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Hey all- If you know me well, which very few here do, you may have heard me mention this "Kyuseisha" project here and there (usually on the Adept Press forums). It's now becoming its own game.

This post is regarding some rules questions I have that I'm in the middle of hammering out right now. I'm cutting out most of the background, general system notes and rules of the game to get straight to my problem (this post here is about 1/3 the size of the post I had ready to submit here).  If you have more questions about this game, PLEASE ask.

========= GAME BACKGROUND ===========

Kyuseisha (q-SEI-sha): Japanese-ish word that means "Savior" (as in JC/Messiah), but makes it plural. The game is essentially Mad Max with Kung Fu and mild psychic powers. Originally (again 3 years ago) meant to be the "Fist of the North Star RPG", the game took a new direction: The game is set a couple hundred years after a natural (asteroid), followed by a nuclear, apocalypse. Civilization is rebuilding, people are gathering to forge a new world. The characters will all eventually go down in history for making the world a better place.

========== THE SYSTEM ==========

If you squint just right, the system behind Kyuseisha looks, from afar, like Dread, Sorcerer and Risus (or FUDGE FATE) are having a three-way, with The Riddle of Steel and Universalis (!) hopping in every now and then to lube up the carnal works with Astro-glide. It's a d6 dice pool and adding system.

=========== CHARACTERS ============

This is where many of my problems and questions arise, because I see this as the heart of the system. I'm goign to skip combat in this post, as I pretty much have that all worked out.

The character sheet is composed of 5 Stats, a few derived stats, then Roles, which are all discussed here, then a few other things not discussed here like Attributes (positive and negative) and Character Contracts.

Stats: For now, the stats are Power, Technique (hand-eye, agility, grace, skill, etc), Willpower, Knowledge, and Crunch (this is the Working Title for this stat, short for "Crunchy Bits"). Crunch will basically do this: You get a certain amount of, well, let's call them "spells". You know a number of spells equal to your Crunch score. You can cast a number of spells per day up to your crunch rating without getting fatigued. Pretty straightforward.

Roles: This is where, in Risus form (or Donjon, Sorcerer, etc), you describe the main role(s) your character plays currently in his life.  They can be anything you define (although I will list a sample of ideas for beginning players, so that they can get into the system): Hunter, Guardsman, Technologist/Mechanic, Sand Griot/Loremaster, Trader, Scavenger, Ninja, etc.

You choose one Core Role.  Then, you decide which two of the above Stats best help that role.  Maybe a Loremaster is famous in various loremaster circles for his stamina in travelling far (Power) and his uncanny knowledge of tales of the past (Knowledge).  You take 10 points and divide them amongst those two traits any way you see fit. The score of your Core Role is the higher of those two attributes.

Then you choose a Second Role. This will compose those other three attributes, which again you divide 10 points amongst. Again, the score for this role is the higher of those three attributes. You can also choose a Third Role, but those rules are already worked out and don't add to the discussion here.

Just like in Risus (Donjon, FATE, Sorcerer, etc), you'll be using those roles for most of your roles as you game.  The attributes will be there as a fall-back, though, in case your role cannot be brought to bear on a given situation (at a heavy penalty, though).

I like how these Stats/Roles all look, and fit together, especially in light of the character generation process. 5 stats feels good, has the nice balance I'm looking for.

However, I have something here which I have called, for lack of a better word, "derived stat": Destiny.

Destiny is the character's impact in the overall story: It's how well he'll be remembered when he's gone, etc.

Destiny does the following:
1) Every game session, the players grab a number of d6es equal to their Destiny score, and put them in the middle of the table. During the course of the game, ANY of the players can freely draw from this pool, as many dice as they want, and add them to one of their action rolls. Once they're gone, though, that's it... until the next gaming session, that is.

2) Destiny is further broken down into things which, while squinting, look suspiciously like Spiritual Attributes from TROS. Basically they are goals that your player has for your character, as well as motivations. Things like "Found an Empire", "Destroy all the Remenants of the Evil X Clan", then things like "Greed", "Love", "Rage", etc.  Basically, imagine that you're asking a high-school student from the far future about what she remembers about your character and his deeds, "Hmmmm.... I skipped that chapter in History class, but yeah, that was the guy who killed the Evil Overlord, but at the same time was Greedy and stole a lot..."

