Realms of Wonder from Action Studios

[John Harper]

Hey Marcus,

You asked about games to read for inspiration. Here are two:

The Riddle of Steel
This game got me excited about "standard fantasy" all over again. More than a campaign setting and game system, this game addresses the how and why of gameplay far beyond "go adventuring". This is the game to beat in this market, IMO.

Trollbabe
This game couldn't be more different from yours, but it could be considered swords-and-sorcery/fantasy. I recommend reading it just to see a totally different approach to gameplay and style and as an example of the state of the art in progressive RPG design.

[Hardpoint]

Thank you for being honest, everyone. I do appreciate it. I know the setting is not terribly exotic (but then that is not necessarily bad, as you've said...it's just not for you...which is also ok), but there are ways to set oneself apart. I just need help finding those things out. Punching up the things that aren't so interesting would also help, but races are not going to change at this point.

Perhaps what I should be asking is what IS interesting? What are the "cool things?" Everyone has mentioned them, but no specifics were given. If I don't know what my strong points are, I will have a hard time focusing on them.

As for the stats issue, it used to be a lot worse, but that was back when all it was, was a homebrew system. It's gone through countless iterations, tossing all the borrowed mechanics and replaced by new ones. For the most part, the primary stats are the ones that matter most, as they directly figure into skill fomulae. The Secondary Stats are more provided to give players ready information so they don't have to look stuff up that often.

[Ben Lehman]

Perhaps what I should be asking is what IS interesting? What are the "cool things?" Everyone has mentioned them, but no specifics were given. If I don't know what my strong points are, I will have a hard time focusing on them.

BL>  I believe that there is an active setting design thread in this very forum, right now (or perhaps in RPG theory.)  Check it out.

[Hardpoint]

Hey Marcus,

You asked about games to read for inspiration. Here are two:

The Riddle of Steel
This game got me excited about "standard fantasy" all over again. More than a campaign setting and game system, this game addresses the how and why of gameplay far beyond "go adventuring". This is the game to beat in this market, IMO.

I've got the freebie version, but have yet to find the printed one in my local game store. I would love to purchase a copy online, as I love the approach to combat. It's combat system is similar to my own, albeit I use a less player knowledge intensive system. The only issue I see with the combat system in TROS (which I love) is that some players will naturally overpower others and that can leave some players who don't get the stategy side of the system down as well feeling a little inadequate. I've seen similar problems with Champions. Players who know how to manipulate the system better than others (in Champions it's knowing how to play the Speed Chart) will always win a fight. I like a little randomness in there as well, but giving the players a lot of flavor in their combat in the form of options in ways to defeat an opponent that stem from real combat. While I did not have the level of realism that TROS put into their research, I have had the system nudged and tweaked by those who do engage in real Rennaisance era (as well as Japanese) combat styles. It was the input of a Kenjutsu and SCA fighter that got me on that road in the first place.

Trollbabe
This game couldn't be more different from yours, but it could be considered swords-and-sorcery/fantasy. I recommend reading it just to see a totally different approach to gameplay and style and as an example of the state of the art in progressive RPG design.

Head of it, but unfortunately finances and time have prevented me from checking it out. I certainly will investigate it though.

[John Harper]

Yeah, TROS has a cool combat system. And I also think it's a bit player-skill intensive, but that can be fun too sometimes. But that's not what makes TROS cool, IMO. The spiritual attributes are where it's at. You could toss out everything else from TROS and the spiritual attributes system alone would be worth the price of the book. TROS is not "just another fantasy game" because of the player-defined SAs and the way they shape gameplay.

I'm NOT saying, "You should have SAs in your game." Far from it. I'm just saying, "This is a game that distinguishes itself from the pack." You need to find your own way. What really excites you about your game? What is the one thing about it that you are most proud of?

