Realms of Wonder from Action Studios

[Hardpoint]

I'm mainly looking for feedback on the game information provided on the site. I am still working on the game, but the info on the site gives you a taste of the game I'm making.

Any feedback is welcome, preferrably constructive criticism. =)

[Mike Holmes]

Um, which game? Realms of Wonder? There are three on the page.

Also, check out the stickie at the top of the forum for notes on how to best post to get a response. I will ask one question, however: is this an new incarnation of some older game, or one that's been in design for a while? It seems familiar to me, though I can't place it.

Mike

[Hardpoint]

Sorry, I'm new here. I'll read the sticky. Thanks for pointing it out.

It's been in design for a while. Unfortunately, life has gotten in the way of game development, but I'm finally on track for a release either late this year or early next.

Yes, Realms of Wonder is the game in question. The other products on the Action Studios site are from my partners, which are also still in development.

For the record, we are still deciding on the exact method of distribution. Right now we are doing a printed book format, but not sure if we will be going POD or normal distribution (which is what we'd like to do).

[Mike Holmes]

What about the game do you have concerns about most? What would you most like to see discussed? Anything you think needs improvement?

Mike

[Hardpoint]

I've gotten no real feedback of any kind. I'm interested to know what people think of the game as presented. What areas draw you? What aspects make you groan? What do you think about the core task resolution mechanic (see the Book of Order page for details)?

I also would like to hear what people think of the setting as well as the presentation of the game. Basically, I'm presenting the game in 5 "Books" which are the various sections of the core rules book. There is a heavy religious strife bent to the world, having various peoples have real religions and histories based on said religions, as well as strife with others, is one of the main themes. The other main theme of the game is that just because you are right does not mean I am wrong and Heroes can come in all forms. There are no "evil" kingdoms, but there are evil people in all of them, as well as good ones.

The Book of Origin tells the back history of the world and how we get to where the players are going to begin the game. It establishes the setting.

The Book of Lore covers Hero Creation, further developing the setting as well as giving you a full understanding of how to make a Hero for the game. It also covers expanding said Hero.

The Book of Order covers Task Resolution and Combat. While weapons are listed in the Book of Lore, along with the rest of the gear lists, how to use them and the combat system are taught here.

The Book of Arcana covers magic. It also covers the Bestiary due to the way Witchcraft works in the game.

The Book of Prophets is the GM section and how to use techniques I call Cinematic Gamemastering, NPCs and how to make them, as well how to cover the basics like handing out EP, etc. I plan to include a ton of hooks for both adventures and campaigns using the setting. Some sample NPCs will be provided, but the emphasis will be on the GM carving his own new history for my world.

[Hardpoint]

Just to let you all know, I wasn't meaning to say that no one from this forum was giving feedback, I was meaning in general.

Other than the people already associated with the game thru playtesting, I've gotten little feedback from the general public. What little I have gotten was all positive. I was just hoping that this group getting exposure to it would help me to do the best I can with the project I'm working on.

I'm in the middle of working on my regular job (for Sony) and squeeze in some writing time, plus coordinate the art side, as well as keep my wife from killing me. All this and trying to get the game done before our first child arrives. Hopefully I will get some time to breathe and hit the head once in a while there.  =)

[Mike Holmes]

OK, now we're talking.

I'm interested to know what people think of the game as presented. What areas draw you? What aspects make you groan? What do you think about the core task resolution mechanic (see the Book of Order page for details)?

I took a good look at everything. And I'll be quite honest. You have a unique resolution system, but it has some serious problems. And the setting is absolutely bog standard (even the evil Elves idea was done in much the same way by Children of the Sun recently).

It's with respect that I feel that I have to point you to the article called Fantasy Heartbreakers by Ron Edwards. Try not to take it too harshly. There are some neat ideas there, but they're goint to need a lot of help if the game is going to go anywhere, IMO.

