help with magic?

[madelf]

A couple important points I'd like to make, before I go any further...

1)This is a game. A fantasy game. It needs no more basis on the actual historical interrelationships of science, magic and religion than I care to give it.
2)Trying to apply real-world historical or religious viewpoints to a fantasy world is an exercise in futility. It is not our world. Things don't have to have developed along the same lines that they did in our world, because the world itself is different.

I can state factually that you are very, very mistaken in your assessments -- you are, in fact, 180 degrees off the mark.

I have to respectfully disagree. I am not a pagan priest, or a student of ancient religions, but I have read enough to indicate quite clearly to me that many pagan gods even had different aspects within the same entity that would be conflicting by modern standards of morality. And really whether that is accurate isn't really an issue, as I am not attempting to recreate a realistic historical setting.

Society "creates" religion to reinforce and uphold its social mores and concepts of right and wrong -- or vice versa, religion creates a foundation for society based on its social mores and customs.

I agree that in the world we know, societies create religions. However, in a fantasy world, where gods "walk the earth" and are not the direct result of human influence, this goes completely out the window. In a fantasy world, it is possible that the gods created religion, and the people follow it because the gods want them to. The rules are changed.

As you can see, the two are so interwoven, they are functionally inseperable, especially when discussing pre-modern civilizations (which relied on the temple and priests as the focal-point around which their entire society moved).

Again this only applies to the historical real world. In a fictional setting this can apply or not as the author sees fit. And even if I were trying to be accurate, I'm relatively certain that the entire society of the 19th century did not revolve around the temple and priests.

Polytheistic pagan religions enforce morality as much as monotheistic religions do, and have done so throughout time: the religious underpinings and beliefs of a society create a map of that culture and its moral beliefs, its accepted behaviors, and its views of the world and its workings. Pagan religions are thus equally as "obsessed with morality" -- that is, with seperating right action and wrong action, with ensuring correct social order is kept -- as are the monotheistic religions you reference.

I will bow to your greater knowledge in this area, and accept that this is true. It is still completely irrelevant.

I suggest you examine the ancient Chinese religion, Egyptian religion, and Norse religion to start with. I'm not talking about books of myths about the gods of those cultures; I'm talking about actually studying the religion itself, which resemble the myths about as much as real-life in the middle ages resembles fairy tales. The point, of course, being that the myths, like the fairy tale, are metaphors, not necessarily representative of real beliefs or social behaviors, actions, or events.

No offense, but I have a little too much on my plate right now to do exhaustive research of ancient religions for a game which is not intended to accurately reflect any ancient religion of our world.
I do grant that you have a very good point here, and I may just do some more in depth research when I have more time. I'd be interested in seeing the differences between the myth and the religion. Can you reccomend a good starting source? (Preferably for the celtic religion, as that would be most useful for my next project)

For example, there is a lengthy chapter in the Poetic Edda with verses describing the path to wisdom, spoken by Odin. The beliefs reflected therein were immediately relevant to worshippers of Thor, Freyr, Odin, and any other Norse deity you care to name becuase they embodied the acceptable and correct behaviors of the Norse culture.

This goes back to your point of society creating religion. The dieties seemed right for the Norse, because they invented them for all intents and purposes. Things might have gone a little differently if Thor, Freyr, and Odin came down in person and started kicking ass until people fell in line.

Before I could answer to this, I would need to know if you were talking about a fantasy pantheon of gods and spirits, or a real pantheon of the same. Fantasy pantheons are largely fantastical crocks bearing no resemblance to any actual, real-world religion(s) or god(s) that does or ever has existed, even if and when they borrow names and mythologies.

I am talking about a fantasy pantheon of gods which is a largely fantastical crock bearing little resemblance to the actual real-world religion from which I have borrowed names and mythologies.
Well, actually I was talking about magic, but since it came up...

Unfortunately, much of what you're stating here seems to come from "gamebook knowledge" of how paganism or polytheistic societies operate(d) and behave(d), and gamebook knowledge is sorely lacking any realistic basis upon which to form opinions.

Actually nothing I'm stating here comes from game book knowledge. It comes from a casual aquaintence with mythology and a bit of light research. But, you really want to know why my concept sounds like a game book religion? I'm writing a game book.