[Matt Machell]

Hardpoint, my suggestion is to try and sum up what you'd like to make your setting/system cool and different in one paragraph(no more than 100 words). Like a marketing blurb. Really go to town on the coolness. As if you are selling it to somebody (like me!).

Then look at that paragraph and ask yourself how true thsoe comments are. Be honest, and find textual examples in the game for each of them. If it's not true. Consider how you will make it so.

While this is a very abstract excercise, it will help you see what you consider to be the key features of your game compared to everything else on the market.


-Matt

[Trevis Martin]

And an additional note on TROS.  It does distinguish itself from the pack in the way the SA's interact and with its combat system.  However, from what I understand (though someone who knows better could correct me) The setting is fairly standard fantasy.

This is not a Criticism of TROS, but rather an illustration of the above point  that a standard fantasy setting isn't a bad thing but TROS's combat and SA's more than help it stand out from the pack.

regards,

Trevis

[Hardpoint]

Ok...here goes (this is off the top of my head so bear with me...)

Realms of Wonder is a game where its key elements are flexibility and cinematic style gaming. Heroes are either Wielders of Steel or Wielders of Magic, with Professions that dictate starting skill sets, but are free to branch out after play begins. In fact, even the ability to determine how one advances in Rank is up to the player. Each Hero chooses a Fighting Style, which gives him certain Moves in Combat, but those Moves can be added to, further fleshing out your Hero's repertoire. Similarly, Magic has four forms of High Magic and three Low Magic forms, all of which can be mixed and matched, all that limits your Hero is time and experience. Flexibility in how you use your magic is employed through a system wherein portions of your Power are spent, allowing for the maximum control over the magic you use. Hero Points give the players the flexibility to make things go their way when the dice fail them, but there is a limit, as even the most heroic individual's luck can run out.


Side note....

After looking at the G/N/S thread, I'd say the style of the game is a bit of all 3 with a lean towards the G and N sides.

On TROS

just from reading the freebie version, I'd say that TROS was heavily influenced by Conan the movie (hence the name) as well as some screenwriting character development works (though this is just what I gleaned from it). The notion of building a character based on "what does he want and how far is he willing to go to get it" is a good way of approaching any character be it PC or NPC.

[Hardpoint]

Realms of Wonder Game Aspects

Character Creation

- Pick a Race and Nationality
- Generate Stats via Random or Point Based methods...GM Choice
- Professions are merely a starting point.
- You determine your career path by selecting 12 skills that you define as "Professional" skills. It is these skills you selected which you need to increase to rise in Rank.

Combat

- Players have a Fighting Style which has Moves
- Moves are used in combat for various strikes, blocks, and special Moves
- Unarmed Combat has list of Moves too (but these are the same for everyone with Unarmed Combat)
- Combat intended to be quick, yet cinematic

Magic

- Alchemy (players can make their own magical items, at any level with the right skills)
- Runes (take on different powers depending on what they are etched upon, which includes weapons, armor, items, structures, and even as tattoos)
- Rites (simple magical rituals that confer minor bonuses but last a long time)
- Sorcery (characters get to make their own spells, at any level, and have full control over how their Power is spent, thus giving maximum flexibility)
- Faith-based Miracles (currently a set list, but each miracle has a differing effect depending on what Rank you are...the more powerful you are the simple miracles become more grandiose)
- Ecomancy (like Sorcery, but is totally freeform within the Elements your Hero is skilled with. Heroes begin with 1 Element, but as they grow in Rank, eventually learn to use them all)
- Witchcraft (a summoning magic wherein the Hero can summon the spirit as a creature, or merely borrow the spirit's powers, even form, for a time by way of making offerings. A magic type that requires preparation, but has a lot of power to it)

World Setting

- Focuses on the religious and political struggles which are locked in a long history with one another. It is a world where evil is typically defined by bigotry.

