strike against the system that the players enact, a set of Leads are gained. These Leads can pop up as "extra dice" (extra effectivity) possessed by various agents of the system within a scene. Furthermore, the players get to choose just how much of the Leads they've thus far incurred get played into a particular scene. However, the specific person in which this extra effectivity is placed on is up to the GM -- you never know who the Secret Police really are until the last moment.

As the individuals in the Cell (the PC group) follow their villainous adventures, they begin to take either side of the Che-Osama dichotomy. The more varied the members of a Cell are in this regard, the more likely a Secret Police agent will arise from among their own ranks. I'm also thinking of some way for the players to actually declare where the Leads will show up, as long as it is within their own ranks.

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Granted, the above is just another sketch on the drawing board. However, this one's getting more and more closer to the feel/style and theme areas I'm keen to explore, those areas I'd like to humbly ask the gallery for a bit of help with.

Some questions:

I know that questioning your own motives, might just be gazing at one's own navel, but is the emphasis as outlined above leaning toward a more narrativist game, or a more gamist game?

From a narrativist design point-of-view, which elements of those outlined above stike you as worthwhile enough to develop? Also, just from a more general gamer standpoint, which elements strike you as interesting? Is there even any with some potential at all?

Finally, concerning the whole PCs as "villains" and "hunted criminals" set-up, would you know of some good games out there that tackle this?

Thank you very much for taking a look. And best wishes for your own games.

- W.

[scobie]

Looks good on initial gloss, I'll have a think.  I guess the biggest danger is that the political issues be dealt with too simplistically (a la The Matrix) and you end up with a cartoon.   It would be good if the system provided a way of staging ethical dilemmas, faustian deals and modelled the politics - not sure how that would work...

Love the Furries.  Are you with me Comrade Mole?

I'd recommend the anime film Jin Roh: THe Wolf Brigade.

Also, The Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad.  On a lighter note, the 'Comrade Bingo' story in the Jeeves & Wooster tv series - not sure what short story it came from..

Scobie

[W. Don]

...I guess the biggest danger is that the political issues be dealt with too simplistically (a la The Matrix) and you end up with a cartoon. It would be good if the system provided a way of staging ethical dilemmas, faustian deals and modelled the politics - not sure how that would work...

Love the Furries.  Are you with me Comrade Mole?

Thanks for the response, scobie!

In many ways, sometimes I think an "animated feature" is what I'm working towards here, a sort of "mature cartoon" -- thanks for pointing out the possible danger of over-simplification. Right now, I'm still trying to focus my notes on some of the things you've mentioned, in particular the ethical dilemmas. The politics modelling has been somewhat initially defined with the following broad strokes:

- the furries represent migrant stereotypes, so that each specific "species" represents an ethnic group (non-City natives); I'm setting them up to represent the "better than slave, less than master" slice of the City population -- essentially artisans, skilled but poor workers, and so on.

- the gearjacks represent the most abused, controlled, and least deviant (at least in way of thinking) slice of the population.

- the more "non-standard" your way of life, the more the Secret Police will be looking into you; so the more obscure and mundane a character is the less risk you will face (but ultimately the less effectivity you possess); the more capers you pull off the more non-standard you become.

I really have to do a lot more work where this game is concerned, so I'll leave things at that for now. I might be able to provide some sort of update in a month or two, when I finally make some good and solid headway beyond the drawing board stage.

Thanks also for Jin-Roh and the other suggestions -- I'll be looking into them. I'll be raiding the classics as well (Secret Agent like you've said, and maybe Graham Greene now that I've thought about it).

Cheers!

- W.

[Jonathan Walton]

For other influence, pick up the first couple of "Scion" graphic novels from Crossgen Comics (or get a subscription to the online version of their comic library).  They're great for old/high-tech, enslaved-furries-serving-humans stuff.  And the writing and art are incredible.  Leans a little more towards the tropes of the sword-and-sorcery genre than what you're doing, but similar on several levels.  Of course, you may be familiar with it already...

[Chris Goodwin]

You mention Mojo Jojo, but have you looked at Samurai Jack?

[Daredevil]

I really 'get' this game idea. It resonates with me pretty strongly. Excellent work thus far!

I was thinking about the deviancy aspect you mentioned and thought of something interesting. How about the City being ordered in a rather strict caste system and every player character having his background in one of these castes which would define the beginning 'skills'/'traits' that the character had. The city's system not only promotes but enforces its citizens to be good workers with just the right skills and to not develop themselves out of the mold. So, every additional trait a character would have would make it easier for the Secret Police to get a Lead on the character. The caste skills could be basic things like Engineering, Menial Labour and so on, while the deviant skills could include pretty much everything from Charismatic Speaker to Demolitions.