I'm sorry to harp on so long about it, but this is a serious design flaw in most games, and a serious, gaping hole in the understanding of most Western-educated authors (game and otherwise); and hence why John's point about magic being tied up in religion in ancient times stands: even in the oldest religions, the priests were always the carriers of magical knowledge and knowledge in general.

Are you sure this is a design flaw, and not a concious decision made in the effort to keep an enjoyable fantasy game from being an historical treatise on ancient religions?
And why do people keep talking about ancient times and oldest religions?
The time period of my game corresponds to only about 150 years ago.

For example, shamanism is the oldest form of religion on our world, and clearly, the shaman is the individual gifted with supernatural, magical powers. The same goes for any magical society of recent lineage (such as the Golden Dawn) you care to examine: following magical history and development, you find it steeped in nothing other than religious lore.

Sorry, but this (as realistic as it may be) violates the basic premise of the magic system I am developing for my game. It cannot be tied up in religion.

Throughout history, magic is never considered an arcane technology or science -- though study and examination are certainly part and parcel of it, as with science, the fundamentals are supernatural and religious in nature. Thus, like society, a society's magic is inseperable from its religion

No.  It is not inseperable. In our history, it was not seperated. That does not mean that in a fictional setting it cannot be.

This is a great deal to consider in regards to your game.

As interesting as this is, and as usefull as it would be if I were doing a more realistic real-world setting with working magic type of game, this has absolutely nothing whatsover to do with my game.

You have to understand (well I guess you don't really have to, but it would be nice) that I don't really want this game to accurately reflect the real world. That is not my intent. All of the points brought up, with all the historical references, regarding the relationships between society, religion, and magic are all very interesting. It's almost enough to make me want to design a realistic game setting in order to use all of these ideas.
Really, this stuff is great. It's just not appropriate.
You're trying to place accurate and historical societal/religious judgements onto a world where those things simply don't belong.
You're trying to create a fantasy world that is very much like our world, except that all the un-scientific beliefs are true. I enjoy fiction of that type, and I would probably enjoy a game of that type. But that's not what this current project is about. This is about a world that is different than ours.

[taalyn]

As another pagan priest, I just want to say that not all of Raven's arguments hold up - defining morality, social mores, and such like can be very difficult, and a very tricky matter. It's a matter of perception. I'm not saying you're wrong, Raven, just that it gets a lot more complicated than you suggest.

That said, I also agree with Mad Elf. It's a game. Anything can go, and it doesn't have to reflect this reality in any way.

Mad Elf - if you want Celtic, a good basic myth to start with is the Mabingion, the largest part of the Welsh pagan tradition. It's a good start because it's fairly short, and because it shows influnece from the Norse and the Irish also. From there, moving into Irish myth, the best representation of Celtic myth, but also the most complex, becomes a little easier.

Aidan

[permacultureguerilla]

I created a separate thread relating to this, regarding paganism, right here.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7304

I'd say that's a perfect place to let fur fly and be really frank. However . . .

I have new questions about your game.

I had forgotten some things you had already addressed, when I last posted. I believe this is now clear: Magic here is perfectly acceptable, a rational usage, although not understood.

Okay. This post is a strict debate on how people in your world might address it, and again it lacks anything to do with your system. If that's what you need to get at then perhaps skip this for another time and we'll stick to mechanics.

1) Magic and pollution. If people have discovered effects of pollution and other subtle global effects: People might be realizing that whatever you do, if you don't understand it, it might not be good to do it.

So therefore, you could even get rallies (I know it's silly, but you have to wonder if it'd happen). People wanting laws restricting magic until further studied. Maybe theories have developed to say that magic depletes the manna in the universe . . . IN FACT!

If you'd really like to get some science issue, I'd love to mention: QUINTESCENCE!

Those who play Mage: The Ascension automatically know of this. But did you know it is an actual term used in atrophysics? I have a magazine article which discusses it in detail. I can find it, OCR and post it if you want me to.

Quintescence is derived from the fifth element (Latin: "quinta"). The only element that holds things up rather than binds things together. -Repels- instead of compelling. I know it's far from magic, but really it adds a nice touch to make this a real scientiffic issue (what the hell. It'll educate your gamers).