[ethan_greer]

Okay.  based on what you have so far, it seems like your game system is more important to you than your setting.  Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but you've presented us with all this system info, and only a couple of sentences about the setting.  Could it be that you're more into the system, and your setting is an afterthought, something added on to pad, flesh out, and (maybe) justify the rules?  Not saying that's bad, just food for thought.  Many games take this approach - D&D obviously being the most successful example.

I'm impressed by the different options available for magic, in particular.  There's potential for a great deal of flexibility in play.

[Hardpoint]

PS Needless to say, today is a bit emotional for me. Sorry.

No big deal Marcus.  I realize that we can sometimes come across like a bucket of cold water in the face, especially when you so obviously care very much about your creation*.  But here's a secret: we actually care about your creation, too.  Not as much as you do, obviously - we've all got our own cauldrons to tend, after all.  But we do care, and we'd like to help you make it better.

*The attractiveness of your website is testimony to that... Very well done.

This is a very encouraging thing. Thank you. I've been doing and redoing this game for like 17 years. Most of that time it's sat in a corner and stewed with every now and then I come back to it, retool it, and make it better. Now I've decided to put my money where my mouth is and finish the bloody thing, something until now I've not done. This post, along with Mike's apology, really make me feel at home here. Thanks to you all for your comments, both positive and negative.

[Hardpoint]

The setting being told it was "vanilla" I was attempting to meet the request to show how my game is different. I've been pouring a lot into the history of the world, the religions, naming conventions, etc.

John Wick once reviewed the game a long time ago, back when I was playtesting the L5R RPG for him, and he told me that "people don't want systems, they want worlds" and I began the process of fully integrating the world into the rules. Originally Realms of Wonder was going to be setting lite system, designed to replace (if you so chose) your existing one and allowing you to use whatever setting you want. But his comments where the one that drove me to start really delving into the world.

Yes, this is the world I run my games in. The world, for me, is my home away from home. I can see the cities, the clothing, the people. I developed the counting system for the Elves, allowing numbers all the way into 11,000+ (as that is the year according to Elvish reckoning). When I began my path into Judaism (about 3 years ago) is when I began to devise the tale of the Elvish religion, their rise and fall, and the tale of Human oppression. Mind you, the Elves having been a fallen empire that once ruled most of the world has always been there, even back nearly 20 years ago when the first inklings of the nations presented were there. The names have remained the same, mostly, but the details have changed a little. For the most part, the world presented has been the one I've been using for the last 2 decades.

I'll be honest, a lot of the world's elements were inspired by either historical tales or by the books and films I grew up with. Stuff like Sinbad movies, Elric, Conan, Zorro, and of course, Errol Flynn pirate films (The Seahawk being my all time favorite). In later years I added Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series as an influence along with a heavy dose of Joseph Michael Straczynski, as well as a thousand other influences, some fantasy some not.

I want a game where the players are supposed to be heroes, but don't have to be. Where they can do evil things, but it will come back to haunt them (providing the GM is doing his job). I want people to indulge in the world where the Human's savior is also the destroyer of countless Elvish lives. To explore the turmoil between the Elves and Humans, who were forced to be allies in the last great war, crawling out of the ruins of that conflict, only to return right back to ancient hatreds and bigotry. The idea behind the world was to present a world where ideology is as strong as the need to do the right thing. The true heroes are the ones who can rise above those petty hatreds, but not all of the righteouos ones are able to so easily let go of such things. There are no blacks and whites in this world, only shades of gray; where good men sometimes to evil things but for what they feel is the right thing to do.

An example of this is the city of Cerena, a holy city erected by the Humans in order to celebrate the miracle of their army not only surviving an ambush of 8 times their number, but winning as well. They see it as a holy city, a momument to throwing off the chains of oppression; but the Elves see it as a momument to slaughter, a reminder of their greatest failure. To some it stands as a testament to the Blessed Mother and Father turning away from them. This makes some Elves embrace the Humans and do whatever they can to make amends for the sins of their people, while others use it as an excuse to make war; the idea being that obviously their ancestors were weak and now is the time to return to their former glory. Thus the stage is set for players to enter a world on the brink of Holy War. As this goes on, there are those who follow the darker path, a nihilistic Black Church who seeks to free their imprisoned god, the Lord of Oblivion, and thus return the world to its "natural state" nothingness.

