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[Mike Holmes]

In response to a question about what could fill the racial pref list holes...

And I, for one, would LOVE to see those two gaping holes filled. They just bug the you-know-what out of me! :)

Hm. What about one being like "During the Day and Night of the star you were born under, you receive a +1 die to all checks" and a second for during like full moon, new moon, etc?

One occuring once a year, the other once a month, basically? (of course with 6 moons it would be a different story, but you see where I'm driving at).

Also, maybe just a +1 per year is too weak. But I'm just trying to trigger a conversation here.

Consider the conversation started.

And it is, too weak. For a bump up on the Gifts/Flaws list, you can get better and more frequently useful advantages. In fact, such an ability would just be on that list. The Racial ones ought to have something to do with either inborn magical ability, or other racial abilities.

I'd really like to see the latter. I mean, what about playing a Gol, perhaps? What would that give you? Would it be worth a higher pref slot than the human level? Other creatures? I don't see playing a Dragon as any more powerful than a Sorcerer.

Thoughts?

Mike

[Ben Lehman]

When working out race priorities for my China setting, I stumbled upon an interesting idea to fill the D race priority.  This is the Exemplar.

Exemplars are humans, they are merely extraordinary individuals of their nationality.  A Welsh Exemplar would be a crack shot with a bow -- even if he had never picked one up before.  A Odean exemplar would be able to walk through blizzards in light clothes, and be tough as a bear.  A Mongol exemplar could ride like the wind and gather armies in a matter of months.  They are simply the best that their nation has to offer.

Exemplars are a D racial choice, and double all bonuses associated with their nationality.

What do you all think?  I'm thinking about tripling the bonuses and making them a C choice (so that they are cooler but rarer.)  Conceivably, there could be two levels -- Exemplars and Paragons, say.  Any other riffs on this concept?

yrs--
--Ben

[Mike Holmes]

Hmm. Double all positive and negatives? Or just the positives?

One thing that I've always hated about bonuses like this is that they result in all PCs of that sort having those stats maxed out. I mean, what use is it to have a +2 ST, and only take a 3 for a total of 5? I mean basically given that you still have a limited number of points to spend, and the penalties balance out with the advantages pointwise, all these really do is raise or lower the maximum for the two stats affected. Presumably a stat mod represents a trend from the norm of other races. That is, if 4 ST is average for one group, then a 5 ST is average for the group with a +1 racial mod. But PCs will invariably be the max allowable to take advantage of the usefulness of that's provided (and then this subsequently leads to all characters from one country being the same sorts as the others from the same place following the high stat).

Just bugs me. Call it the "23 STR Dwarf Syndrome" from the predictable strength of all Fantasy Hero dwarves.

How about some bonuses to skills instead? Basically an extra little skill package that you can't get any other way.

Mike

[Ben Lehman]

Hmm. Double all positive and negatives? Or just the positives?

BL>  Only double the positives.  I was considering having an F priority (the "wretch") that doubles the negatives.

One thing that I've always hated about bonuses like this is that they result in all PCs of that sort having those stats maxed out. I mean, what use is it to have a +2 ST, and only take a 3 for a total of 5? I mean basically given that you still have a limited number of points to spend, and the penalties balance out with the advantages pointwise, all these really do is raise or lower the maximum for the two stats affected. Presumably a stat mod represents a trend from the norm of other races. That is, if 4 ST is average for one group, then a 5 ST is average for the group with a +1 racial mod. But PCs will invariably be the max allowable to take advantage of the usefulness of that's provided (and then this subsequently leads to all characters from one country being the same sorts as the others from the same place following the high stat).
Just bugs me. Call it the "23 STR Dwarf Syndrome" from the predictable strength of all Fantasy Hero dwarves.

BL>  This is true.  I don't actually have a problem with Exemplars maxing out their appropriate stats -- they are Exemplars, that's sort of their deal.  I was also thinking of giving them a certain bonus (say, +2 dice) to things that make sense for them to do, but that their race does not provide a bonus for (cold survival for Odean, say.)

How about some bonuses to skills instead? Basically an extra little skill package that you can't get any other way.

BL>  This is a good idea.  What I will probably end up doing for the setting is this -- I will make a little exemplar "package" for each nationality.  This package will be:
1 or 2 minor special abilities (cold survival, horseback skill, base SA bonus, etc.)
3-5 bonus skills
2-6 points of attribute adjustments

Now, as I have no intention of playing in Weyrth, I don't have a strong desire to write this up for those cultures already in the RoS book.  But it is an idea.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  I think that Ghol are priority C, Dragons are A (remember that rank reflects rarity, not just power.)