So words like Manna / Quintescence. Some might feel that it's having adverse effects on the universe. Usually, anything unnatural is upsetting to the way nature has righted itself. If Magic only came with the human species, it's much like the concept of mass-war and pollution.

2) Magic would sooner or later become extremely political. You need different organizations of different mages. They probably accompany different suits. It all depends precisely how difficult and wavering magic ability can be. If a person says: "We're only hiring you on this base if you can repeatedly cast this spell at all times."

3) Magic as an industry. This becomes a problem. Again on the X-men thing. I've often asked myself this . . .

Wouldn't someone like cyclops serve more purpose in a boiling plant than in crime fighting? I mean if you think about this: Just leaving his eyes open, standing in front of a huge water vat all day long, how much water could he boil for free so a lot of people can have warm homes? :) :) No, this is serious. If you're going to make all sorts of incredible super powers, you have to ask yourself if they actually end up being appropriate for incredibly mundane jobs.

All I can think of for now. Hopefully this at least progresses your game development.

[John Kim]

"Magic," if found to have its own energy "signature" or its own system beyond our own universe, then "Magic" is a new science. You have astrophysics, you have quantum phyics, you have magic. Because madelf is not suggesting it as a science per se, it's not understood. It's a discovery. It's just a few "tricks" people know but no one can -engineer- magic.

Example: People knew of the seed well before hardly any other technology. But did they understand the seed? Even genetic engineers are not fully aware of how the cell works to produce the plant, although they can now engineer them according to the pattern that nature has given general life.
...
I suppose this society, at the very least, has government agencies trying to research magick, because they'll be damned if their country loses a war for their own ignorance. I can't see a very powerful mage as anything other than a target for test subjects, or even a labrat / celebrity.  

I think it depends partly on the history of magic.  If magic is a sudden new phenomenon, where people are mysteriously being born with magic power -- then I would tentatively agree.  The people previously in power would be threatened by it, and would try to keep the magicians as subjects rather than active directors and researchers.  

However, if magic has been around for a long time, then I would think that the magicians would be in the ranks of power -- particularly if magic is militarily useful.  Some people draw parallels to witch hunts in our history, but I think that is misguided.  Witch hunts were against people who were generally weak and vulnerable.  People with true power will tend to be the persecutors rather than the reverse.  

madelf's world is fairly advanced technologically (roughly Victorian), but depending on how magic works it could seem fairly different from real-world technology.   As an example, hand-to-hand fighting (i.e. martial arts) today remains more of a craft and an art rather than a science.  That is, if magic inherently is internal to the caster, then it is difficult to approach scientifically.  This is partly why medicine and psychology lagged behind, say, chemistry and physics -- it is difficult to arrange controlled, repeatable conditions with human subjects.  This could also be true if magic involves interaction with intelligent beings: fairies, spirits, demons, etc.  Note that sociology and political science remain significantly less "technological" in feel from, say, physics.

[madelf]

Mad Elf - if you want Celtic, a good basic myth to start with is the Mabingion, the largest part of the Welsh pagan tradition. It's a good start because it's fairly short, and because it shows influnece from the Norse and the Irish also. From there, moving into Irish myth, the best representation of Celtic myth, but also the most complex, becomes a little easier.

Thanks, I'll check into that when I get a chance.

I created a separate thread relating to this, regarding paganism, right here.

That was probably a good idea. While I really don't mind this thread being "hi-jacked" for a religious history debate, it might work better to conduct something like that away from the game discussion simply for the sake of clarity.

Magic here is perfectly acceptable, a rational usage, although not understood.

Well, you could even say it's understood, up to a point. It's just not an exact science. It sould be said that magic more resembles an art than a science. That might get the idea across better.

If that's what you need to get at then perhaps skip this for another time and we'll stick to mechanics

. The mechanic itself is coming together. I think that part is pretty well figured out now, but I don't mind discussing magic's possible influence on the gameworld.

Magic and pollution. If people have discovered effects of pollution and other subtle global effects: People might be realizing that whatever you do, if you don't understand it, it might not be good to do it.

