Gears & Spears (A little side project)

[Jasper]

Well heroism is relative.  For a small tribe, going out and successfully hunting down some good sources of joice could be an epic struggle that saves the tribe from extinction; the entire tribe would await the hunter's return anxiously, and afterward the bards would sing his praises, recording what would otherwise have been a simple deed as something incredibly grandiose -- maybe in the future, it becomes seen as a defining moment in the tribe's history.  

One of the things I like in the initial write-up was the concept of collective belief and myth actually exagerating an onik's actions into a larger-than-life scale.  I have no idea how you'd achieve that effect mechanically...maybe have some way of defining actions in terms of their importance to the tribe, and then giving bonuses based on that?  Maybe the resolution mechanic could have a "dramatic" and an "ordinary" switch, or rather a sliding-scale between the two extremes.

[anonymouse]

Some thoughts:

* I think every player's onik should be part of the same tribe, and creating the tribe part of character creation.

* I like the idea of piecemeal shells. I think finding a complete shell would be a rare and wondrous thing.

* I'd like it if other players built each others' shells:

Michael says, "I'd like a tough shell!"
Daniel and Alex do their best - no further input allowed - to make what they consider to be a tough shell.

* Part of tribe creation involves determining what parts are available to build shells with. All shells are built from this pool. Consider this the "Lego kit" -- you get X number of pieces, varying amounts of parts A-E, and it's up to the players to divvy them up.

[Daniel Solis]

I'll try to reply to everyone's comments in one post. Watch out, this is a long one.

It seems to me that one of the cool things about robots, especially human service robots (which the obiks originally were, right?) is that they come in all shapes and sizes.  Therefore I worry about the idea of having one "species."

When I visualize a group of obiks, I see them as wildly diverse in appearance, but functioning as a unit.

I was initially interested in physically varying oniks (not 'obiks,' by the way). I thought it'd be neat to have little flying oniks and big tough-looking oniks and wirey spindly oniks. I think those things are just cosmetic though, if you want your character to look like that, go ahead. If you want the traits to be different, then just get different traits. I see no need to complicate things with components and whatnot.

The following castes exist among the obik:

(snip)

Good stuff, but I'd still keep the castes as a trait. Maybe have a step where you choose two roles you perform in your village. One is a secondary trait, the other tertiary. The explanations of the castes are just descriptions of the situations in which the traits would be relevant.

For example: "Being a bard is relevant when you need to remember an obscure portion of history or mythology, when you need to memorize something, and when you need to exaggerate."

I prefer single traits making several actions possible over requiring a set of very focused traits to get a certain title.

I like the idea of them being able to scavenge batteries from ancient ruins, though

That is kind of neat. Hm.

How about this:  Every time you have a Complication, you lose 1 Juice?

This sounds fairly reasonable as an optional rule. It makes complications feel like more of a thing to be avoided.

Again, this is more what I would do with the, rather than what you have said you want to do with the game.  I think of the Obiks and I would rather play their tough day-to-day struggle for survival than completely-over-the-top heroes.

That sounds more like a difference in playstyle. I had originally thought about making the gritty, survivalist adventure the center of play, but the tales of mythic heroes seemed to have more long-term appeal, for me anyway. I'll try to work in some options for those who want a low-key game.

Choose a frame.  Light frames are faster (and drain less juice / day?), but heavier frames hold more juice and can have more peripherals.

Choose peripherals -- movement method, manipulators, sensors, battery, engines, other kewl powerz.  Peripherals either control basic stats like juice capacity (battery) and burn rate (engine) or give specific, incontravertible powers (legs mean you can walk, hands mean you can lift things, jump jets mean you can jump so far.)

Eh. That's the sort of system that turns me off about most settings involving robots and other super-technology. There's no reason, in my mind, to be so meticulous as to explicitly say you have hands to lift things or legs for walking. If you can walk, you can walk, be it by tank treads, legs, or hover-plates, the method is purely cosmetic.

This is specifically why I went with a tribal fantasy setting, so I wouldn't have to deal with the how's and why's of the technology. I'm not much of a gearhead, as you can probably tell.