The presentation of the back story and the game itself is layed out like the "Old Testament". This is why the website has the various Books. The rulebook is being done the same way. The Book of Origin tells the world history and setting. The Book of Lore covers character generation. The Book of Order governs Task Resolution and Combat. The Book of Arcana is about magic. The final book, The Book of Prophets, is the GM section.

I focused on the system since that was what it seemed set the game apart, but the world is something I'm devoting a great deal of time to lately. The problem is boiling it down to only 100 words...lol My guestimate is that the book is looking to be around 300 pages. I'm a little wordy, I know. I'm also not skimping on the art, going for fairly high standards here to avoid the stigma most games seem to have. Hell, even the WOD stuff sometimes has crappy art. This is why I've been getting the art contracts handed out now...while I'm still writing it. I am using the same sort of take that John Milius did with the first Conan movie. For those who don't know, John brought Basil Pouledouris in to write the music while they were still filming as he wanted the music to be a character in the film. I feel the art in my game has to have the same kind of impact. I wish I had limitless funds, as I'd hire some of the men I've had the pleasure to work with in my video game career, but alas, I'm doing the best I can. I'm liking what I see and have turned away some stuff that was free because it was not up to my standards.

This above standards is one of the reasons why I seek your advice and critiques, but I am looking for constructive stuff. I'd also like to have specific examples of what is cool and what is not. If there's a problem with the dice mechanic, tell me where you see the problem. If there's something in particular that you like, please let me know. A pat on the back is worth a lot, as many of you probably know.

FYI, I've successfully used this dice mechanic in regular campaigning for nearly 5 years. It takes a short learning curve for players to grasp the Rank system, but once it's learned, things move swiftly, especially in combat where damage total is a direct result of the die roll. Hit Location can be left aside for those interested in speedier play, but it only adds a 2nd roll if used.

As a side note, If you're interested in the game style I run, check out the campaign site for "Defenders of the Faith" the campaign set in the game's "modern day" period. You can reach it from the Realms of Wonder site, the Action Studios Services page, or here.... http://www.actionstudios.com/realms/campaigns/defenders/index.html
I'm also running the final book in the saga via the Action Studios "Re:Action" forum (an interesting experience indeed)

[ethan_greer]

An example of this is the city of Cerena, a holy city erected by the Humans in order to celebrate the miracle of their army not only surviving an ambush of 8 times their number, but winning as well. They see it as a holy city, a momument to throwing off the chains of oppression; but the Elves see it as a momument to slaughter, a reminder of their greatest failure. To some it stands as a testament to the Blessed Mother and Father turning away from them. This makes some Elves embrace the Humans and do whatever they can to make amends for the sins of their people, while others use it as an excuse to make war; the idea being that obviously their ancestors were weak and now is the time to return to their former glory. Thus the stage is set for players to enter a world on the brink of Holy War. As this goes on, there are those who follow the darker path, a nihilistic Black Church who seeks to free their imprisoned god, the Lord of Oblivion, and thus return the world to its "natural state" nothingness.

See, now that's interesting.  Bring details like this out more and I think you'll do a lot to give your setting more punch.  You need to grab people right away, and the Book of Origins isn't really doing that right now.

[Valamir]

Ethan's spot on.

I have not read your website at all, but I've read through your posts to this thread a number of times.  The following points are fairly direct, but please take them in a constructive spirit.

Why haven't I visited your site?  Because as of yet nothing you'd mentioned about your game seemed very compelling to me to make it worth checking any further.  Please note that's NOT saying that your game isn't worth checking out...just that you haven't sold me on it.  You haven't yet convinced me that what I'll find there is worth the investment of my time.

