help with magic?

[madelf]

I had this longwinded essay, but the stupid thing didn't post & I lost it. So to briefly make the same points....

Probably not, no, because trad. fantasy games are pretty much content free. So, I didn't make the reccomendation earlier, but have you read the Fantasy Heartbreakers articles? I think they are worth a browse.

I don't understand what you're saying here. I thought the point of your heartbreakers articles was that "traditional fantasy" games (ie: heartbreakers) were D&D based, & thus lacking in original content.
I don't see how this relates to the possiblity of defining D&D itself as a pseudo-medieval super-heroes game.

I'd also like to reassure you that my game is not a D&D derivitive. I (like every other gamer I've ever known) started with D&D, but I always hated most of it. The first time I DM'd, I wrote my "heartbreaker". It was a 4-page outline of changes to the rules. It got me by for a while, but D&D has done nothing but annoy me for a very long time.
This game (while I have no delusions about it being the innovation of the decade, or even the week) bears virtually no resemblance system-wise to D&D. (It's actually beginning to remind me more of Shadowrun in some ways, but even that's not really accurate as the complexity of Shadowrun is possibly even worse than D&D).
It is a fantasy game (by my definitions), it does have fantasy races, and the setting could probably be used in D&D pretty easily. It's intended to be a good fun swords & sorcery meets six-guns & steam pseudo-victorian fantasy game (because I like good old fashioned swords & sorcery, darn it ) and hopefully it won't break any hearts.

[contracycle]

I don't understand what you're saying here. I thought the point of your heartbreakers articles was that "traditional fantasy" games (ie: heartbreakers) were D&D based, & thus lacking in original content.
I don't see how this relates to the possiblity of defining D&D itself as a pseudo-medieval super-heroes game.

Thats part of it.  It's also the case that there are a lot of standing assumptions taken from the D&D model and duplicated; its not just the fact that the content is often unoriginal, but that the pattern of content is unoriginal too.  In fact the problem is most accute IMO when you see a game that clearly has got original ideras and they have been squashed into a very conventional framework.

It is a fantasy game (by my definitions), it does have fantasy races, and the setting could probably be used in D&D pretty easily. It's intended to be a good fun swords & sorcery meets six-guns & steam pseudo-victorian fantasy game (because I like good old fashioned swords & sorcery, darn it ) and hopefully it won't break any hearts.

Why does it have fantasy races?  What particular effect are they there to achieve, or are they just there because Thats What RPG Is?

Similarly, why is you magic so balanced and prone to disastrous consequences?  Is this in ordert ot detail a specific idea or principle, or just because of the chimerical "Balance"?

Why does magic even exist at all, if its really Weird Science?  How are you going to achieve a sword and sorcery feel if magic is no more significant than steam power? (which incidentally also has a chance of going horribly wrong and killing you).

The problem with Heartbreakers is that they have a nugget of gold buried under a mountian of dross, most of it brought about by dubious expectations about what is required in an RPG.

[madelf]

Why does it have fantasy races? What particular effect are they there to achieve, or are they just there because Thats What RPG Is?

It has fantasy races for the simple reason that , for this particular project, that's what I wanted.
I certainly don't think fantastic races are necessary for fantasy, or for fantasy RPGs. I do think my game would be quite a bit different without them, and would not be the game I had in mind.

Similarly, why is you magic so balanced and prone to disastrous consequences? Is this in ordert ot detail a specific idea or principle, or just because of the chimerical "Balance"?

Actually my biggest concern is that my magic isn't balanced enough and will completely take over the game, changing the tone in ways I'm not looking for.
My magic system is the result of sitting down with pen & paper and asking myself, "What do I want magic to do, and how do I want it to feel?" What I have laid out here is the result of that. So you could say it's detailing a specific set of ideas.
The disastrous consequences are there to make people think twice. The possible consequences (and time factors to a lesser extent) are the only balance this magic system has. The skill to decrease the chances of those consequences, and the courage (or lack of sense) to risk, and endure, those consquences are all that seperates a mage from a sheepherder.