I feel this idea ties in the deviancy and character effectiveness nicely.

The caste system could also neatly introduce a shady ruling caste if that feels appropiate for the setting.

That's just a first idea concerning the setting, let's see if I can propose a few others later.

- Joachim Buchert -

[W. Don]

...pick up the first couple of "Scion" graphic novels from Crossgen Comics (or get a subscription to the online version of their comic library). They're great for old/high-tech, enslaved-furries-serving- humans stuff...

Took a brief look at Scion via the Crossgen website, Jonathan. Thanks for the tip. Looks good. I'm noting it down and adding to my growing list of reference material.

...You mention Mojo Jojo, but have you looked at Samurai Jack?

I completely forgot Samurai Jack! Thanks for this one, Chris. It resonates well with what I had in mind -- that is, part of the game concerns the players slowly becoming either a "Mojo Jojo" (ie: villainous mastermind) or a "Samurai Jack" (ie: noble fugitive).

I was thinking about the deviancy aspect you mentioned and thought of something interesting. How about the City being ordered in a rather strict caste system and every player character having his background in one of these castes which would define the beginning 'skills'/'traits' that the character had. The city's system not only promotes but enforces its citizens to be good workers with just the right skills and to not develop themselves out of the mold. So, every additional trait a character would have would make it easier for the Secret Police to get a Lead on the character. The caste skills could be basic things like Engineering, Menial Labour and so on, while the deviant skills could include pretty much everything from Charismatic Speaker to Demolitions.

I feel this idea ties in the deviancy and character effectiveness nicely.

The caste system could also neatly introduce a shady ruling caste if that feels appropiate for the setting.

Thanks for the discussion on this, Joachim. It looks like you have a good grasp of what I'm trying to do. I've been looking at a possible caste structure for a while now, ever since I began thinking of the project. A system such as you've outlined would help player characters fit into the setting nicely.

In line with this, and to tie it in with a Nar angle (or maybe Nar/Sim might be more appropriate), I was also thinking of the following ideas:

The anarchist PCs will be profiled as criminals, possessing the classic (a) Motive, (b) Means, and (c) Opportunity elements. Among these three, Motive bears the most weight and becomes a core currency of the game.

One way of looking at Motive is that it is that thing which compels a particular PC to go beyond the mould, and develop skills not condoned by the powers that be within The City. It directly relates to how different you are from the rest. More to the point, it relates to how criminally different you are.

Thus, I'm imagining character creation to go like so:

First, players choose their characters from among several City-approved character templates. This alludes to the caste structure you've mentioned, but included not just skills but resources as well such as political clout, networks of contacts in specific areas of the City or specific segments of society, etcetera.

Each player then begins crafting his character's Motive, a significant moment in their personal history that causes them to challenge the system. A certain value, say 5, should be assigned by the game to a PC Motive.

The players can then modify their City-approved templates by a number of steps directly proportional to their Motive value. As a campaign progresses, the players may go through experiences that allows Motive to grow in strength (eg: "They killed my father, and now they've taken Christine! The bastards!"). This again translates to "deviations" within their templates, until they become so criminally different from the normal citizen that they have to modulate their use of resources and special skills if they are to survive being hunted down.

Further, it is Motive that the Secret Police are really after. It represents that random thing that doesn't fit into their plans for society. So, one way of looking at the Secret Police, is that they're out to discover your Motive. If, through the Leads you leave behind, they finally figure it all out, it's game over. (I'm still thinking about how to work this into the design.)

The ongoing use of specific character resources, such as say tapping a network of allies, bring into play people significant to the player characters (eg: "My little Christine is running guns for the Cell."), placing these people at risk (eg: "I hope she gets that shipment to us without a hitch.") How these situations work out in-game decides not only strength of Motive but also the evolving "face" of Motive and whether it will lead you to nobility (ie: Samurai Jack, Che Guevarra) or villainy (ie: Mojo Jojo, Osama Bin Ladin) and so on.

(Hmm. This is starting to look a bit like The Riddle of Steel. I haven't actually played TROS, so I'm really just speculating here.)