============= DILEMMA =============

Crunch VS Destiny.
See, I love that "5-stat balance", and right now I have settled on Crunch to be the "5th stat", with Destiny set aside (I don't want to go with 6 attributes at this time).  However, I've been thinking of making Destiny the 5th stat, and setting Crunch aside.

If I make Destiny one of the 5 Main Stats, it allows the player to decide himself how famous, etc their character will become right off the bat.  Also, if it is made a high score (like for the Core Role), it can represet that the player is just simply KNOWN BY ALL as a good fighter/trapper/sand griot, irregardless of his power, knowledge, etc. However, if I go that route I kick Crunch aside, which probably means that for character generation I'll need to say something like, "OK, everyone gets 3 points of crunch", which I'm not comfortable doing- I want a diversity of The Crunch in the group. I don't want a group where Everyone is a Jedi, see?

If I keep Crunch as one of the 5 Main Stats, It allows the player to set their own "cool powerz" level, which is cool by me.  In the character's Roles, it also shows how much of an impact their "second sight", etc has in the performance of that role. If I keep this as-is, though, I'll have to kick out Destiny out of the Stats, which basically means taking out that nifty dynamic (players deciding their own amount of popularity) of the stats, and saying "everyone gets 3 points of Destiny" or whatever.

Now, instead of conceeding and making 6 Stats (I really like that balance of 5 stats), I was thinking of creative ways to let players set their own Crunch or Destiny levels, outside of the stats-juggling above, in a creative way.  Which usually means finding a way to screw players who give themselves too many points.

============ FEEDBACK POINT ============

Anyway, to that end, here's an idea I had regarding Destiny:

Keep Destiny off to the side. Allow players to put as many points into it as they wish.

Thing is, for every point they put into destiny (or every two points, or whatever), the GM makes a Counter-Destiny for that character. Maybe even keep it a secret from that player. So, for example, say that the biblical character Judas was a character in this RPG. His player took a lot of points in Destiny, saying "I will be famous for helping bring down the biblical tyrrany of the Pharicees".  The GM, on his special "Counter-Destiny" sheet, writes, "Judas will betray someone very important".

Having this kind of mechanic REALLY excites me, however I'm at a loss at the moment to come up with something that's elegant, can come up in the game (extra dice for the GM against the player, maybe), and yet not be a vice with which to sqeeze the player into making his character do something.

So, do I have something here with this Coutner-Destiny bit, or should I give up and say "Everyone gets X Destiny Points"? Advice welcome!

-Andy

ps- again, I ended up cutting a lot of meat to have something presentable without making everyone read an epic here. If you have any other questions about how the system currently works, ask away![/url]

Hey Andy,

Great game idea so far. I like it, particularly the simple character creation rules and the usage of Destiny. If you are absolutely set on this five skill balance, I think that you should make Crunch a stat, and set destiny aside. HOWEVER, I also think that somehow Destiny should be as you said, a 'derived stat'. Make it based upon the other stats. This of course could give players the opportunity to pump as much as they can into the stats which increase Destiny, so it might be a good idea to keep the Counter-Destiny idea around.

I don't really know how Counter-Destiny could be implemented, but I think that if it could be implemented properly it would make for a pretty cool game mechanic.

What about having every character start of with 0 Destiny points, and they build up over time by doing noteworthy things, and as the players do that, they make enemies or work up something to oppose them, represented by the Counter-Destiny dice against the PCs. I don't know if that works with what you are thinking, but that's all I can come up with at the moment.

Oh, and please elaborate on the Crunch stat. It sounds pretty cool. It also might help with balancing Destiny and Crunch.

Hope that helps,

Kirk

Hey Kirk, thanks for the comments!  In a day or two I'll post a link to what I was going to type up as my original post, to let people get a better feel for the game if they're interested.

Anyway:

Quote from: DumirikHOWEVER, I also think that somehow Destiny should be as you said, a 'derived stat'. Make it based upon the other stats. This of course could give players the opportunity to pump as much as they can into the stats which increase Destiny...

Yeah, one of the other things I was considering was to make Destiny based on either Stats or Roles.  Say, for example, Take the lowest (or highest) of your Roles (or Stats), and that would be your destiny score.  Else, perhaps, take the average (not elegant, but hey) of your roles, or the average of one or more stats.

QuoteI don't really know how Counter-Destiny could be implemented, but I think that if it could be implemented properly it would make for a pretty cool game mechanic.

Yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how to do this myself.