Black vs. Green Trees

I really, really dig this idea. Mainly because it keeps in mind that as far as oniks are concerned, there is little distinction between the technological and the magical. "Of course these trees can talk, why wouldn't they?

I like Ben's Frame (light vs. heavy) idea, and I think that, without too much trouble, it can be expanded to other potential components (and perhaps "shinelinks" simply harvest mythical components from their dead onik ancestors?).  Components could include:

sensors
memory
recall
strength
reflexes
motor control
intelligence

That's effectively taking the traits from a dead character, which is entirely doable. The actual removal of a physical component could just be a symbolic in-game act, noted in a character's mythos.

6.8.12: It was the end of battle, the ruins of Gerhardi village lay in a smoking heap.
6.8.13: Erhath and the other warriors left the fallen enemy behind them as they began the journey home.
6.8.14: Lurshuk stayed behind a moment, surveyed the scene and found the body of its old mentor, Frishk of the Sharp Spear, dead by enemy hands.
6.8.15: Lurshuk took Frishk's body.
6.8.16: On the night of their journey, Lurshuk and Erhath enacted the right of shinelink, each taking part of Frishk's shell and merging it with their own.
6.8.17: The shine of Frishk of the Sharp Spear is now part of Lurshuk and Erhath.

In game terms, Lurshuk and Erhath now have the mythic trait "Sharp Spear," which, as described by Frishk's player, is relevant in combat situations when using a spear.

I'm kinda stuck on the idea of a circle of life, with factories being part of it.  They'd churn out the mechanical "animals" that are hunted for their parts (and their shine).  Scrap metal would eventually be carried away by some sort of Animal You Do Not Hunt, which would bring it to the factory for reprocessing.

I'm seeing some tribes not believing in the sleeping gods at all, but instead worshipping the "metal gods." (Insert heavy metal band joke here.) They hunt down other oniks, offering the bodies as sacrifice. In return, the metal gods don't rise up and crush the villages. No one knows if the metal gods can actually do this, but no one really wants to test the theory either.

Some sort of solar power makes sense, even if it's tertiary.  Some sort of "they get 1 juice a day as long as they sit there and do NOTHING, and are hit by sunlight."  That's nice and small enough that players should be very happy when they come across a meal.  Either that or just never, ever use fetishes.

Beyond that, I like the idea of scavenging ancient batteries (or "places of power" where there's even capacitors).  That shouldn't be common though, more like the subject of some great quest.  "We need more juice, we're dying, rumor has it..." yadda yadda.

Both very good points. I'll go with the very miniscule solar power idea, but under the heavy restrictions you mentioned. It could be a sort of hibernation. I also like the idea of an onik getting a signal from beneath the earth, digging a bit, then finding a crumpled little power cell. Too depleted to be of any use, but a sign that there could be a larger deposit nearby.

I think Ben's suggestion for building a tribe is a very good one, especially since these things are presumably all over the planet, and it seems silly to design only a few tribes for players to choose from.  If you haven't already (and maybe this is where Ben has gotten some inspiration?) you should read Ork World: generating the tribe, and the tribe's place in the world will really effect what kind of game you play.

How about I provide guidelines for people to make their own tribes and include several sample tribes whose creation follows those guidelines? The creation of a tribe could follow the same poem/history as character creation. Every tribe has it's own little mythos and its own traits from which a tribe member can choose.

I'm not sure how keen I am on defined parts (the Strength parts, the Movement parts, et cetera), given the resolution mechanic. I'd like to leave character traits completely in the realm of the myth/history.

I also can't see how day-to-day struggle would be nearly as interesting as being a tribe-hero would be... unless said daily struggle involved being a hero full-time. In which case the point's moot.

No argument here.

Well heroism is relative.  For a small tribe, going out and successfully hunting down some good sources of joice could be an epic struggle that saves the tribe from extinction; the entire tribe would await the hunter's return anxiously, and afterward the bards would sing his praises, recording what would otherwise have been a simple deed as something incredibly grandiose -- maybe in the future, it becomes seen as a defining moment in the tribe's history.  