Another thing, I've recently been trying to focus on not only Motive and its expression as deviations from the norm, but also something I'm beginning to call Cause, as in "Pledge yourself to The Cause, Men!" I hope to be able to represent the evolving face of the anarchist with this concept, as well as the integrity of the Cell (ie: how much each member hews to the tenets of the Cell as it evolves). Thus, I'm imagining not not only a gradual exploration of each player-character's nobility-villainy aspects, but also a gradual evolution of this aspect with regards to the Cell as a whole.

I apologize if the brief concept sketches above still look rather simplistic. I still really need to find the time in the next few months to get down and dirty with the whole project. However, the discussions have been very helpful and ever little bit gives me more fuel to use. Every iota of input is greatly appreciated. Thanks, all. I will post more as the project develops and I get more concrete with the core game ideas.

- W.

[Daredevil]

I'll be glad to offer input, if only to give you a firm push towards working on finishing this concept that very much sounds like something I'd like to run. Now, let me put on a little Rage Against the Machine and ...

I like the way your ideas try to make the game become an exploration (or even Exploration, in the Sim sense of the word) of rebellion, in the way that you first define what type of insurgent you actually are and also how your character fits in with the rest of the Cell and how much he embodies their great Cause. I find this a very interesting area to explore via play. You could become an ardent fanatic supporting your comrades or a withdrawn rebel who finds little contentment in the base acts of his Cell? Will the lonely thinker betray his comrades to the Secret Police or will he leave them be and ultimately go down his own lonely path of rebellion?

As for the visual look, ever since first reading about this and especially after hearing some of the references, I keep seeing these pages out of a European-style comic, ala Enki Bilal and Moebius.  

The anarchist PCs will be profiled as criminals, possessing the classic (a) Motive, (b) Means, and (c) Opportunity elements. Among these three, Motive bears the most weight and becomes a core currency of the game.

It would be very interesting to develop Opportunity into a sort of Kicker type system to provide a starting point and framework for a session. I think it would be most effective if it sort of sprung forth from either the character's Motive or possible his available Means.

On the social aspect of the Cell, there could be disagreement between members on which opportunity to invest into. The less your idea of using the Cell assets in some way appeals to the rest of the Cell, the less effectiveness you have available as fewer comrades will be helping you whole-heartedly.

Further, it is Motive that the Secret Police are really after. It represents that random thing that doesn't fit into their plans for society. So, one way of looking at the Secret Police, is that they're out to discover your Motive. If, through the Leads you leave behind, they finally figure it all out, it's game over. (I'm still thinking about how to work this into the design.)

Hmm. Why (do you think) the discovery of the character's motive would extinguish the character's rebellion? Some form of cover-up by the Secret Police or how?

In fact, I think I have some half-complete ideas for a mechanic that is very similar to this that I'll have to dig up a bit later and offer up for discussion.

- Joachim Buchert -

[W. Don]

As for the visual look, ever since first reading about this and especially after hearing some of the references, I keep seeing these pages out of a European-style comic, ala Enki Bilal and Moebius.

Actually, yeah! The comics and graphic novels of the sort you've mentioned certainly provide the same visual cues I'm imagining. With a Soviet or East German socialist-constructivist jive going. If the project ever pushes into actual publishing, I'm thinking the chapter headings ought to be done in Soviet-style fonts. And the front cover will be an overhead shot of a crowd of "citizens" packed into a subway car, and one of them (just off to the right and bottom near the shadows) is wearing a bowler hat, a trenchcoat, and a gasmask! Yeah! (Hey, I can dream can't I... Getting giddy, getting giddy ;o)

It would be very interesting to develop Opportunity into a sort of Kicker type system to provide a starting point and framework for a session. I think it would be most effective if it sort of sprung forth from either the character's Motive or possible his available Means.

One way I've been thinking about it is like so: "Opportunities" (note the plural) will be happening regularly in the game, preferrably through some author stance (even director stance) mechanic given to the players. The players set themselves for a caper or heist of their own devising, or at least are encouraged to protagonistically "hijack" the scenes framed by the GM. The game, as it's bubbling in my lab right now, looks like it requires a good deal of pro-active play, which stems from the "lightning flash" nature of the anarchist role. The Cell is always considered on the attack, as it were. All the City (or the "system") really does is wait until the anarchists make their move, before it begins hunting them down (ie: there are no Leads to follow when no crime occurs). So Opportunity is when Motive gets expressed through Means.

On the social aspect of the Cell, there could be disagreement between members on which opportunity to invest into. The less your idea of using the Cell assets in some way appeals to the rest of the Cell, the less effectiveness you have available as fewer comrades will be helping you whole-heartedly.