QuoteWhat about having every character start of with 0 Destiny points, and they build up over time by doing noteworthy things, and as the players do that, they make enemies or work up something to oppose them, represented by the Counter-Destiny dice against the PCs.

This is a very good idea, however there's a thing or two that I didn't clarify about the game above that is making me aim away from that kind of play (sort of a "Subjective Story XP"- which in itself is a pretty cool idea). Here are those caveats, in order of "weight":

1) Most importantly, I want to emphasize Kyuseisha to be a game to be played as one-shots and mini-campaigns.  Admittedly, the game looks like it will hold up to long-term campaigning. However, one of my design goals is to make it most appealing in the fact that it's a perfect game to run a 1-3 gaming session campaign, else a slightly longer mini-campaign.  If this is the case, then Destiny won't come into play much at all.
2) Destiny provides immediate gifts to the player and party (those spare dice), and it provides character motivation and description ("Become Leader of the Fallen Red Tribes", "Honor", etc). Starting off at zero would cut those things apart.
3) In the end, in the (admittedly, two) playtests that I've done, the players knowing full well how important their characters are in the overall scheme of things from the beginning, and where they were headed (via Destiny) led to some interesting play choices.  More on that later, though.*

QuoteOh, and please elaborate on the Crunch stat. It sounds pretty cool. It also might help with balancing Destiny and Crunch.

In terms of game background, I refer to Crunch (previously called "Zone" once, as in "In the Zone") as "Psychic Powers".  However, the feel I'm going for is more of, say, the powers from Dune: Mentat super-genious leading to natural predictive/precognitive behaivior. Or superspeed, superstrength and the like for brief moments. None of the powers have flashy "fireball" effects (in fact, there's not really telekinesis and the like, just stuff like empathy/understanding to such a degree it appears like ESP, etc).

Most of the powers (as I called them "spells", below) simply allow you to roll your Core Role or relevant Stat, Doubling your dice when you do so (like a Force Point from 'ol Star Wars d6).  Each of the powers has a different area of influence: Physical power, precognition, empathy/lie detection/"telepathy", movement/speed, etc.

There is only one power at this time (hoping to make more) that doesn't have an effect which results in doubling dice: That's what I currently call "The Mantra of Movement".  MoM basically says that your character can instantly move as far as needed, or move in an impossible way, one time per point spent. The only limit is 1) Sight or 2) Presence of another PC.

For example: Ninja jumps off a cliff, falls for 30 seconds, and lands in a puff of dust on a hard red rock.  The player spent a point of today's Crunch there, activating MoM, and the Ninja, instead of being dead, lands in a cool crouch, and springs away.

Another example: This also allows characters to bring themselves into a new scene, even though they might have been doing something else elsewhere, only needing to offer a basic explanation as to why. This happens in movies all the time.  For example: the party splits up, 2 dudes to the left, 2 to the right.  At some point, the dudes on the left get into trouble. One of the players on the right decides to help, spends a point of Crunch, and < bam > they get to appear there, and "rewrite" what happened: The two dudes on the left are hanging from their fingernails on a cliff wall, the dude from the right shows up and offers them a hand:
"I thought you went off in the other direction with Tom?"
"I had a bad feeling, so I ended up trailing the two of you. Glad I did, eh?"

That sort of thing.

The "secret" story background for Crunch is quite elaborate, involving nanotech, human physical/psychic potential, and powers "awakened" during the hardships of post-apocalypse life. But simply put, the people who lived in the generations following the disaster were put to such stress and hardship that they spontaneously developed: But only in limited amounts, and primarily only to those who trained with those powers. Like the PCs. And the baddies. :)

Thanks again, Kirk!

*For an idea of this, I'm reflecting back on what Ron said about Conan in Sorcerer and Sword, about Howard knowing full well with every story that Conan would eventually become king of the land.

Honestly, I would go with "start with 3 Destiny."  Reason being, it keeps the central destiny dice pool from getting wonky.  If you had a bunch of players who all decide to have huge destinies, that's a huge destiny pool.  If, on the other hand, none of the players gets a high destiny, that would make a miniscule destiny pool.  I see the destiny pool as being a strong metagame aspect that you'll want to be somewhat static for a starting group.  That said, my first question would be, "how does Destiny get increased?"  Ideally, I would think you'd want the player to decide how quickly a character's Destiny increases.  That way if Destiny is important to the group, the pool will grow organically from that static starting point.  If Destiny is not so important to the group, there will still be that static pool of dice that will be a part of every game.  I think if you start with a static Destiny and allow player-driven increases in Destiny, that gives you the best of both worlds.