The idea of magical pollution is an interesting concept, but it's one that I think might escape the 19th century mind. Although the victorian era is often romanticized as a wonderful time, it really wasn't. It was an age of excess. Pollution in 19th century cities was worse by many orders of magnitude than what we have today.
Everything burned coal to the point that the air wasn't fit to breathe. I've read that when one went out in London, you didn't wear white as it would come back gray. The pleasant sounding "London fog" was actually smog. When it was severe it was sometimes so thick that lamps were lit inside even during the day, as it was too dark to see. It burned the lungs and eyes and caused dizzyness on a regular basis. Supposedly in one very bad week in 1873, 700 people above the avergage for the period died, and cattle at an exhibition suffocated to death. Industry never even slowed down. Garbage accumulated in the streets along with manure from horse drawn conveyances. Raw sewage was dumped into the Thames at the rate of 278,000 tons per day, along with all manner of pollutants from the factories along the river, likely causing the cholera epidemics that somtimes swept the city.
Pollution has never been worse than it was in the 19th century, and apparently no one understood the dangers.
I can't imagine that magic would be any different.
Certainly this attitude, the same as religious factors, could be assumed to be different in the game, but I don't think that's really needed.

Usually, anything unnatural is upsetting to the way nature has righted itself. If Magic only came with the human species, it's much like the concept of mass-war and pollution.

Actually I misrepresented myself, magic does not need a human element per se, only a sentient one. Mankind is not the only creature with access to magic.
Getting back to the natural vs supernatural argument, if it's assumed that magic in this fictional world is as natural as any of the other fantasical elements, then it wouldn't follow that magic is upsetting the natural order. If misused it could (like any other resource) have detrimental effects to mankind and society and the environment, but not (I think) to the point that nature could not right itself. An idea that occurs to me in thinking on this is that if magic is pervasive in nature, then nature might even be able to fight back. That could prove interesting. It might be the only thing that would make mankind take notice.

Magic would sooner or later become extremely political.

No more so than technology I would think.

You need different organizations of different mages. They probably accompany different suits.

I can see where different organizations might develop, but I don't know that in general the would be a huge factor.

It all depends precisely how difficult and wavering magic ability can be. If a person says: "We're only hiring you on this base if you can repeatedly cast this spell at all times."

Yes, like any other skill, you are more likely to get hired if you are more skilled. A highly skilled practitioner would have a better chance of consitent results, though there is always some randomness involved.

3) Magic as an industry. This becomes a problem. Again on the X-men thing. I've often asked myself this . . .

Wouldn't someone like cyclops serve more purpose in a boiling plant than in crime fighting? I mean if you think about this: Just leaving his eyes open, standing in front of a huge water vat all day long, how much water could he boil for free so a lot of people can have warm homes? :) :) No, this is serious. If you're going to make all sorts of incredible super powers, you have to ask yourself if they actually end up being appropriate for incredibly mundane jobs.

The limitations on the amount of magical energy that a living being can withstand would prevent this from being feasible. A steam engine can run all day and night powering machinery, but a mage cannot channel magical energy continuously for long periods without seriously hurting or killing himself. The limits and reliability issues of using magic would be the only reason technology would have developed at all.

As an aside, Cyclop's power is always portrayed as having a destructive effect, not a heat producing one. So his power would not heat the water in the vat, it would simply blast the vat into scrap metal and flood the boiler plant. This doesn't invalidate your point of course, but I couldn't resist.
:)

[greyorm]

quite clearly to me that many pagan gods even had different aspects within the same entity that would be conflicting by modern standards of morality.

This is a discussion that more correctly belongs on another board entirely, or in private messages, so that's where I'll leave it given your following statement about the real-world's development being irrelevant to the game world.

And really whether that is accurate isn't really an issue, as I am not attempting to recreate a realistic historical setting.

That's all I really need to know, then. Discussion closed.

Heads up, though, when you use "what happens in the real world" in responses (as with the paganism & morality issue), other folks in the discussion get the idea that you're trying to model reality since your arguments are about how the real world works, hence why I brought all this up.

