Anyone know Chinese weaponry?

[Ben Lehman]

Hey--
I'm working on a pet setting for Riddle of Steel, which heavily features a China analouge.  And I have realized that my knowledge of Chinese weapons and fighting tactics (I'm more interested bread and butter techniques used by thugs, soldiers and mercenaries than complex Gong Fu mysticism.)  I'm not planning on rewriting most of the proficiencies, but for the purposes of statting out the weapons I am ignorant.

Anyone out there have some knowledge to share?

yrs--
--Ben

[Mike Holmes]

What time period? Not that China wasn't very stable, but if you could perhaps indicate a dynasty to narrow it down?

Mike

[Ben Lehman]

What time period? Not that China wasn't very stable, but if you could perhaps indicate a dynasty to narrow it down?

BL>  The setting is wildly ahistorical (draws on everything from Huang Di through to cyborgs), so it's really whatever is most interesting. :-)

Elaboration:
 The reason I am avoiding Gong Fu weapons and styles is that everyone knows China solely from martial arts movies.  I don't want this game to be about "My monkey fist can defeat your seven drunken tiger style."  If I did, I would be using Feng Shui and not Riddle of Steel.

 Will post a setting blurb at some point, which may give people more of an idea of what I'm looking for.

yrs--
--Ben

[Mike Holmes]

The setting is wildly ahistorical

So then why are you interested in the historical styles? Just as inspiration? I mean, one option you could use would just be to make up something that sounded cool for your world instead. Yanak Footman proficiency could be way cool.

Mike

[GreatWolf]

Here's an RPGnet thread on the same topic:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58604

Hope that this is helpful.

Seth

[Ben Lehman]

The setting is wildly ahistorical

So then why are you interested in the historical styles? Just as inspiration? I mean, one option you could use would just be to make up something that sounded cool for your world instead. Yanak Footman proficiency could be way cool.

Good question.
There are a couple of reasons, really...
The first is that I want this to be a fantasy version of China, much in the way that Mainlund is a fantasy version of Europe, though one could hardly call it anything but "ahistorical."  I want the setting to ring true as distinctly "Chinese" rather than just "random fantasy world inhabited by Asiatic people."
The second is that I don't feel that I have enough martial experience to design plausible weapon styles on my own.

But, also, I suppose saying "wildly ahistorical" was a bit of a cop-out.  The feeling I want is one of a grand empire that is beginning to decline.  So, let's say that the historical period is late Tang.

yrs--
--Ben

[Paganini]

Ben,

Have you seen Dragon Fist by Chris Pramas? Yes, it is a wuxia game, and yes, it does use a modified version of the old AD&D rules (actually, one of the few incarnations of the old AD&D rules that I actually like, but that's neither here nor there), but it has some very nice descriptions and illustrations of chinese weapons. It's available for free from the WotC website (at least, it was couple of months ago last time I looked).

I think you might be laboring under a bit of a misconception WRT to kung fu, though. Saying that you want to study Chinese weapons while avoiding kung fu is a bit like saying you want to study Japanese weaponry, excluding those used by the Samurai. There's not much left to study. Kung fu just means "hard work," or "skill." It's pretty much just a generic term for a Chinese martial art (as opposed to Japanese, Korean, Phillipino, etc.)

The weapons that you learn in "kung fu" are the personal and battlefield weapons of the day (the day being a millenium or two ;). Frex, my sifu teaches open-hand forms, staff-forms, a broadsword form (Chinese broadsword is a bit like a falchion - single edged, widening blade), straightsword, spear, and so on.

The characters in kung fu movies tend to be actual historical (or traditional) fighters converted to legend (paralelling our own King Arthur legends, for example). Sure the stories are mostly highly improbable, but the equipment is typically pretty close to the real thing.

[MrGeneHa]

Intriguing stuff.  Can we hear more details?

You want to include cyborgs.  Does this mean guns are included too?  AKMs and .44 magnums?  Is this a modern fantasy setting?  If so, now does someone with a monk's spade deal with a 900 rpm Uzi?  Can he dodge or parry bullets?  This would require some fiddling with the default TRoS system.

Or is this a "steampunk" historical fantasy, with anachronistic steam, diesel or electric cyborgs?  But no automatic firearms.

Or a technomancy setting, with magic mass produced into technology?

Or a low fantasy setting, in which case something like the orthodox TRoS magic system creates "cyborgs"?

Any of these could be intriguing, but they each favor different weapons.  A modern day setting would put a premium on concealable weapons, and armor would be a waste of time against guns.

[Eamon Voss]

Historical Chinese weapons are easy.  That is because they are the same as nearly everywhere else in the world:

1. Spears in wartime, staff in peace time.
2. Bows and light crossbows.
3. Single handed swords for use by horsemen, officers, or rich men.

That is what the majority of warriors used in China through out history.  Everything else was used by the eclectic champion types who we like to watch kung-fu movies about.

[Morfedel]

I could be wrong, but weren't katanas kept far, far sharper than their european equivalent?