[Ashren Va'Hale]

you could do exemplar level 1 to fill the first hole in which the Seneschal dictates a special ability that fits the characters nationality and background and then level 2 to fill the other hole where the player gets teh same as level one plus a bonus of some sort that likewise fits teh highest attribute: tough guy immune to cold, strong guy deals an extra die of damage, the nimble guy has an extra die when dodging etc...

[Morfedel]

I had an idea or two:

Idea #1: Raise humans as they stand to E. Create a new Wretched which doubles negatives, at F, and  Gifted or High Men that double the positives, at D.

Idea #2: At priority E, you become known as Gifted. Take your highest bonus, and apply it also to a stat that is randomly determined. There are 10 stats, so roll a 10 sider. Or, gain any one skill at your best SKILL score that you possess.  Or select a single weapon proficiency, and gain a bonus to it equal to your best stat bonus.

At Priority D, you become known as Legendary. Your best stat becomes legendary, and you are occasionally capable of feats involving that attribute, albeit with effort. You may, at any time, choose to add as many additional dice to that attribute as you wish, but no more than doubling it, for a single feat. After that feat is attempted, however, you gain a number of fatigue points automatically equal to the dice you applied:

Example 1: Herodinus, known throughout the land to be a mountain of sheer muscle, must lift a boulder that has fallen on his friend when an avalanche fell, during their travels through the mountains. He doubles his strength, and attempts to lift the boulder. He has a 7 strength, so he rolls 14 dice, plus any SAs that might apply. Once he succeeds - or fails - in the attempt, he gains 7 dice to fatigue.

Example 2: General Talonis, a well known strategician, with a sharp mind, is known for his legendary Wits. Gazing across his map of the enemy, he sees no weaknesses in the enemy line, and he is outnumbered and in trouble. He spends all night pouring over the maps and intelligence he has, looking for a weakness. He has a Wits of 6, and chooses to double it. He rolls his Wits/Strategy, and in the early dawn, finds the solution he needs... although he will ride into battle, exhausted from his lack of sleep.

Or, instead, Legendary in a Skill: select a single skill; it becomes equal to your best skill you possess, plus an additional -2.

Or reduce the CP costs of a single combat proficiency by 1 and all TNs by 1.


Idea 3:

Priority E: Minor Gift. One of your attributes, skills, proficiencies, or other has some unusual, very minor supernatural gift attached to it. Perhaps you can see in the dark, or can feel the crawl of the presence of the supernatural around you.

Priority D: Major Gift. You have some major, if very selective, gift. Perhaps, if someone meets your gaze, and you peer into their eyes, you can hypnotize them, or perhaps you get weak inklings of the future.

-----------------------

I realize none of these might be any good, but I'm just brainstorming to inspire several lines of consideration and discussion. Feel free to rip these apart, as I gave them about 30 seconds thought and I'm not even close to being married to them. :)

[Nick the Nevermet]

I have 1 concern.  The first is locking everything into a set pattern.  Let's say we add 5 new things to the racial priority list.  Do all 5 exist everywhere?  Does every culture in the setting have its own exemplars?  Does every country assign the same meanings to astrological signs?

Dealing with this doesn't make things easier, but I think it's important.  If we're not careful, we could either undercut TROS' focus on diverse beliefs, or create a complex web of exceptions and particularities.

[Nick the Nevermet]

A Good example of what I mean I think would be the exemplar talked about above.  IMHO, the exemplar works best when there is a very strong identity.  Stahl, Xanarium, and Fahal come to mind as places with VERY clear ideas on what the 'ideal man' is.  I doubt that Taveruun would have such a man, as their is not a clear concept of what the ideal would be.

[Lance D. Allen]

How about Oustenreich? What's twice zero?

[Nick the Nevermet]

If one thinks that Oustenreich has some kind of strong cultural identity, then the answer would be they get increased knowledge on folklore and the forest.

If one doesn't think so, then, well, back to my post above.

[Jake Norwood]

Actually, I'd say that in the less "exceptional" countries is where the most exceptional Exemplars would be born. Not someone who embodies what the country is, but rather what it needs to become.

Jake

[Nick the Nevermet]

Actually, I'd say that in the less "exceptional" countries is where the most exceptional Exemplars would be born. Not someone who embodies what the country is, but rather what it needs to become.

That would make a lot of sense, but it is a very different kind of sense than what James suggested.  His original notion of an "exemplar" was of a paragon of what is best in a society.  This type of character has a strong element of the status quo in him.  At most, he fights to promote the pre-established Good.  He would be fighting for Truth, Justice, and the Xanarian Way (or whatever).  He would fight against corruption, and promote the ideal.  He is a romantic hero, a good man fighting for a basically good society against evil changes.  He tries to make the center hold.