As it isn't useful to you, since we aren't discussing a real-world model, or anything based on real-world models, feel free to ignore it. The subject can be dismissed, and the discussion moved on to something else, or ended.

I'm not saying you're wrong, Raven, just that it gets a lot more complicated than you suggest.

You're right, Aidan. But complexity requires length, and I'd gone on way too long about it on the thread already.

[madelf]

This is a discussion that more correctly belongs on another board entirely, or in private messages, so that's where I'll leave it given your following statement about the real-world's development being irrelevant to the game world.

I'm fine with that. Perhaps we can discuss it further elsewhere.

Heads up, though, when you use "what happens in the real world" in responses (as with the paganism & morality issue), other folks in the discussion get the idea that you're trying to model reality since your arguments are about how the real world works, hence why I brought all this up.

I see your point. I'm afraid I got a bit blind-sided by the religious issue and wasn't as able to address as well as I would have hoped. I was trying to deal with it the best I could, which seemingly wasn't very well.

As it isn't useful to you, since we aren't discussing a real-world model, or anything based on real-world models, feel free to ignore it. The subject can be dismissed, and the discussion moved on to something else, or ended.

While I think the discussion could be useful to me in a theoretical sence, and possibly pertinant to another project down the road, I think (as you noted above) it could be addressed better elsewhere than here where it has to deal with the baggage of a particular fictional setting.

[madelf]

Just as an additional note.

I did it again with the pollution issue, didn't I?
Referencing the real world in one breath, and insisting that the real world has no application with the next.

let me try to clarify. I'm probably going to refer to our world again because...well it's the only one we got. And some elements of my game setting are based on the real world. I guess what I need to specify is that I'm only basing things on the real world up to the point where my goals for the world require it to diverge from our own.
The religious magic thing for instance...doesn't work with the concept, can't use it.
The victorian ignorance, or avoidance, of the issues of pollution... works, I'll use it.

I hope that helps clarify my ramblings.
Sorry if I've confused anyone.

[madelf]

With a bit of outside help, I've come to realize that some of my posts in response to the religious issues may have come across a bit more reactionary than I intended, if not downright pissy.

All I can say, and it's not much of a defense, is that the discussion reached a point where I began to get defensive about what I (probably wrongly) perceived as an insistance that my game must deal with religion in a realistic manner whether I liked it or not. Fortunately this issue has been resolved, and hopefully clarified enough that there is no longer so much confusion on all sides.

It still remains, however, for me to apologize for the tone of some of my posts. They were more harsh and dismissive than was called for, or intended. To all those who were the targets of those comments, please accept my apologies.

[permacultureguerilla]

I know personally, if anything you've said were directed toward me I would not take offence. But that's me. Paganism was always a big issue with me, but I shouldn't be drawing out some soap opera about it.

Also, I rarely see people so careful with their comments except on this forum (of course, I vent on other forums where I'm welcome to be "pissy" lol. I can be pretty darn "colourful").

Since I want this post to be of use, though, I did have some thoughts on summarizing issues in your game. I'm hoping to boil them down to several phrases. I am "doing unto others as I would have them do unto me" in general. But not importantly.

1) Fear of magic. We've summarized that the threats magic poses are intense, but not complex. You can be "burned" or what-not. You're hoping for a better term.

2) Victorian era means the place is not pretty. I have a few remarks regarding victorian culture as well (here comes another debate, lol). Oh-- sparked thought: Are you repeating the era or some history as well? I'd hate to have to incorporate into my game the clash between Native Americans and europeans, etc etc.

Does it just simulate the era and not the map? The latter would save you the complications I mentioned.

3) So it's science, but not splitting hairs (or atoms). It's gardening before the genome. I can picture a soldier talking . . .

"Me and the squad were out on a seven-eighty-two. We were supposed to get the brits, and they called on one of them black mages. He burned half my crew and I survived under one of my comrade's bodies . . . " That might be a little too modern.

Really, a lot of this seems pretty basic. I also imagine kids in school, one of the first thing they're tested for is witchery / wizardry. Actually, a lot of third world countries probably have better programs for kids simply because they want to see if they have potential. And then there'd be mages that stay secret. Even people who aren't practitioners are probably questioned and interrogated occasionally.