Mike

[Hardpoint]

You have a unique resolution system, but it has some serious problems. And the setting is absolutely bog standard (even the evil Elves idea was done in much the same way by Children of the Sun recently).

I think the "bog standard" comment is a little harsh. But whatver. Please explain what you mean by the system has serious problems? This concerns me greatly.

Thank you for pointing me to that article. It has a lot of interesting things to say. I don't necessarily agree with them all, but I see where he's coming from. It does carry a bit of the art snob mentality [edit note...I am not so inclined to think this way anymore], but I can understand and realize what he means. But that's another topic entirely.

[Hardpoint]

Edited my last post after truly delving into the article in question....Ron writes good stuff and I agree with him most of the time.... I hang my head in shame for being a bit reactionary.

And for the record, the Elves are not Evil...just a bit self-important and racist.

Also for the record, Realms of Wonder was influenced not so much by DnD, but more by Pendragon, James Bond, Stormbringer, Cyberpunk, Champions, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu, Vampire, Star Frontiers, and the PBM Duelmasters. Yes it was originally conceived and created as a game alternative to DnD, but I have deliberately tried to shy away from some of the DnDisms. The magic system is decidedly non-DnD, as is the combat system. The emphasis is on storytelling and person vs person conflict rather than treasure hunting and monster murder. My intention was to give players a setting and game system designed to foment more cinematic style gaming, rather than the more traditional "I attack him" mentality. I've found that less hardcore gamers have a hard time getting out of that mode of thinking. Getting them to try using the Combat Moves can take a bit of doing, but once they do, they really enjoy the fun of combat more interesting than that of a Final Fantasy/DnD fight.

[ethan_greer]

Well, I'd also be interested in hearing Mike's analysis of the system, 'cause I thought it looked okay... but then I didn't delve into the details too deeply, and I don't have Mike's eye.

As for being "bog standard," well, there's nothing wrong with being bog standard - as long as you're not trying to publish, market, and sell it.  For your own gaming, it's fine.  But I must agree with Mike that at this point, your setting isn't very marketable.

One idea to add some clout would be to shake things up a bit.  Maybe take what I call the Dragonlance approach - take your developed setting and drop a mountain on it.  Shake things up, make something outrageous and weird happen, turn the world upside-down, and outline all the repurcussions.  The game mechanics can be stable through all of that, but you will probably have a more interesting, and marketable, setting.

[Hardpoint]

I for one would be interested to hear suggestions on how to make it more interesting to the masses? I'm not one of those indie producers who is a snob when it comes to innovation. I feel that if someone does something really well, and creates an interesting setting, who cares if it is derivative. The feel and the ideas presented therein are what matters. 7th Sea, while derivative, creates a nice atmosphere for fun roleplaying. Pendragon has the cool personality traits aspect thereby forcing the players to sometimes do things outside their normal comfort zone. It foments interesting roleplay. This was the desire and drive behind creating my game.

Plenty of interesting settings that were not "bog standard" have tanked hard, as well. Remember Talisanta? How bout Skyrealms of Jorune? Just because it is different does not necessarily make it better. I'm a big fan of smaller games, as they do tend to require less stuff to play

I have no delusions that I will unseat the world champs with this one. I know that. I'm happy to produce a product that I want to play and have a finished looking product with which some others might be interested in playing. That's all any indie RPG maker can hope for really. Unless you have good money for marketing, you're not likely to make a real dent in the industry as it stands anyway.

I created a world based in the familiar, but with the twists of the concept that roleplaying is important over "I'm getting powerful because I kill things". The core thrust of the world setting and game system is to simulate the style and character driven storytelling of novels and movies. Instead of making a game that is nothing more than a video game with dice (DnD3 seems even more aimed to this end), I wanted to make a game that was oriented to roleplaying, but allows for all kinds of adventuring. I am trying to emphasize the religion side of the game, as the main drive for creating the various faiths in the game was to introduce organized religions into a world where gods are real. I did this because, even as a non-practitioner I felt it odd that Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, even the world of Dragonlance, had a very Greek Gods style set of cults instead of a fully formed Church style. Other than Stormbringer, no games seemed to deal with the very real strife of religious conflict. In today's world, religion plays as much a role in conflict as politics and the perception of evil does. Why not bring that into a fantasy world? The conflicts that can arise there seem more interesting in a roleplaying setting than the standard good vs evil. What happens when two peoples who both believe they are "good" clash? This is one of the key focuses of the game world as it stands now.