The character who will change the country into something new is a revolutionary and dynamic hero.  In other words, Arthur is not an exemplar, but Percival, Bors, and Galahad are.  King Arthur, Xanar, Paul Atreides... these guys are not the embodiment of an order, they create an order in their image.

In my opinion, there is a place for Exemplars (or whatever you'd like to call them) in places that have very institutionalized beliefs.  The Roman general, the Arthurian knight, the Welsh bowman, etc.  

I agree with Jake's assessment of the kind of exemplar he describes: they would be common in little countries, like Oustenreich, Dardenet, etc.  However, they're qualitatively different than what James is talking about.

I suspect that this thread is going to make me dizzy.  That isn't an attack on anyone, it's just that this thread is about what are appropriate 'little magics' for characters to have.  Also, as much as this is all brainstorming for S&F, we need to keep in mind that the normal TROS hero should be more or less human.  If there is one 'mundane' PC in a basic TROS game, I think too many racial preferences have been given or made too attractive.

[Lxndr]

Morfedel:  Someone is listening to you.  :)

I like the Gifted/Legendary split.  However, I'm wary of anything with a random roll.  I don't want to be Gifted in a stat that's rolled randomly.  I'm creating this character for my own vision; rolling a die isn't a happy way to accomplish that.

I guess I should say "I like how you've made Legendary work, but I'd still like to see something different for Gifted."

[Morfedel]

Sure. I hadnt even given it much thought, frankly; as I said, I was brainstorming. If it ends up spinning off something else, great!

[Lxndr]

(it's late, so forgive me if I don't make this as clear as I could)

While talking with Ben Lehman in the Indie Netgaming OOC chatroom tonight, we came up with the following.  Please let us know what you think.  We (or at least I) hope this could be a suitable generic template from which one could deviate, yet still helps fill the open slots.  Do note that this slightly increases the available magic of the setting, but I don't think it would do so too much.

I'd like to give thanks to Morfedel, your brainstorming DID help with this, at least on my end.  Heck, your brainstorming was enough to change me from "lurker" to "poster" in the tRoS forum.  You might regret that later.  :)

Ben wanted the F human to be worse than normal, a shaft like all the other Fs are a shaft.  I liked the idea of making things different, but I also wanted to keep the Race column as a "safe space" for putting an F (which keeps non-magical humans common).  So I wanted to keep it safe, but still figured I could encourage people to try for the D and E slots.  Here's what I came up with:

A Gifted Siehe
B Gifted halfling or human
C Ungifted halfling/legendary human*
D Exceptional human*
E Normal human*
F Bland human*

Now to explain the asterisks:

A Bland Human is a tabula rasa.  He has no cultural bonuses, and also should probably suffer from a reduction in starting SAs, but how many remains in question.  Or perhaps only a reduction of SAs, I'm not too sure yet.  In fact, as I type this, I'm more sure it should ONLY be a "less starting SA points" penalty, and nothing else.

A Normal Human isn't, really, but we all knew that.  He gets normal starting SAs.  In the earlier idea, he had the choice between cultural bonuses OR a lesser knack.  Knacks will be described later.  If the Bland Human has cultural bonuses, so does this guy, he gets no choice.

A Exceptional Human gets cultural bonuses AND a lesser knack (if the "no cultural bonuses" option for bland human, above, is used, then he has a choice between those two things OR taking a greater knack).

A Legendary Human has cultural bonuses and a greater knack.  Even if the no cultural bonuses option is used.  This one's simple as pie.

Knacks

A character with a knack gets a sorcery pool.  However, this can only be used for one single effect (lesser knack) or three effects (greater knack).  Using a knack can cause you to suddenly age, or whatever penalty for sorcery you have decided to use.  This is effectively a lesser form of sorcery, so the penalties should be similar.  As Ben put it, "the flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long," a saying I love, and seems to be in effect here.

What is the knack?  What is the effect you get?  That's up to you, and to some extent your setting.  The stat-pushing of Morfedel's "Legendary" could be a knack, as could being better at a skill or in combat.  Perhaps each nationality has a knack, or set of knacks, that are appropriate for it (if I knew Weyerth better I'd suggest a list).  Perhaps you want a couple knacks per element, or want to relate them to vagaries somehow, or perhaps astrological signs.  Perhaps you'll even let the player choose, or base it on their SAs (and have them change over time).  It's all up to you.

In Conclusion

I hope this is suitably generic enough that it can be accepted.  I don't know the game well enough to flesh out the mechanics, but at least this is another option, another way to look at it.  I'm less enamored of the "no cultural bonuses" part of my suggestion to ben, but am leaving it in for completeness.

And now, to bed!  Goodnight.  :)