I thought I had read somewhere once that there were men whose sole profession was to sharpen katanas, hour after hour, day after day, year after year, and that these katanas were so sharp they could shear off a man's arm with a lovetap.

At least, thats what I vaguely recall. Anyone know the truth or falsehood of this?

[Mike Holmes]

I could be wrong, but weren't katanas kept far, far sharper than their european equivalent?

This has all been discussed on other threads. And it typically leads to flames for no apparent reason. Further, this thread is about Chinese, not Japanese weapons. So I suggest looking at the older threads and sorting them out to see what one can find, and pray that it does not get discussed here.

What is definitely true is that in all cultures where metalworking was important to making weapons, those cultures did an excellent job of creating and maintaining weaponry. Enough so that it's probably not worth making an adjustment to your world in the name of "realism" to reflect superior qualities. If you want things to be different in your world, of course, go ahead. But almost nobody will complain if you just ignore this (and if they do, they're the kind of geeks that you don't really want to play with, IMO).

Mike

[Ben Lehman]

Have you seen Dragon Fist by Chris Pramas?
*snip*
I think you might be laboring under a bit of a misconception WRT to kung fu, though. Saying that you want to study Chinese weapons while avoiding kung fu is a bit like saying you want to study Japanese weaponry, excluding those used by the Samurai. There's not much left to study. Kung fu just means "hard work," or "skill." It's pretty much just a generic term for a Chinese martial art (as opposed to Japanese, Korean, Phillipino, etc.)

BL> I have read Dragon Fist and it is quite cool, but is not deeply suited to my purposes.
 You are right about the definitions of kung fu.  What I mean to say is that I do not want the potential players to see the game as "I get to have kewl kung fu powerz like in Bruce Lee!"  I want them to see it as "I get to romp around a steam-powered five-element China and rewrite ancient legends."

Intriguing stuff.  Can we hear more details?

BL> At some point, when I have the free time (I am presently in a 10-14 hour/day Chinese program), I will post a larger blurb.  Probably this weekend.

You want to include cyborgs.  Does this mean guns are included too?

BL>  Not as such.  The technological advancements are mostly non-military in nature (primitive steam-powered factories, hot air balloons, and trains.)  There will most likely be hand-held cannons of the historical sort.  It is possible that someone will show up with a more modern firearm, but that is explicitly an artifact, and doesn't need to make sense under the general system.

As far as weapons go, it really is just going to largely be standard melee stuff (swords, polearms, etc.)  I am curious what fighting styles were common, historically.

Or is this a "steampunk" historical fantasy, with anachronistic steam, diesel or electric cyborgs?  But no automatic firearms.

Or a technomancy setting, with magic mass produced into technology?

Or a low fantasy setting, in which case something like the orthodox TRoS magic system creates "cyborgs"?

BL>  All of the above, in a way (although my magic system is not quite orthodox.)  Essentially, the technology IS the secret essence of the Metal element.  It could be seen as magic, or just a high-tech group that keeps its knowledge exclusive to a special noble caste.  More forthcoming in a general setting post.

Armor was mentioned.  Metal armor was not widely used by the Chinese, correct?  What sorts of armor might be used, and what do people think that the stats ought to be?

The next person to mention Katanas on this thread will be banished to that foul island of Eastern Barbarians.  ;-)  (no offence intended, just a slight ribbing.)

yrs--
--Ben

edit: added "no offence" to last comment and fixed some quotes.

[Bankuei]

Hi guys,

Ancient Chinese Weapons - A martial artist's guide, by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

Ignor the martial artist's part, yeah, you'll get weird kung fu weaposns but you'll also get a LOT of real, practical weapons, and info on them all.  This book is also filled with illustrations, so you can just pull it out and point to what is being used.

It's full of very practical information regarding the weapons and their usage:

-Heavy weapons tend to cut through armor better, lighter weapons don't tire you out as fast.  Figuring out a balance is vital in long battles.

-Those crazy red tufts near the tops of spears are designed to absorb blood, so your handle doesn't get all slippery

- The Kwan-dao(that big ole halberd thingy) was designed to take out legs of horses.  Shorter versions were used by villages and bandits to hop out on narrow pathways in the mountains and take out horses.

There's a ton of other useful bits of info, but I consider it one of my favorite source books for info on weapons.

Chris

[Luke]

Chris is right. Research is paramount!

Have you read Romance of the Three Kingdoms? If not, stop what you are doing, put down Star Wars Galaxies, and indulge your deep asia-ophile tastes. It is quintessentially Chinese. Kind of the Five Rings of the Middle Kingdom,except 10x times as long. If you have read it, remember that is it also an "ahistorical" fantasy. It just happens to be written for the Chinese by the Chinese.

Other than that, Osprey has fantastic books on weapons, armor, soldiers and campaigns. Look through their website, http://www.ospreypublishing.com/, it has a far more complete catalog than anything you'll find in a store.

-Luke

[Ben Lehman]

Have you read Romance of the Three Kingdoms?

BL>  Not yet.  Presently reading The Journey West and have already read more Chinese mystical texts than you can shake a stick at.  R3K is next on my list.

yrs--
--Ben