Definitely something I'm looking into. I'm still formulating ways to explore this on the drawing table. The situation seems to me to have lots of Nar potential, and rife with opportunities for players to explore the particular styles of criminal deviancy that interests them.

Hmm. Why (do you think) the discovery of the character's motive would extinguish the character's rebellion? Some form of cover-up by the Secret Police or how?

Actually, I was groping for a clear marker for "game over" with that one. That way, I was hoping that if players see the end in sight, it will be easier for them to pro-actively chase it (or avoid it so long as they keep the game moving). Choice of motive at character creation may foreshadow the ultimate end of a particular character. Thus, the player has a clear idea of the "personal issue" his character is trying to resolve via sedition, with that in mind he can play in a way that serves to fuel and ultimately resolve that issue.

From a Sim point-of-view, I admit this won't be realistic. Still, it does seem to give me some sort of nice little Nar package. I'm still on the fence where this is concerned (ie: Nar-Sim, Sim-Nar, Pure Sim, or just Nar... dang, I'm getting dizzy ;o).

Again, thanks for the interest and the discussions! It's all very helpful and much appreciated. I'll endeavor to keep an update as things develop.

[Mike Holmes]

With a Soviet or East German socialist-constructivist jive going. If the project ever pushes into actual publishing, I'm thinking the chapter headings ought to be done in Soviet-style fonts.

Heh, I'm seeing modernist Soviet style propaganda posters with mottos from Brazil: "We're all in it together!"

Mike

[Daniel Solis]

I would absolutely love a chance at doing the layout and design of the game if you decide to go with the constructivist look. That's one of my favorite design styles of all time.

[Emily Care]

This sounds great, WD.  Question: what happens to revolutionaries who get caught? Are they killed? Imprisoned? Branded? Re-programmed and used to catch other cell members?

The central narrativist question of the game seems to center on the divergent developmental path you've got going: the che/osama dichotomy.   The intra-cell conflict based on these decisions serves to highlight that basic question.

The players are rated on one or perhaps several scales of "fame" and "infamy". Since the actions of the PCs will place their allies and other significant people in the line of fire, the effects of their actions will eventually result in a tug between the "Che Guevarra" side or the "Osama" side of things.

Having multiple ratings makes it more complex than simply having a single rating cover "loss of decency" etc.  The increase of fame/infamy could influence who gets drawn to be in society with you as well--thugs gravitate towards stronger thugs, and law-abiding citizens will be more likely to help a Robin Hood figure.  Are the leads involved in the fame/infamy? Seems like you'd need some way for your identity to be known in order for your personality to have that kind of impact for the "cause".  Sounds like you might want to look at how other games such as Sorcerer foreground the premise via the mechanics.

Great stuff, I look forward to seeing more!

Regards,
Emily Care

ps I'm personally very happy you wrote this because I have an idea for a slave revolution game that is much more historical in nature, and historically revolutions are very, very difficult.  Now I can refer folks to your game if they want a that kind of experience, and I can be free to have mine be a more sim-oriented educational game that helps folks have the experience of what it's like to be enslaved. Thanks!

[Mike Holmes]

Re-programmed and used to catch other cell members?

The central narrativist question of the game seems to center on the divergent developmental path you've got going: the che/osama dichotomy. The intra-cell conflict based on these decisions serves to highlight that basic question.

That's brilliant, Em. Perhaps it could be engineered so that the players wouldn't always be sure if a character had gotten caught or not. Some PCs could be working for the other side, and the characters and even players wouldn't be aware. How's that for generating Paranoia? Essentially the players would feel the pressure of constantly worrying that those they were working with could turn them in at any time.

I'm seeing a potentially very Gamist game where players could actually win by causing an overthrow, but it would be something that would require extreme care to engineer over a lot of play. Losses, wherin all were captured would be common to make it a real challenge.

BTW, look at the game Zero for an example of characters who are hunted.

Mike

[W. Don]

Hiya,

I've tried to order all the recent replies along specific categories. Just so I can organise the discussion and my own responses. Apart from my replies, I've also added some new "issues", placing these at the end half of this post. In general, this post moves from the issues I'm not so focused on right now (tackled in the earlier portions), and builds up to the concerns I'm still trying to wrap my brain around at this stage (tackled in the latter portions).


MISC:

I'm personally very happy you wrote this because I have an idea for a slave revolution game that is much more historical in nature, and historically revolutions are very, very difficult. Now I can refer folks to your game if they want a that kind of experience, and I can be free to have mine be a more sim-oriented educational game that helps folks have the experience of what it's like to be enslaved. Thanks!