I came here to the Forge hoping for constructive criticism and instead feel like I got derision. Comments like this certainly do not endear me to this community, a place I was hoping to find some advice, assistance, and constructive criticism, perhaps even some new ideas and direction to go in before I finalize things too much. I also hope to find a new game to read and be inspired by, but comments like Mike's give me that Linux vs MS feel which frankly leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You may chalk this up as "yet another amateur getting his feelings hurt", but that's not the case. Yeah, I'm a little new to this side of the game, but I've been designing game systems for 20 years, albeit not professionally. I've learned a lot in the last several years about storytelling, character development, and the business of game development in my career in the computer game industry. I've also learned that I don't know everything, thus I came here.

[Hardpoint]

There are some neat ideas there, but they're goint to need a lot of help if the game is going to go anywhere, IMO.

I do appreciate this and am sorry it got lost on me initially. I'd like to get help making it more marketable and to punch up those neat ideas. Hopefully being part of the Forge will help.

PS Needless to say, today is a bit emotional for me. Sorry.

[John Harper]

First a factual correction: Talislanta has not "tanked." The fourth edition is selling very well (on its second printing, headed for third).

Second, I'm sorry you feel like the comments have been derisive. I would say they're honest. A few people have looked at what you have to offer and have said they think the setting is uninteresting. I agree. It's not to my taste. I'll explain why below. But I would suggest that you not write off The Forge as a helpful community simply because initial reactions to your work were negative. People here have taken the time to read and comment honestly on your product, something that you yourself admit that you have not gotten much of. Stick around. Ask more questions. Solicit specific feedback. The nice folks here will be happy to help out.

My reaction to the game is simply, "Meh." Elves, dwarves, goblins, trolls... various kingdoms and roughly Renaissance technology. This is pretty much the market niche of "vanilla" D&D, Forgotten Realms, Scarred Lands, Kalamar, Evernight, and many others. To me, it seems like a homebrew D&D campaign world, with new mechanics. Not my cup of tea at all. Notice that I don't say "it sucks." You actually have some cool stuff here, it's just not for everyone. The last thing I need as a gamer is another fantasy world featuring the core D&D races (plus a few new ones) and a new race/profession/stat/skill system (with 22 stats!). I don't mean to be rude, but: been there, done that.

Of course, there are plenty of gamers out there that want this very thing. It's an awfully crowded market, though, which is why some people are asking you about what makes your offering special and sets it apart from the pack. As someone that doesn't care for D&D-derived fantasy games, I can't see the appeal of Realms of Wonder versus, say, Forgotten Realms or Evernight. They're all the same to me.

I'm not trying to discourage you, though. I'm just here to say two things: 1) I for one am not the kind of gamer that is into a game like Realms of Wonder, but there are plenty of gamers that are. 2) That market is filled to bursting and you need to really stand out to attract customers and give them a reason to play your game instead of D&D and it's cousins.

[Mike Holmes]

OK, I've offended you. I'm sorry. How can I rectify the situation?

I will get to the actual system details, I promise; but I have to go run a game right now.

Later,
Mike

[ethan_greer]

PS Needless to say, today is a bit emotional for me. Sorry.

No big deal Marcus.  I realize that we can sometimes come across like a bucket of cold water in the face, especially when you so obviously care very much about your creation*.  But here's a secret: we actually care about your creation, too.  Not as much as you do, obviously - we've all got our own cauldrons to tend, after all.  But we do care, and we'd like to help you make it better.

*The attractiveness of your website is testimony to that... Very well done.