Why does magic even exist at all, if its really Weird Science? How are you going to achieve a sword and sorcery feel if magic is no more significant than steam power? (which incidentally also has a chance of going horribly wrong and killing you).

Well, for one...I'm not the guy insisting it's weird science. I'm just not worried about semantics. Call it science if you want, but it really isn't in my opinion, and it certainly isn't technological.
Producing technology usually involves things a little different than hand gestures, incantations and ritual sacrifices. And try producing a scientific effect with nothing but force of will. Add in the random factors, making the exact same outcome twice a row a low probability, and (by my definitions) you have an art.
Why does it exist? Because I want it to. And by the premise of the game, it's has always existed. Science and technology are the new kids on the block.
I can achieve a sword and sorcery feel (even if nobody uses swords) because it is a feel, not a fixed set of parameters. Steam does lots of things well. It runs machines, it powers transportation devices, it very efficiently does all the mundane things that magic doesn't do well at all. (and I believe steam, unless you're talking about a highly experimental device, is fairly relaible and predictable unless someone does something fairly stupid with it. Follow the directions, and it should be no problem. It, unlike magic, is very predictable)
On the other hand, even if you get into the exotic realms of steampunk, which I'm not yet sure if I want to do, steam is really very limited. It doesn't transport well, being big & bulky, so you can't use it everywhere. It is fixed in it's purpose. If you build a steam powered machine to do one thing, then that's what it does.
Magic can do pretty nearly anything you want it to, on demand. Magic is versatile, can be used anywhere, and needs no fuel or tools, or heavy equipment to carry it around. On the other hand, it's not nearly so predictable as steam power.
So I think magic and steam power will feel quite a bit different, they are most efficent at completely opposite tasks , and I don't think they'll get in each others way at all.

The problem with Heartbreakers is that they have a nugget of gold buried under a mountian of dross, most of it brought about by dubious expectations about what is required in an RPG.

I think equally risky is discounting elements of an rpg simply because they aren't what you would have done. For instance, you seem to be encouraging me to dump magic and fantasy races from my game, apparently because they simply aren't required. I'll grant you that the game could work without those. But it certainly wouldn't be the same game. It would be a victorian adventure game. It might still be good,  but I'm not trying to make  Sherlock Holmes the role playing game.
I'm trying to make my game. And my game has fantasy races and magic, not because they have to be there to make it a roleplaying game, but because they have to be there to make it the roleplaying game I intended.
I have no expectations whatsoever about what is required in RPGs.  Requirement isn't the issue for me, only what I desire in that RPG.
The expectation that simply because a game has magic and fantasy races, it must be done out of ignorance, or assumption of "requirements" you don't agree with, is as wrong as the "heartbreaker" approach. Sometimes people may do things because they want to, not because they think they have to, or because it hasn't dawned on them that they could do it differently.

[contracycle]

Sure.  It's not impossible... thats why my first question to you was why the magic system was there and if it was there for a specific purpose.  And I understood your answer to be generally No.

(and I believe steam, unless you're talking about a highly experimental device, is fairly relaible and predictable

It all depends on the metallurgy, which is not so predictable.  Its not the steam thats important, its the case that its in.  There's nothing inherent to steam technology that could not have been built in the Bronze Age, barring reliable quality metallurgy.

If you build a steam powered machine to do one thing, then that's what it does.

Actually not true - all steanm engines do the same thing, which is drive a piston.  The cotton mills, frex, had complicated systems of bars, pulleys, chains and levers to distribute the fiorce from the piston to mutliple machines on multiuple floors.  You can almost always remove the actual steam engine as a distinct component and fit it to something else.

But anyway, the above is off the point.