Incidentally, I love the character creation with the roles dictating what points go into what stats.

Further information on how the characters advance in general (not just in Destiny) would be helpful to the discussion as well, I think.

Quote from: ethan_greerHonestly, I would go with "start with 3 Destiny."

Totally hear you on that issue.  It makes a lot of sense, with your explanation.  I'll say, for now, for example, "All characters start with a Destiny of 4", and leave perhaps some fiddly bit to let the player add more or less if they REALLY want it and the GM allows it.

QuoteThat said, my first question would be, "how does Destiny get increased?"

Good question.  For the most part, it doesn't. One thing I'm aiming for is totally subjective character advancement (if any at all: In most cases, character advancement just won't happen, as the game was really geared towards mini-campaigns). Sure, the character will change and grow and all that, but his stats will pretty much remain the same, with limited exceptions.

QuoteI think if you start with a static Destiny and allow player-driven increases in Destiny, that gives you the best of both worlds.

If anything, this is what I'm going for.  A sort of dialectic in the advancement process where everyone pretty much accepts that your character won't change, but with arrengement with the GM you can set up ways that your stats/numbers, as well as your Roles, can change depending on the story.

Quote
Further information on how the characters advance in general (not just in Destiny) would be helpful to the discussion as well, I think..

That was pretty much the above: For the most part, nothing changes. All advancement is subvective and up to arrangements between you and the GM.

Thanks for your compliment there, and thanks for your great feedback!

-Andy

EDIT:  While I think, after thinking it over, that I'll go ahead and keep Destiny the same for all players across the board, I'd still like feedback from eveyone on that whole "Counter-Destiny" thing.  Namely, what might make it work?  Giving the GM a counter-pool of dice to use against the players?  Having the GM (or other players) steer the course of that one chracter against his will (which can work well, as demonstrated in the Wraith RPG)...?  More on this idea, if anyone can think of more for it.

Hey all, I'm still thinking of some ways to handle (that is, actually play out) that Counter-Destiny thing, but suggestions are welcome!

If you want a better overview of the game's background, setting and system (including resolution mechanic), please feel free to check out the deluxe edition director's cut of the first post here, which I saved in a text file below:

http://www.z-builder.com/rpg/kyuseisha/forgekyu1.html

Warning: It's a doozy.
EDIT: Resaved as webpage so you all wouldn't be forced to go insane

Thanks!

-Andy

Why not allow players to decide whether to keep Destiny or Crunch as the 5th stat?

I love the examples you've given for Crunch. Reminds me of Adventure's Dramatic Editing, or that Hong Kong action RPG that got reviewed on rpg.net a couple weeks back.

You really have to find a better name for it, though. How about 'Enlightenment' or 'Spirit'?

Quote from: PalaskarWhy not allow players to decide whether to keep Destiny or Crunch as the 5th stat?

Hey man- Interesting idea.  Thanks for the feedback.

Thing is, though, I think that I'm going to be dealing with enough subjective stuff when it comes to character generation (there's more I didn't list here, like Character Contracts and Attributes), that I want some "core" that the players can easily relate to.  I think the next step for me right here is to write up a character sheet (probably tonight) and arrange all the items in a sensible way.  I'm a visual guy, so maybe that will jog my thoughts.

Quote
You really have to find a better name for it, though. How about 'Enlightenment' or 'Spirit'?

Yeah, Crunch was just the working title.  Before, for a playtest last year (when the game still looked like Sorcerer), I used "Zone" (in place of Lore).  I've also been thinking of some Japanese words, like:

Musou : "Extreme"
Musou (yes, a hominym, but the kanji are different) : "No-Thought" ("No-Conscious", actually- It refers to the reactive nature of the power- It's not like The Force, where you have to concentrate, but rather it just happens normally).

But I didn't want to confuse anyone any more than I needed to: With a goofy name like Kyuseisha (and no, in the game itself, people don't say "I'm a Kyuseisha!" or "Here comes a Kyuseisha!"), that might be hard enough to maintain.

Thing is, I think that, in character generation, I might call it something simple, like Power or Musou, but if the character takes a lot of points (3+) in it, I'll have them name the type of power it is: Martial Arts, Kung Fu, Ninjutsu, Neurocardiology, Empath, Hulk Smash!, etc

Thanks for the compliment.  Now  to hunker down and get more stuff together.