One of the things I like in the initial write-up was the concept of collective belief and myth actually exagerating an onik's actions into a larger-than-life scale.  I have no idea how you'd achieve that effect mechanically...maybe have some way of defining actions in terms of their importance to the tribe, and then giving bonuses based on that?  Maybe the resolution mechanic could have a "dramatic" and an "ordinary" switch, or rather a sliding-scale between the two extremes.

I'm not sure if a system could or should go into that sort of territory. It seems like more of decision for the GM to make about how important his players' actions were in the grand scheme of things.

Like you described, an otherwise mediocre hunt for a tribe on its last legs could earn a hero the sobriquet "hunter," forever remembered for its astounding ability to track and kill game. It doesn't matter that the myth is an exaggerated half-truth, it's what keeps hope alive. It's what makes society function.

* I think every player's onik should be part of the same tribe, and creating the tribe part of character creation.

That gives a good reason for the characters to know each other and an in-game way to have everyone decide the style of game they want to play. If the game is going to be heavy combat, the group will make a tribe built around conquest and empire-building. If the game is about subtle tribal politicking, they'll make a tribe with intricate social webs and etiquette.

I like the idea of piecemeal shells. I think finding a complete shell would be a rare and wondrous thing.

Yeah, that's pretty much a cosmetic decision as far as character creation goes. As far as finding a complete shell, that would be another pretty cool idea for a quest. I don't know how I'd re-inforce that specialness within the system though.

* I'd like it if other players built each others' shells:

Michael says, "I'd like a tough shell!"
Daniel and Alex do their best - no further input allowed - to make what they consider to be a tough shell.

Hm... It's an interesting thought, but I think I'd trust players to choose the traits for the character they'd want to play.

* Part of tribe creation involves determining what parts are available to build shells with. All shells are built from this pool. Consider this the "Lego kit" -- you get X number of pieces, varying amounts of parts A-E, and it's up to the players to divvy them up.

Hmm... perhaps an augmentation of the tribal creation idea I just proposed. Every player chooses the type of tribe in which they'd like to play, discuss it a bit, find a comprimise that fits within a 15-line tribe mythos. Maybe.

Thank you so much for all the input, everyone! Please, please keep it coming. :)

[anonymouse]

The choose-parts bit was mostly just an idea on implementing Ben's and Lxndr's desire for a more crunchy robot, simulating the idea that you're not exactly born, but made -- your parents (players surrogating in this role) build your shell as best they can.

But if you don't want to go that route (okay with me!) then no need for it. =)

[Daniel Solis]

Yeah, like I said, some parts of the system place more importance on the mythic hero aspect than the robot aspect. There are other mecha-style games where crunchy robo-construction is of more importance, I wanted this to be different, y'know?

[Lxndr]

I'd like to see a non-crunchy (creamy?) choose-your-parts system.

I don't know if it can be done, but if it can, it'd add a lot to your game, imho.  A crunchy one would definitely subtract, and if a creamy one can't be made, you're better off without one (as you and mouse agree).

Perhaps your traits system is that already...

The Black vs. Green trees idea still rocks.  

The removal of a dead onik's parts can sometimes mean a quest to find the body of the dead onik, so you can GET their parts (and thus, their mythic trait).  Good idea?  I also imagine the WRONG person taking the dead onik's parts, and stealing the mythic trait.  There's enough in myths of the wrong person getting the magical item...

So in addition to the factory circle of life, you have onik sacrificers?  I really, really like the idea of a factory circle of life, as a way to get new parts if nothing else.

Tribe Creation = good thing
Samle Tribes also = good thing
Characters being part of the same tribe = good thing

well, that's my rambling.  nite!

[Daniel Solis]

The removal of a dead onik's parts can sometimes mean a quest to find the body of the dead onik, so you can GET their parts (and thus, their mythic trait).  Good idea?  I also imagine the WRONG person taking the dead onik's parts, and stealing the mythic trait.  There's enough in myths of the wrong person getting the magical item...

While the idea of removing body parts as part of trait-trading, I think it removes some of the importance of the role of shinelinks. Perhaps taking parts without being a shinelink reduces all absorbed traits to tertiary status.. That way you've still got the mix 'em up style of ability-swapping, but it's not so common that characters' identities become too diffuse. If a character gets a new trait by harvesting a body, it still has to be readjusted to the new host via normal upgrading. Even then, it won't reach mythic trait status, that still remains the province of dead heroes and their inheritors.