I think equally risky is discounting elements of an rpg simply because they aren't what you would have done. For instance, you seem to be encouraging me to dump magic and fantasy races from my game, apparently because they simply aren't required.

Not exactly.  Conceded, I do think races in RPG's are mostly dross and of little value in actual play.  More specifically, my criticism is that I don't think theres a point in introducing a McGuffin unless the McGuffin is important.

The expectation that simply because a game has magic and fantasy races, it must be done out of ignorance, or assumption of "requirements" you don't agree with, is as wrong as the "heartbreaker" approach.

It would be if I had leaped to that assumption.  But that is why I asked about what magic was there fore, and tried to discuss other games which have made magic more central to their play and setting.

[madelf]

It all depends on the metallurgy, which is not so predictable. Its not the steam thats important, its the case that its in. There's nothing inherent to steam technology that could not have been built in the Bronze Age, barring reliable quality metallurgy.

True. Which is why I put in the qualifier about experimental devices.
I'm just assuming that steam, at this point, is a pretty well known quantity, and that knowing how much steam pressure you're going to apply you know how strong the tank has to be.

Actually not true - all steanm engines do the same thing, which is drive a piston. The cotton mills, frex, had complicated systems of bars, pulleys, chains and levers to distribute the fiorce from the piston to mutliple machines on multiuple floors. You can almost always remove the actual steam engine as a distinct component and fit it to something else.

Right, but with magic you can make the same "engine" do many different things without all the pulleys, chains and levers.
And by "machine" I was referring to the entire complex assembly. In the same way that a lawnmower or a sawmill are not the same machine, even though the both run off an internal combustion engine. The engine by itself really won't do anything.

Not exactly. Conceded, I do think races in RPG's are mostly dross and of little value in actual play. More specifically, my criticism is that I don't think theres a point in introducing a McGuffin unless the McGuffin is important.

I respect that view, and understand it. In this case I think the races are important. They are very much a defining element of the game. They were added very intentionally, and it would be a different game without them. Better, worse? I don't know. But definitely different than what I'm going for.
On the otherhand, If anyone didn't want to deal with the races...all they'd have to do is place the campaign in a country where the demi-human races are in the minority (therefore not a major controlling factor) and ignore them. I think it would be missing out on a lot of the fun, but it could be done.
The game could also be done by ignoring the fantasy race issue and treating the "races" as cultures, which I gather would be your preference.
I didn't do this partly because I think it would have made the setting too "real-world". I think the presence of the other races reinforces the idea that this is not our world, and should let me get away with less realism than might otherwise be expected.

Now I could also have tried to creat new races as opposed to basing them on the "cliche" fantasy races, but I've seen so many games that try to twist the cliches into something else and hide the fact that they're still the same old elf or dwarf with a stuck on disguise. It just looks pathetic and I didn't want to fall into that trap.
I've (once or twice) seen games with really unique races that didn't scream white-washed halflings (or whatever), but they need a ground-breaking concept to succeed. I didn't have a ground breaking racial concept, but I wanted races. So I figured why not go with the old standard and give them a little twist so they're not still D&D...but acknowledge the fact that they're still elves, gnomes, dwarves, etc. rather than hiding that fact.

It would be if I had leaped to that assumption. But that is why I asked about what magic was there fore, and tried to discuss other games which have made magic more central to their play and setting.

I was hoping that's what you were going for. It can be hard to tell sometimes from the swiftly written word, just what someone is trying to say.
I'm not sure I can really explain exactly why I want magic. I just do. And I want it to not be the exclusive domain of the well-trained or (even worse) the uniquely talented. There are rules that encourage the average Joe to not try magic, but there is nothing (other than good sense) to prevent him from actually trying it.
It's a different treatment of magic than what I've usually seen, maybe that's why I want to do it. It's not "traditional D&D type fantasy" and it's not "realistic fantasy", it's something more interesting than either one to me.
Maybe other people will hate it with a passion. But that's a chance I'll just have to take.