I still have to bring up the mundane job thing, forgive me :(. Like what if one can cast a spell that has a use which isn't constant but common. Like lifting library books off and on the top shelf :) I know, I can't drop it.

[madelf]

I know personally, if anything you've said were directed toward me I would not take offence. But that's me. Paganism was always a big issue with me, but I shouldn't be drawing out some soap opera about it.

I just had some things that came out sounding a little different than I intended. Hopefully I didn't upset anyone too much, but just in case I did, I wanted to address it.

Overall I'm enjoying the questions and suggestions. Even when I respond with answers that shoot down the suggestions, or explain away the questions, it still helps me to solidify my concept.

Oh-- sparked thought: Are you repeating the era or some history as well? I'd hate to have to incorporate into my game the clash between Native Americans and europeans, etc etc.

Heh...Actually I've included the native inhabitant vs the colonizing foreigner clash, and expanded it to take place on two fronts with slightly different treatments.

"Me and the squad were out on a seven-eighty-two. We were supposed to get the brits, and they called on one of them black mages. He burned half my crew and I survived under one of my comrade's bodies . . . " That might be a little too modern.

Actually that's not far off the concept, though it would take several mages (or a very, very powerful single mage) to cause that much carnage.

I also imagine kids in school, one of the first thing they're tested for is witchery / wizardry. Actually, a lot of third world countries probably have better programs for kids simply because they want to see if they have potential.

Hmm, possibly. Chances are though that they wouldn't be encouraged to dabble in magic as children. More likely schools would be drilling the (very real) dangers of magic into them to keep them from injuring themselves. And technically all the children would be "talented" to some extent.

And then there'd be mages that stay secret. Even people who aren't practitioners are probably questioned and interrogated occasionally.

No, I don't think this would be the case. There may be some people skilled in the use of magic who don't advertise that fact, in the same way that someone who is a skilled marksman might not advertise it. If people don't know, it might prove an advantage. But not in the way you're suggesting. Remember that anyone, not just the talented, can cast magic. Spellcasting isn't a talent, it's a learned skill. Like any skill it may be easier to learn, and use, if you already have high scores in the traits that the skill is based on.But the magically gifted person is not as unusual as you seem to be thinking. It's simply that most people don't use magic because for the basic day-to-day elements of life it isn't all that useful, so they don't bother to learn the skill. And not being skilled, magic use becomes dangerous. So they stay away from it.
So the correllation between the X-men's distrust of mutants storyline, or any similar concept of people skilled in magic being feared and persecuted really isn't accurate for this setting, as anyone who really wants to can be a mage. All it takes is some study and hard work. So why fear them, when there's plenty of other things to fear. In fact when some monster wanders in out of the borderlands, or an unrestful corpse rises from the local graveyard, the skilled mage may suddenly be everybody's best buddy.

I still have to bring up the mundane job thing, forgive me :(. Like what if one can cast a spell that has a use which isn't constant but common. Like lifting library books off and on the top shelf :) I know, I can't drop it.

No forgiveness necessary. But actually the way the magic system works (assuming the system works as intended of course), you'd be better off just reaching up there and getting the book. You'd be less likely to drop it that way than using magic to get it down.

[simon_hibbs]

I just had some things that came out sounding a little different than I intended. Hopefully I didn't upset anyone too much, but just in case I did, I wanted to address it.

Overall I'm enjoying the questions and suggestions. Even when I respond with answers that shoot down the suggestions, or explain away the questions, it still helps me to solidify my concept.

I've come (back) to this discussion thread quite late, but I've looked through it to get up to date.

I think the problem is when you start talking about magic, gods and religion people naturaly assume that you are using these terms in familiar ways. If in fact 'magic', 'gods' and 'religion' bear little or no resemblence to what people normaly assume those terms to refer to, confusion is almost guaranteed. Especialy when you put in comments on real religion in the same paragraph, with no seperation of terms.

It seems (to me) that your setting is realy a low-powered, gritty superhero game set 150 years ago, but with the pseudo-scientific terminology superhero games usualy use replaced with pseudo-pagan gloss. You even talk about 'energy sources' and such in much the same way that superhero games do.