Tribe Creation = good thing
Samle Tribes also = good thing
Characters being part of the same tribe = good thing

This whole "everyone thinks of their own tribe, gets together and finds a comprimise" concept may be a tad too nebulous to be really usable. It feels like someone in the group would always get short-changed and be stuck playing a game they didn't want to play. I suppose that's the nature of comprimise, but it'd be a shame if a bad experience with contradictory play-goals reflected poorly on the game itself.

On another note, it might be fun to have a page or two filled up with name-elements so folks can randomly generate cool-sounding tribe/character names. Also, a primer on onik language would be cool to get that Mad Max-slang dialogue just right.

For now, here's a...

Tentative Tribe Creation Process
All of the members of your group are part of the same tribe and all tribes have a mythos that gives it its reputation among the other tribes of the world. This process describes the important parts of the history and culture of your tribe and how reflect on your onik's traits.

Each player, including the GM, writes up 15 lines of a tribe's mythos on their own. Once completed, the lines are placed together. They can be arranged to make more of a narrative, but that's not of great importance. Mythologies aren't known for their cohesive plots, after all. The collected pieces should be editted down to a condensed, 40-line tribal mythos.

Membership in a tribe grants access to certain abilities as a result of growing up in that society. For example, a warlike tribe would have a variety of combative traits, while a scholarly tribe may know more of agriculture and magic.

As a group, highlight 10 words or phrases of the tribal mythos that are of particular importance. These are the tribe's traits and should represent the notable moments in the tribe's history or uniquely pervasive elements of its society.

Tentatively Revised Character Creation

Step 1: Character Mythos
In six lines, begin your character's mythos by detailing any notable acts or characteristics in one sentence per line. Number this introductory passage 0.0.1 through 0.0.6

Step 2: Traits
Next, underline three words or phrases in your character's introductory passage. These are your character's traits and should be things that describe what your character knows, can do or how it acts. Place the most important trait in the primary column of your character sheet. Write in the second most important in the secondary column. Write the least important in the tertiary column.

Step 3: Tribal Traits
Choose three traits from your tribe and place one in each column of the character sheet, one primary, one secondary, one tertiary. These reflect your role within the tribe and how growing up in it has affected you personally.

Step 4: Passions
Finally, choose three passions, a primary, secondary and tertiary. These should describe your character's beliefs, ethics, or general emotional state. Passions are what separate you from the general populace. While everyone has emotions, your character's are so compelling that they'll compel you into acts that will be forever remembered in the songs of your people.

Step 5: Finishing Touches
You begin play with one mythos token, two dots in shine and 10 juice dots with a maximum capacity of 15.

[anonymouse]

This is me going off of what you've written; can at least give you an idea whether we're going in the right direction, what needs to be explained more, et cetera.

(I'd post a picture of the character, but I'm still trying to work out a good right arm assembly to hold its spear, and I have to find the camera anyway.)

0.0.1: Rotu laughed like a boota and mocked the angry spirit.
0.0.2: The spirit flew at the young onik with red-sun claws.
0.0.3: Rotu took his spear and faced down the spirit.
0.0.4: The spear drove deep into the spirit's body, which disappeared.
0.0.5: The onik looked around at the destruction the spirit had caused.
0.0.6: And it lifted the giant boulder and freed the Shaman.

Primary Trait: Lifted the giant boulder with its lifting-arm.
Secondary Trait: Owns a spear.
Tertiary Trait: Has a laugh that sounds like a boota's.

Primary Passion: Protect the tribe.
Secondary Passion: Learn the Shaman's ways.
Tertiary Passion: See the Big Water.

I skipped on the tribe mythos and traits; that's really a group project. I had enough trouble just coming up with an interesting 6-line bit!

Does the mythos have to detail one event like that? It seems like it'd work best that way. Or, it'd be the start of a poem that's sort of extolling virtues:

0.0.1: At Toa-Ia Rock, Rotu slew the Innda Spirit.
0.0.2: It has a mighty left arm.
0.0.3: The Shaman was saved by its actions.

