More on initiative and aborts

[Jeffrey Straszheim]

On page 105 in the Sorcerer text we have

... if a character is acted already but is then hit in combat, he or she simply rolls full Stamina to defend, including any modifiers. However, if he or she has not yet acted, the character has two options.

* He or she may choose to suck up the attack [rolling one die] ...

* He or she may defend actively, using full Stamina ... [however   forcing] the character to abort ...

This is, of course, the famous abort rule.  It clearly mentions Stamina, thus presumably excluding Will based defences, and so on.  However, from reading this forum, as well as the text in Sex & Sorcery, it is clear that Ron intends this rule to apply more generally. This, however, leaves me confused about some specific cases.

1. Look over the demon ability Confuse.  The text says to match the demon's Power vs. the target's Will.  If the demon succeeds the target loses his next action "either later in that round or in the next round."  How does this interact with the abort rule?  Say the demon is using Confuse, and the target swinging his sword. Furthermore, assume the demon has rolled higher (using its Power) than the target.  Now, which of the following applies?

[*] The target may abort, losing his action this round, and roll full Will. If he wins he's fine (but has given up his action).  If he fails he loses his action next round also.  Or, he may suck up the attack and risk only losing his action this round.  So, sucking up is always the right choice here, which seems weird to me.
[*] Perhaps the abort rule doesn't apply in this case, and the target will always get to roll his full Will.
[*] Or something else?
[/list:u]

2. This next example is less about the abort rule, and more about the "one roll to rule them all" initiative system.  Say a demon has decided to boost its mater's Stamina this round.  Which of the following applies?

[*] The boost takes effect at the start of the round, and the sorcerer gets the extra dice right away for his main roll.
[*] The demon rolls its Power to determine when the boost takes effect.  If after its master's action, it will boost his action next round.  If before its master's action, it will boost his action this round, which allows the master to immediately add some extra dice to his roll.  His action may now take place earlier than it would have, but not before the demon.
[*] Same as above, but the order of action does not change.
[*] The effect takes place late in the round, and will only effect rolls next round.
[*] Something else?
[/list:u]

3. The Fast ability lets the user use the demon's power rather than Stamina to "determining actions in a combat round."  Does this simply replace, in all ways, the character's Stamina for combat?  Does it apply to defense as well as action?  Does it only apply to order of action, requiring a separate roll for effect?

Thanks in advance.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Jeffrey,

It's a banner day for Sorcerer rules! I have to say, it's way easier to answer these at a convention, holding a handful of dice, then in text form. Let's see how I do.

1. Look over the demon ability Confuse. The text says to match the demon's Power vs. the target's Will. If the demon succeeds the target loses his next action "either later in that round or in the next round." How does this interact with the abort rule? Say the demon is using Confuse, and the target swinging his sword. Furthermore, assume the demon has rolled higher (using its Power) than the target. Now, which of the following applies?

- The target may abort, losing his action this round, and roll full Will. If he wins he's fine (but has given up his action). If he fails he loses his action next round also. Or, he may suck up the attack and risk only losing his action this round. So, sucking up is always the right choice here, which seems weird to me.

- Perhaps the abort rule doesn't apply in this case, and the target will always get to roll his full Will.

- Or something else?

I'll start by explaining the text - the "either ... or" you're quoting is there to account for the fact, depending on who rolls highest, that the target of the Confuse may either have gone already in this round, or has not gone yet. Since in your example, the demon has rolled higher, your interpretation is correct. No matter what, this guy is losing his action this round unless his one-die "take it" roll beats the demon's highest die.

I'm not sure why that seems weird. Confuse, in this case, is acting very much like a blow with an axe - if it's coming in faster than whatever it is you were trying to do, you have to deal with it.

2. This next example is less about the abort rule, and more about the "one roll to rule them all" initiative system. Say a demon has decided to boost its mater's Stamina this round. Which of the following applies?

- The boost takes effect at the start of the round, and the sorcerer gets the extra dice right away for his main roll.