Oh, and my ears are still open on the counter-destiny thing, if anyone has any suggestions!

-Andy

Hi Andy,

Call me Sorcerer-biased, but Crunch and Knowledge sound pretty much like the same things to me, based on your description. Correct me if I'm way off base.

Best,
Ron

Hey man- As always, thanks for checking it out!

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Call me Sorcerer-biased, but Crunch and Knowledge sound pretty much like the same things to me, based on your description. Correct me if I'm way off base.

My description above is probably to blame.

Knowledge, here, represents "Education": You know the lore of the ancients ("This used to be a great city... Until the Great Bombs fell"), you are familiar with the current politics of far-away tribes/villages, you can recognize poisonous plants or dangerous areas from your studies, or you can understand the gist of various forgotten written languages. That sort of thing.

Crunch, here, is the potential to extend your mind, body and spirit beyond normal human levels. In this setting (unlike, say, Sorcerer), you can't pick it up from study alone. It's usually physical or spiritual training (Tibetan/Shao Lin monk style), combined with a certain amount of innate potential ("midichloreans")

That's the difference in a nutshell. Knowledge, above, doesn't give you any help when doing superhuman tasks (although you may use Knowledge to recognize a telltale power: "Only the secret monks of the Red Sands know that manuver!"), while Crunch doesn't lead your character to know anything special about the world around her- You can't use Crunch to, say, descipher ancient scrolls, recognize others' powers, know anything about some Crunch-using cult or temple, etc.

================

A footnote on stats/attributes in this game, and another nod to Sorcerer:

So, usually in RPGs we have "mental" stats. I didn't find "Intelligence" or "Perception" particularly fitting to this game.

I'm leaving the possibility of allowing players to make smart characters, however, as something called an "Attribute".  Attributes are basically "advantages" or "drawbacks", and they allow you to add +1 die when a certain situation occours (or subtracts 1). Ex: If someone had a 'Price' ala Sorcerer, it would be an Attribute in this game.  I see each player with just one (or possibly two) good attributes, and one "bad" attribute.

Hey all (who have been following this thread).  Since I came to a decision on that Destiny issue, I think this thread has pretty much dried up- but if anyone has further questions, or suggestions on how to run or incorporate (or just "Hey, have you thought about doing THIS?") regarding "Counter-Destiny", let me know.

Reason I'm posting: I just spent a little while whipping up a character sheet for this weekend's Con demo.  If you're interested in seeing how the stats/roles fit together, I think this sheet does a good job of subconsciously summarizing it:

http://www.z-builder.com/rpg/kyuseisha/kyucharsheet.jpg

Thanks!

Quote from: Andy Kitkowski
Reason I'm posting: I just spent a little while whipping up a character sheet for this weekend's Con demo.  If you're interested in seeing how the stats/roles fit together, I think this sheet does a good job of subconsciously summarizing it:

http://www.z-builder.com/rpg/kyuseisha/kyucharsheet.jpg

Oooh, neat. Gotta print those up on rice paper. Can you do that in a printer?

Mike

Okay, here's another crazy idea...How about merging Crunch and Destiny? I think this would give more of a Matrix feel....imagine the PCs learn that they are ALL the "chosen one"?

Hmm, okay, didn't like Enlightenment or Spirit? How about "Mushin?"

I'll go check out your game now.

I gotta say, I love your ideas of kickers which happen in the background regardless of PC actions, and the "grey areas" idea. Can I borrow them for the latest revision of my house system, Signature?

Actually, Signature already does something like this with its Carry-Over Traits. Basically, these are Traits (NPCs, personality attributes, anything) that are carried over from session to session. More Carry-Over Traits, the more of a "soap opera" feel. Less Carry-Over Traits, the more of a episodic feel.

Signature can be found at:
http://www.meant2be.150m.com/44index.html

Unfortunately, I have no home internet access, and haven't updated it recently. The posted version is, I believe, 4.8, while I'm working on 4.10 now.

As for the Destiny/Counter-Destiny thing, after reading your game, I'd totally go for Counter-Destiny if you want a strong Narrative bent to your game.

Hey, thanks for the feedback, man!

Unfortunately, I'm at a Con all this weekend (It's 1:30 now, and I run a game at 9:00 AM this morning), so I prob won't have time to respond properly until Monday.  Sorry about the wait, but I will reread and comment on your suggestions.  I will also post playtest feedback (if the session goes down) when I get a chance.

-Andy