..and so on.. Dunno, I like the single-event mythos better. But could just be me.

Setting thought: looking back over the Future is Wild site, I remembered that the "center" of the continent was pretty much one huge-ass desert. That's just begging for ruins, monuments, and sources of spirits. I keep picturing these huge spectral dragons (more Asian or South American than European) lurking at the heart of the burning sands. . .

[mrteapot]

I've already thought of some memes present in a few tribes concerning magic.

Meme: Rituals draw power from sleeping gods, lengthening their slumber, thus postponing the time when they'd re-awaken. So if you're going to use magic, use fetishes. That's the less sacreligious way to do it.

Meme: Fetishes draw power from an onik's juice and shine, the blessings of the sleeping gods and a perversion of their precious gift. Rituals are the proper way to do magic.

Meme: All magic is inherently sacreligious any way you look at it. Focus on the real, the physical, use the properties of the natural world and you'll find wonders on par and even superior to those of magic.

And one tribe that has Meme: the physical is an illusory shell.  Magic is the true path to reaching and awaking the sleeping gods.

[Daniel Solis]

Primary Trait: Lifted the giant boulder with its lifting-arm.
Secondary Trait: Owns a spear.
Tertiary Trait: Has a laugh that sounds like a boota's.

This reminds me to add a step that I'll also be implementing in PUNK's character creation. Since part of the task resolution is determining the dramatic relevance of a trait, I'm including that definition in character creation itself. For every trait, describe a situation where it's beneficially relevant and describe a situation where it's negatively relevant. This step hopefully gives the player and GM a sense of how far he can stretch the traits' relevance in play.

Primary Passion: Protect the tribe.
Secondary Passion: Learn the Shaman's ways.
Tertiary Passion: See the Big Water.

The positive/negative dramatic relevance is part of the system already, no need for clarification there, I think. Hm. Wait a minute, I did write the passions' dramatic relevance, right? I'll have to double-check that.

I skipped on the tribe mythos and traits; that's really a group project. I had enough trouble just coming up with an interesting 6-line bit!

If the character mythos bit was too difficult, do you think the tribe mythos step should be eased up a tad?

Does the mythos have to detail one event like that? It seems like it'd work best that way.

Yup, I agree.

Setting thought: looking back over the Future is Wild site, I remembered that the "center" of the continent was pretty much one huge-ass desert. That's just begging for ruins, monuments, and sources of spirits. I keep picturing these huge spectral dragons (more Asian or South American than European) lurking at the heart of the burning sands. . .

I'll get cracking on the beasties once everything else has solidified.

And one tribe that has Meme: the physical is an illusory shell.  Magic is the true path to reaching and awaking the sleeping gods.

Ooh. Good one. By any chance, are you the same Mr. Teapot as on the Unknown Armies mailing list?

[anonymouse]

Primary Trait: Lifted the giant boulder with its lifting-arm.
Secondary Trait: Owns a spear.
Tertiary Trait: Has a laugh that sounds like a boota's.

This reminds me to add a step that I'll also be implementing in PUNK's character creation. Since part of the task resolution is determining the dramatic relevance of a trait, I'm including that definition in character creation itself. For every trait, describe a situation where it's beneficially relevant and describe a situation where it's negatively relevant. This step hopefully gives the player and GM a sense of how far he can stretch the traits' relevance in play.

I'd definitely need to see examples of what you're talking about here, and with Passions, re: positive/negative. I think a good "sample character generation" monologue that goes along the rules makes-or-breaks a chargen system.

If the character mythos bit was too difficult, do you think the tribe mythos step should be eased up a tad?

Difficult to say; ask again later. *shakes 8 ball* -- Well, I think this just needs to see playtest. It'd be a quick fix, too; if everyone sits around for half an hour staring at the table/screen and saying, "Uh.. and then.. you know.. stuff happened.." then you can jump in and say, "Okay, let's just go with a 4-line thing from people and get this show on the road."