You're very welcome, Emily. Hopefully, I'll deserve more thanks if it ever reaches final published form. This might also be interesting for you: One of the reasons why I'm doing this project is my own country's revolutionary history and its experiences under a tyranical one-man dictatorship (in the 70s and early 80s). The whole Che/Osama dichotomy was prompted to me by my own nation's efforts and foibles at peaceful revolutions -- ie: "People Power", the last of which happened a scant three years ago here; I was there hoisting up the "Down with El Presidente!" banners -- so this project's got me involved in more ways than you can count. Har! ;o)


LOOK AND FEEL:

I would absolutely love a chance at doing the layout and design of the game if you decide to go with the constructivist look. That's one of my favorite design styles of all time.

Thanks you for the interest, Daniel. Much like you, I'm completely gaga over that whole modernist-constructivist-socialist look. I practically pee'd in my pants watching the introductory credits for the movie "Enemy At The Gates" -- that whole sequence was to kill for. I can't thank you enough for the offer. However, I'd probably be keeping the design work to myself if ever it gets to the publishing stage.

Recently, I've been thinking of formally calling it Thoughtkrime (with the "k" for "kewl", not to mention a mirrored K looks nifty in a Soviet-style font. Har! ;o) Also, I'm leaning toward working on the Narrativist portions of the system first so Thoughtcrime (or Thoughtkrime, I dunno yet) is the Nar part, and Iron City is the Setting/Sim part. There's some new stuff about this at the end part of this post for whoever wants to take a look.


GAMEPLAY:

This sounds great, WD. Question: what happens to revolutionaries who get caught? Are they killed? Imprisoned? Branded? Re-programmed and used to catch other cell members?

That's brilliant, Em. Perhaps it could be engineered so that the players wouldn't always be sure if a character had gotten caught or not. Some PCs could be working for the other side, and the characters and even players wouldn't be aware. How's that for generating Paranoia? Essentially the players would feel the pressure of constantly worrying that those they were working with could turn them in at any time.

Thanks for the above, Mike, Em. One of the central ideas I had in mind behind the whole Leads concept is that the players (or at the very least the characters) are to have little clue as to where the Leads turn up. That is, if the Leads become say bonus dice to be used against the characters, they have no idea in whose possession those Leads will be placed. It could be a lover, a close family member, or even one of the Cell's own.

I'm also thinking I should come up with mechanics that can be used for interrogation and brain-washing scenes (or instead of a general conflict resolution mechanic, maybe I can provide a subset of the rules for addressing this kind of scene). I'm imagining one way to look at brain-washing or re-programming vis-a-vis Motive/Means/Opportunity is that a character's Motive gets replaced or supplanted by the Secret Police's own.


NARRATIVIST ANGLE:

The central narrativist question of the game seems to center on the divergent developmental path you've got going: the che/osama dichotomy. The intra-cell conflict based on these decisions serves to highlight that basic question.

Having multiple ratings makes it more complex than simply having a single rating cover "loss of decency" etc. The increase of fame/infamy could influence who gets drawn to be in society with you as well--thugs gravitate towards stronger thugs, and law-abiding citizens will be more likely to help a Robin Hood figure. Are the leads involved in the fame/infamy? Seems like you'd need some way for your identity to be known in order for your personality to have that kind of impact for the "cause". Sounds like you might want to look at how other games such as Sorcerer foreground the premise via the mechanics.

Thanks for the advice. I'm assuming this "loss of decency" is reflected in the Humanity mechanic of Sorcerer, that element being where the Nar play of the game is at. I only have the apprentice version of Sorcerer right now, but I intend to go through it with a fine tooth comb.

About the Che/Osama dichotomy: You're right. That is indeed a central part of the Nar premise that's developing behind the game. As to how it might be played out by the system, I'm thinking more of a "slider" than two separate ratings. Each end of the spectrum representing the two extremes -- Hitler and Gandhi for example. Characters who fail to move one way or the other will tend to be less effective. The variance from the center of the spectrum might be used to indicate the strength of a particular character's Motive. Further, each of the two sides of the slider imply access to and the use of qualitatively different Means and Opportunities. (Dang, now methinks I have to look at Paladin.) Also, the more different the Cell members are from each other along this scale, the more likely it is for the Leads to actually show up within the Cell (ie: infiltration by the Secret Police becomes more likely the less the Cell members hew to a specific quality of sedition).