I'm not realy clear where the pagan curch comes from though. In the history of your game, how did it start? If your game diverges from real history at some point, was it based on existing real pagan religions, or was it created from whole cloth and just given a pagan veneer (seems more likely). Who are the 'pagan gods' realy? They sound like powerful aliens, or something similar. Did they only appear recently in your game world, or have they always been around and actual real-world religions never realy existed in your game world?


Simon Hibbs

[madelf]

I think the problem is when you start talking about magic, gods and religion people naturaly assume that you are using these terms in familiar ways. If in fact 'magic', 'gods' and 'religion' bear little or no resemblence to what people normaly assume those terms to refer to, confusion is almost guaranteed. Especialy when you put in comments on real religion in the same paragraph, with no seperation of terms.

I think much of the problem comes from the fact that I didn't plan to bring religion into the discussion, and wasn't really ready for anyone else to. I tried to address it as best I could, but even I'm not 100% sure exactly how I want to handle it in the game yet. I do know I don't want to make a big deal out of it.
As has been pointed out before, the entire real-world historical religion dicussion didn't really belong here. I think trying to deal with it here at all caused most of the confusion.
Hopefully that's been cleared up now. If it hasn't been, I have little hope that it can be at this point.

It seems (to me) that your setting is realy a low-powered, gritty superhero game set 150 years ago, but with the pseudo-scientific terminology superhero games usualy use replaced with pseudo-pagan gloss. You even talk about 'energy sources' and such in much the same way that superhero games do.

Okay. I can live with that definition. Call it anything you like. But is there really any difference between a traditional fantasy game (D&D for instance) and a superhero game if you apply those criteria?
To me if you give what would be normal people powers or abilities they wouldn't ordinarily have, then you could say they're "superheros" no matter the setting, background, or terminology you use.
Really I don't see that it makes a difference what it's called. I would call my game fantasy, but I certainly won't be offended if somebody wants to call it something else.
As far as the pseudo-pagan gloss, that will apply only to the religion, which will be a minor background element, as I don't intend to make religion the focus of the game at all. In fact the game could be easily played with absolutely no reference to religion or gods whatsoever. There aren't even clerics.

I'm not realy clear where the pagan curch comes from though. In the history of your game, how did it start? If your game diverges from real history at some point, was it based on existing real pagan religions, or was it created from whole cloth and just given a pagan veneer (seems more likely). Who are the 'pagan gods' realy? They sound like powerful aliens, or something similar. Did they only appear recently in your game world, or have they always been around and actual real-world religions never realy existed in your game world?

That last one.
In so far as I have it put together at this point...
The gods in the game are loosely based on figures from celtic myth, but they really aren't intended to accurately reflect celtic religion (the pagan veneer). Partly because I didn't want it to, and partly because I would imagine that if the ancient celtic religion was still around in 1850, it would have looked a lot different anyway. But mostly because I didn't want it to.
Exactly what the gods are doesn't need to be defined right now. I'm keeping my options open there. (But if magic exists, then they might actually be gods, why not?) They have always been around, at least so far as anyone knows. Actual real-world religions do not exist (there are some passing resemblances, but that's about it). While there are several different fictional religions, they actually follow the same gods (though they may not realize that necessarily), they just go about it a little differently.

[permacultureguerilla]

Ever since Stargate, I've liked the concept of Ra. Before Ra, the "cartographed myth," I guess I could call it, is pretty obscure.

Thus: Any time I have an Earth-similar concept where Gods were in history, I start it with Ra, the sun god symbolized by the golden calf. Kind of a ringleader. Of course, then is Gaia- somewhat the opposite. Mother to all the other greek Gods. Perhaps Ra would have left egypt when the jews were no longer enslaved. I realize this has gone way off your intentions, and I don't know if it's all accurate.

[contracycle]

Okay. I can live with that definition. Call it anything you like. But is there really any difference between a traditional fantasy game (D&D for instance) and a superhero game if you apply those criteria?

Probably not, no, because trad. fantasy games are pretty much content free.  So, I didn't make the reccomendation earlier, but have you read the Fantasy Heartbreakers articles?  I think they are worth a browse.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/10/
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/