[Sylus Thane]

I just have to say Gobi, Gears and Spears is turning out to be really cool. I like everything i'm seeing so far. Keep up the good work. Can't ever get enough praise for a good job.

Sylus

[Daniel Solis]

Thanks, Sylus! :)

I'd definitely need to see examples of what you're talking about here

Excerpt from an upcoming revision to PUNK:

Making DIY Traits
Beginning players and even old pros could still get stumped by a cleverly named, but obscure-sounding trait. Here's a guideline for helping defining just what sort of situations in which your funky little trait is relevant. This is a crucial part of character creation and can make or break a group's enjoyment of their game.
  The worst thing you can do is be so vague in the name of your trait that your character could be good at anything he does.
  Lucky for you, this simple two-step process is designed to make traits that are interesting and let the entire group know just what your character can do.

Naming the Trait
This is the easy part. Just think of something to describe your character's personality, abilities or body of knowledge.

Defining the Trait
As you know, when a trait is beneficially relevant to a task, you get a die added to the dice pool. When it's relevant in a negative way, you lose a die from the pool. Here's how you can define the relevance of your trait in both beneficial and disadvantageous circumstances.

Positive Dramatic Relevance
In what situations are your trait a boon? If your trait is primary, you may describe three such situations. If secondary, you may describe two. If tertiary, you may describe one.

Negative Dramatic Relevance
Now describe how or why possessing this trait would be a hindrance. If a primary trait, write two negatives. If secondary, write one. If tertiary, write none.

Three positives have two negatives, two positives have one negative, and one positive has no negatives.

Example Traits
Louisville Slugger-Fu
+ Using a baseball bat as a melee weapon
+ Playing baseball
-  Plays baseball in a most unsportsmanlike manner

"Come with me if you want to live."
+ Winning the trust of frightened strangers

Bullet Time
+ Incredible accuracy in a mass gunfight
+ Difficult to aim at with a gun
+ Jump away from an explosion safely
- Less effective when fighting one-on-one
- Only works if feeling self-confident

and with Passions, re: positive/negative. I think a good "sample character generation" monologue that goes along the rules makes-or-breaks a chargen system.

Passions are dramatically relevant when you choose to or to not follow them. I'll work on streamlining the actual mechanical effects of this.

An example character creation or two is the next step in seeing what needs to be trimmed out of the process.

I'm also thinking about revising task resolution a bit. For one thing, it's based on the PUNK system only because I didn't want to think of a new resolution just yet. Now I'm thinking about it and I don't particularly like all the number-crunching associated with big fistfuls of d10s.

Essentially the dice roll here determines not the success of an action, but who gets to decide the outcome of the action. While the control of a character is always the province of a player, the GM can still introduce a complication. It is then the player's opportunity to close out that bit of drama, to narrate the rest of his actions to accomodate that outcome. This reduces the "whiff factor" a bit, I think. Even if the GM says your badass spear-wielding hero does something as silly as drop his weapon, you can still cleverly control the narration to minimize this unfortunate event.

So since it's just a toss up between a player or GM controlling the outcome, a 50/50 split, why not use coins? Instead of dice, you get coins. When you flip them, heads means you control the outcome and tails means the other guy controls it. When you have several coins in your pool, having more heads than tails means you control the outcome. The player always wins ties.

Casting coins seemed like a nice way to remove the left brain from task resolution. This way it's all straight comparisons instead of calculations. If coins don't work for most people, dice could still be used where one half is considered heads and the other tails. Thoughts?

[W. Don]

Yo gobi,

Holy crap, Daniel. Someone should lock you up in the madhouse. ;-)

I think this "side-project" of yours rocks. I'm still absorbing all the stuff you've put out and I dearly wish I had a little more time to go over things in detail. I hope to do so by err next month -- way to caught up in real life at the moment. Just wanted to tell ya: Forge on, brotha!

"Gears & Spears" sounds like a great title. Might you consider something like "Tick-Tock Tales"?

- W.

[Daniel Solis]

Okay, you guys are gonna give me a big head here. Thank you for the compliments. :)

"Gears & Spears" sounds like a great title. Might you consider something like "Tick-Tock Tales"?

Ooh! "Tick-Tock Tribes"?