About Leads and Fame/Infamy: Yes. Those elements would naturally be related. I'm taking another look at how I'll be defining these -- whether to make them simply Sim elements or to involve them as part of the Nar premise. More buzzing in my head for the next couple of weeks, I think.


GAMIST vs. NARRATIVIST CONCERNS:

I'm seeing a potentially very Gamist game where players could actually win by causing an overthrow, but it would be something that would require extreme care to engineer over a lot of play. Losses, wherin all were captured would be common to make it a real challenge.

BTW, look at the game Zero for an example of characters who are hunted.

Thanks for that bit about Zero, Mike. This is the one by Archangel Entertainment? Sadly, their site no longer seems to exist, but I'm going through some reviews of it now.

That "overthrow as winning and thus end-of-game" is a natural expectation of the game, I'd think. Knowing this, I'm  wondering how to involve it in a Nar sort of way. What I wonder about is whether it's possible for a Nar system to be powered by what at first glace might be Gamist goals? I realise InSpectres could be such a game, as might be Sorcerer. Have there been any threads discussing this? (Maybe I should pose this question over at the GNS forum.)


NARRATIVIST vs. SIMULATIONIST CONCERNS:

The situation seems to me to have lots of Nar potential, and rife with opportunities for players to explore the particular styles of criminal deviancy that interests them... I was groping for a clear marker for "game over" with that one... from a Sim point-of-view, I admit this won't be realistic. Still, it does seem to give me some sort of nice little Nar package. I'm still on the fence where this is concerned (ie: Nar-Sim, Sim-Nar, Pure Sim, or just Nar... dang, I'm getting dizzy ;o)

I've been calling this game "Thoughtcrime" now instead of "Iron City" -- my effort to distance the Nar and Sim portions of the whole project. Right now I'm focusing on the Nar part, involving elements noted above. I'm going to try to distill the Nar core of the project, and lay them out first within the framework of an effective set of rules/mechanics. The Sim part (ie: funky furries, steam-spewing robots, etc.) will come later, I think, hopefully to fall into place as I develop the Nar side more.

I'm supposing that if I'm in the least bit successful at making a good Nar system for this, that it might be applied to other settings, not just the steampunk one I've initially outlined -- that is, any setting involving (a) rebellious anarchists, and (b) an oppressive totalitarian system. One of the setting ideas for possible Thoughtcrime application that I've recently come up with is (don't laugh now) kindergarten school. One where you have the teachers, administrators, school nurses, etc. to represent "the system" and a bunch of unruly (or even gifted) kids as the "anarchists" out to piss on the walls! That brown-nosing tattle-tale classmate of yours who eats all the glue can be the cell's mole! (PS: I'm involved in something like this personally as well since I'm a pre-school teacher. Har!)

At any rate, looks like I've got a whole bunch of Leads to follow now. And, damn you Forgites! If I hadn't found this cursed hell-hole it would have been a D20 thing and all so very simple! Thanks for putting this incessant, near-maddening buzz in my head. Y'all keep it coming now, ya hear! :o)

Cheers,

- W.

[komradebob2]

Hi all.

Hey, I really like the idea for your game. I'm new here, so bear with me if I use the jargon a bit wrong.

Anyway, someone mentioned the gamist goal of overthrowing the evil regime, and thus ending the game. I just like to point out ( is this going narrativist/sim'ist?) that what happens after a revolution can be just as interesting as the paranoid underpinnings of the fight against the Big Bad.
Consider the following:

The struggle for power in the new Regime:
-The purges of the early Soviet Union through the Stalinist era, and then the post-Stalinist reaction. Heck, those periods alone are worth mining for ideas, either directly or in a translated form.
-Although the Stalinist era is usually held up as the big example of revolution gone bad, consider the following: The political underpinnings of the Marshall Plan, The Irish Civil War that followed Partition and the Tan War, The Cultural Revolution in China, the after effects of the Cuban Revolution,  Post WW2 France and dealing with both the collaborationists and the leftists, etecetecetc.

Anyway, my point is this: I know that you haven't yet got the original game off the ground yet, but the overthrow of the Old Order almost never ends all the issues that the Revolution was originally about. More often than not, it leads to more chaos as new and old power groups struggle to reach some sort of functional equilibrium while still settling old scores.

Your general setting seems very well set up to have many, many adventure opportunities in any of the Three Play Styles _even_ in the event of the Regime being ousted.

Good Luck. I can't wait to see how things turn out.

PS- How horrific do you plan to make the setting? I used to play Paranoia and loved the setting. My group used to play it primarily for laughs. OTOH, I have seen people play it really dark and brooding...