- The demon rolls its Power to determine when the boost takes effect. If after its master's action, it will boost his action next round. If before its master's action, it will boost his action this round, which allows the master to immediately add some extra dice to his roll. His action may now take place earlier than it would have, but not before the demon.

- Same as above, but the order of action does not change.

- The effect takes place late in the round, and will only effect rolls next round.

- Something else?

The answer is your third option - I think. Let me start from the beginning and explain it my way, because Boost is way more risky in these circumstances than people think, and I consider it to be the most mis-played rule in the game. It is often interpreted to be the "currency-breaker" like similar abilities are in other games, and it's not.

All right, to start, the demon rolls Power to see when the Boost occurs, along with everyone else taking their actions (this assumes the demon is not being ordered to Boost, but is fully committed to doing so already). The value of its highest die rolled determines when the bonus dice "hit."

Let's say the demon rolls higher than the person it's Boosting. Great! That character's action occurs when it would have occurred (set by the dice that player rolled), but the demon's dice (which are sitting right there on the table) are now considered part of that roll. See how that works? The player's dice are now better, by definition, then they were, and better than that character's place in the line-up would have indicated. Just how you'd like a Boost to work.

But let's say the demon rolls lower than the person it's Boosting. Damn. The Boost hits after the character has taken his action. Not only is it "wasted" in terms of that action, the highest die is usually not stellar. But regardless, if the next round continues on in the altercation, that Boost does apply to the character's next roll if he or she is using the right score. Just leave those dice sittin' where they are, and when the character rolls again, they get added in there. In many cases, they're still a benefit.

All of the above leads most people in my games to request Boosts before the "everyone goes for their guns" moment, so as to enjoy the benefit of the extra dice immediately. That's risky, though, because it might lead to a wasted Boost (and a hungry demon) if the character has jumped the gun and no particular altercation ensues. If the guns are out already, so to speak, then you're stuck with rolling the Power as described above.

I usually play demons with Boost to have pretty good instincts about when to hit their masters with an unasked-for Boost, if the demon is scared or otherwise determined to get through the upcoming altercation alive.

3. The Fast ability lets the user use the demon's power rather than Stamina to "determining actions in a combat round." Does this simply replace, in all ways, the character's Stamina for combat? Does it apply to defense as well as action? Does it only apply to order of action, requiring a separate roll for effect?

See this thread: Questions on Fast and Parasite Stamina. Let me know whether that answers the question.

Best,
Ron

[Jeffrey Straszheim]

I'm not sure why that seems weird. Confuse, in this case, is acting very much like a blow with an axe - if it's coming in faster than whatever it is you were trying to do, you have to deal with it.

Well, it seems less weird when you explain it like that.  However, the fact that choosing to abort leaves you worse off is, well, at least odd.  Anyhow, I see what you're saying.


Regarding Boost

I actually like the way you handle it.  I never though of using the demon's power roll as both the order and the effect of the Boost. Cool.

See this thread: Questions on Fast and Parasite Stamina. Let me know whether that answers the question.

Yup, that did it.

Thanks.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Jeffrey,

Lemme run just a bit further down the road with this one:

the fact that choosing to abort leaves you worse off is, well, at least odd.

It might be worse, and it might be better.

Choosing to abort: roll your Will - if you succeed, you get a nice solid action for the following round (yes, your upcoming action for this round is gone).

Choosing to abort: roll your Will - if you fail, you lose not only the action you aborted, but also your upcoming action next round. (Worst outcome; sucks to be you)

Choosing not to abort: roll your one die - if you succeed, you keep your upcoming action and are all set for next round too. (Best outcome; thumb nose at demon)

Choosing not to abort: roll your one die - if you fail, you lose your upcoming action this round but are all set for next round.

Since the worst outcome occurs when you fail with lots of dice, and the best outcome occurs when you succeed with only one die, these four possibilities work out well in play.

I see your point that the best outcome resides within not aborting, but that's OK. Nothing about the abort-option is intended always to make it the best option; "best defense is a good offense" and all that.

Best,
Ron