My advice.  Find something about your game that you can sum up in a paragraph that isn't like anything else.  Something I can do with your game that I can't do with d20.  Something about your setting that I can't find already done in the forgotten realms.  Then find away to convey that in an exciting and compelling manner.  Clear, Concise, and Compelling are the 3 Cs to getting people to check out your game.  

Let me tell you so far what has piqued my interest.  To do that I'm going to examine your recent paragraph.

Realms of Wonder is a game where its key elements are flexibility and cinematic style gaming.

Good.  That contains information.  This isn't going to be a dark gritty world of carefully simulated game "reality".  This is cinematic.  I like information like this because when I then look at mechanics I can say things like "yes, the mechanics successfully capture the ability to play cinematically." or "no, the game claims to be cinematic, but the mechanics bog down in too much cumbersome minutia which slows everything down".

Heroes are either Wielders of Steel or Wielders of Magic

THIS...this is what caused me to perk up.  More on this below.

with Professions that dictate starting skill sets, but are free to branch out after play begins. In fact, even the ability to determine how one advances in Rank is up to the player. Each Hero chooses a Fighting Style, which gives him certain Moves in Combat, but those Moves can be added to, further fleshing out your Hero's repertoire. Similarly, Magic has four forms of High Magic and three Low Magic forms, all of which can be mixed and matched, all that limits your Hero is time and experience. Flexibility in how you use your magic is employed through a system wherein portions of your Power are spent, allowing for the maximum control over the magic you use. Hero Points give the players the flexibility to make things go their way when the dice fail them, but there is a limit, as even the most heroic individual's luck can run out.

This is good design note stuff.  Probably a good starting paragraph for a "Tell me more" page.  But as a selling point.  To many words about too much stuff.  You set me up with the Wielders line...and then I lost interest somewhere in the middle of Moves and Magic.

The Wielders...the Wielders man.  Tell me about those.  You asked what about a setting sounds cool.  THOSE sound cool.  I hope they are not just game terms like "Fighter" and "Magic-User".  That would be disappointing.  They need to be a part of your setting.  If I walked into the city of Cerena and declared "I am a Wielder, take me to your king" they'd know what that meant.

Tell me about the Wielders.  I'm envisioning powerful individuals beyond mere sword masters and magicians...Avatars of their craft.  These are movers and shakers of the world.  Where a Wielder goes men tremble and kings and emperors seek thier favor (or plot against them).  PCs are Wielders (or in the spirit of Ars Magica, the Companions of Wielders).  There are no "beginning characters".  You play a Wielder and are immediately immersed in the highest levels of power and intrigue...who do you serve.  Yourself...another...?  Who is worth serving?  Can any Wielder survive alone?  Not likely.  Who then do you ally yourself with?  When everyone wants to either use you or dispose of you, who can you trust.

That's the image that I got when I read the sentence I quoted above.  That's what came out and struck me between the eyes (only to leave me hanging).  I have no idea whether something like this is what you had in mind for the "Wielders" or if "Wielders" was nothing more than a variation of "Fighter" and "Magic-User".  

But I can say that something like this would get me to check out your game.  Something like this would set you apart.  Yes its a fairly standard fantasy world (with cool locations like Cerena)...but you don't play some low level scrub working his way up...you play Wielders.  THAT would be cool.

[Mike Holmes]

Yeah, what Ethan said. Every time I go back to read the site I get the feeling that I'm missing something. That there's more detail than I'm seeing. Am I looking at just a preview or something? Like when I go to the part in the Book of Lore on Chargen, I see that there are supposed to be a bunch of stats with "Base Scores" to add to. Where are the stats? And where are the Base Scores? In the combat system it mentions moves for the styles, but I can't find anything but a brief description of the styles. No weapon list. Etc, etc.

On the DL page, there's a bunch of stuff, including the "Jumpstart Edition", but it's all "coming soon."

So have I missed something, or is this just still somewhat incomplete (I keep getting the sinking feeling that there's some link that has a complete version that I've not discovered yet)? It all reads like a very elaborate ad. In any case, my analysis below is made more difficult by the missing information, and may be innacurate because of it. But I'll try to work from the assumptions that I have.

Before I do, I would also like to agree with Ethan that the site looks great. There isn't a big market for it yet, but weirdo's like me would love to get a copy of the HTML with the game (or just the HTML). So if you publish consider including it in the purchase, or having some way to access it.


Anyhow, on to brass tacs. The only real objections I have to the system is the weight it seems to place on the random roll, and the limited scope. I'm assuming that the 15/16 combination for stats given in the example is fairly good (the character is a mage doing mage stuff). Given that, this character can only get an increase from about 50% at level 0 (or is there a "non-proficiency" penalty?), to 67% at level 5. If I read that right, that's only a 17% increase in ability going from non-skilled to grandmaster. Some games do preference stats quite a bit, but I've never seen quite this level of stat preference.

The chance for a given character to attain a certain rank of success other than 5 does not increase with stats or skills. That is, most characters will have a 13.33% chance of a Rank one success, and a 10% chance of each Rank 2 to 4. The only one that actually increases is the chance to get a Rank 5 success, or a Crit, those odds coming out of the failure odds.

Again, I'm not sure what the stat levels go up to, but what if the levels can get very high? Let's say we have some Dex based stat with a pixie that has a Dex of 32. Is there any point to skills for this creature? Does it still crit fail (being the only sort of failure it can achieve) on a 30? Or does it never occur that stats related to rolls ever get above a 28? What about the effects of other bonuses and penalties?

Despite Criticals scaling up with skill, fumbles do not scale down at all. That is, no matter how bad I am at something, I have only the same chance to fumble as a character who is a statistically talented grandmaster. Also, in a similar vein, no matter how good your opponent is, you have the same chance to hit him. There doesn't seem to be any rules for defense at all.


To make this more constructive, I'll offer some ideas (on the assumption that my obserations aren't faulty due to missing info). First, to make skill a more important part of rolls, you might reduce the stat scale but more effective would be to increase the skill range, as you already seem to have a top end problem on the scale which needs to be fixed (See below). Typically, most systems give about as much effect to skill as stats, but that varies widely. A 1 to 10 range might do just fine.

To fix the top end problems, I would do some sort of open-ended thing likely. Meaning that 30 isn't a fumble, but requires you to roll again and add the roll to 29. With further 30s being additional adds of 29 and another roll. That way you can scale your stats as high as you like. In any case, you can stop rolling as soon as you know it's a failure if you use the method below.

To make successes scale more naturalistically with skill, try something like the following. This method seems to turn people off at first, but is faster than it sounds, and very dramatic: the continuing roll method. That is, you roll against your target (chance as you call it), and if you get a success you roll again. This continues counting successes until you get a failure. Same thing with failures, BTW, you roll again and again until you get a success. A "crit" then becomes getting, say, 6 successes (at which point you can stop rolling), and a "fumble" becomes, say for symetry's sake, 6 failures.

Again, this seems like a lot of extra rolls, but it has some distinct advantages. For one, you don't have to remember multiple target numbers (chance/level), and stats do add to your overall chance for a crit. Each higher level of success has a geometrically lower chance of occuring, getting better and better however with each increase in stat or skill. There is a greater scale of failure as well (instead of the standard Fail/Fumble dichotomy). Further, you could just not have "crit" levels, and just keep adding multipliers on for each success (i.e. 6 = x3, 7=x4, 8=x5, etc).

Anyhow, I'm not actually suggesting that you use any of these things directly. They're just the ideas that I had off the top of my head. But hopefully they'll be thought inspiring. Assuming I found any problems at all, and this is not all just misinterperetation. :-)

Mike