HELP: How can I keep all these types of magic straight?

[Scripty]

So, I'm working my way through my copy of HeroQuest. I've made it through the Narration chapter and I'm up to the HeroQuest chapter. Work has been a bear this week, so I'm having to read it whenever I can in 15-30 minute intervals during my time-off. I've also been testing out things like the Contests and boosts, etc., when time has permitted. As an aside, my wife is SOOOOO patient. She even tried out space combat in WotC's first edition Star Wars with me once. Once.

My big hurdle right now is grokking all the different types of magic. IIRC, there are affinities/feats, spirits/charms and fetishes, grimoires/spells. And, of course, common magic which seems to be a mish-mash of all three. This isn't a complaint. Personally, I think the various forms of magic are really awesome. The Animists are the best representation of shamanic magic I've ever seen in a rpg and the Liturgists, Congregations, etc., bring what we would call *monotheism* into the forefront as no game I've ever seen before.

Personally, I think my brain is slowly turning into concrete and that the magic chapters are my Extended Contest to resist this effect. An augment would be tres appreciated about now...

Specifically, I'm unclear as to how all these types of magic work differently in the mechanics. For instance, I just read on the Yahoo group that affinities only augment an existing ability. In order to *do* something with an affinity, you have to improvise (or have) a feat. Perhaps it was the way the layout was between affinities and feats (with the affinity getting the "17" and the feat getting the "+2") but, for some reason, I had this backwards in my head. So, now I really feel like I'm back on square one.

I plan to go back through the magic section and detail how each type of magic differs from the others in the mechanics. But I'm concerned that I might still miss something or another, is there any simple way of keeping the differences between the forms of magic straight?

I have the setting info down (I think), such as Animists bargain with spirits and pull them into charms and fetishes, etc., and there are a lot of instances where the different types of magic all seem similar mechanically (such as advancement from an initiate to a devotee or from a practitioner to a shaman). I'm specifically asking about how one type of magic differs mechanically from the other in play (as per my affinities example) and if there's an easy way to remember the differences.

Thanks in advance for any help/advice/suggestions that you can provide.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

My main advice is a little odd coming from me, as I'm usually pretty system-first when it comes to understanding a game.

But in this case ...

... consider starting by picking a particular place for your proposed game. The magic there will be primarily one of three systems. For instance, our game began in the uplands of Heortland. This is a Theistic culture. Although I'd read the other magic rules, it wasn't until I really started thinking about conflicts and NPCs that the theistic magic sunk into my brain.

Even in the most polycultural areas, such as some portions of the Lunar Empire, it's primarily one magical milieu. When you play for the first time, have the players cut you (and the group as a whole) some slack, and focus culturally and magically on one place, one set of conflicts, and one basic set of magic. The characters can be of different homelands and politics (I was hoping for a Lunar missionary in our game, but didn't get one), but even such opposed ideologies as Heortland die-hands and Tarshite collaborators still operate off the same magic system.

And if someone really wants to play an off-typical magic character, all is not lost. In my experience, people who play this game are going to want to understand the magic system that pertains to their characters very well. We had an animist (a Kolati shaman) in our game, and that player took it on himself to sit down and really process how the rules functioned.

HeroQuest, in my view, isn't really a good game for "GM knows the rules and the rest of us just 'be' our guys." The system is powerful enough and fun enough to share around the group. So as time goes by, put a little effort into making sure everyone is learning how it works, especially the person with an offbeat magic character.

My final point is that the fundamental resolution system is exactly the same for everything in the game. There aren't three magic systems; there are three applications of the same resolution system. All you really need to concern yourself with is specificity of the ability in question, augmenting vs. roll-ability-itself, and its symbolic power and significance.

Best,
Ron

[Scripty]

Thanks, Ron. That's great advice to focus on one type of magic and then expand outward. But I was hoping to get some wisdom from the HeroQuest and HeroWars GMs on this forum as to how they keep the mechanics straight. Like an acronym or something. I understand that the mechanics are essentially the same, but, for me, the similarities are part of the confusion right now. I know that it's something I'll eventually work out in play, but I'd like to feel comfortable with the game before I run it. Unfortunately, no one in my area has heard of HeroWars or HeroQuest before. My FLGS owner actually tried to order me the boardgame when I first special ordered it. So, I'll be the one running and, most likely, doing demos at the FLGS. I'd hate to be fumbling through explaining Animism to a new player (which is all I have), because I focused on Wizardry in my readings.

I'm kind of in a position where I'll have to at least be conversant in the magic rules, if not flat out know them all. I have no doubt that HeroQuest will catch on here among the various groups with whom I play and run. I turned significant numbers of people here on to Feng Shui and Donjon. I can do it. I've just hit a speed bump.

Are there any mental reminders that you keep handy to help out? Like in grade-school we remembered the planets by making a sentence out of MVEMJSUNP. Is there any similar mnemonic device that helped others out there to learn or run magic in HeroQuest?

As far as augments go, I think I get a +1 from you but I also get a +3 to automatic augment to myself for the awe in which I hold you for Sorcerer and all the other contributions (including this forum) that you have quietly given the RPG community. Unfortunately, I have no Magic Resistance whatsoever and my brain is still slowly turning to concrete. Luckily, it's an Extended Contest.

:D

[Scripty]

M'kay. So I went in and hand typed about 6 pages of notations from the HeroQuest text. I think I have it. If not, I have a handy-dandy notes document to help me find it.

As I was typing my way through this document, I noticed that the Magic sections were pretty helter skelter in layout. For instance, there is practically no division in the Wizardry chapter between the Monotheist Schools and the Wizard Occupations like Adepts and such, although the text seems to treat them differently and presents different sample churches and schools for each. There were a couple of other instances where I had to stop/slow down/backtrack, but that's the one that's most on my mind.

Has anyone else encountered similar confusion due to the layout of these sections?

Anyhoo, I now have a handy dandy Magic Document that explains the differences between each area of magic and what each area does for its followers, in mostly terms of game mechanics. Should anyone with similar confusion stumble upon this thread, PM me and I'll email the Word document to you.

[joshua neff]

Actually, I found the magic systems to be well laid-out & easy to use. I've had to reference the Animism section a lot, since one of my Players is a practioner of the From Dark tradition, & I've had no problem finding things I was looking for.

It is a lot to take in. Basically, I'd parrot Ron's advice. Start small & build up. I have three Players. One is an animist, the other two have started with Common Magic & are going to work themselves up at some point. So, I only have to focus on animism for now (which is good, as the From Dark tradition is one of my favorite systems of magic in any RPG).

Now personally, I haven't really had a problem keeping the various magic bits filed in my head, but this is one of the aspects of the game I like the most. I reread the magic chapters for fun, over & over again. I just really like the feel of wizardry, theism, & animism. Great stuff.

[Scripty]

I wasn't knocking the book. I think HQ is great and I, too, really enjoy the different types of magic.

My main difficulty was with keeping the differences between the types of magic set in my head. This is primarily because they are very subtle at times, which cued (to me at least) that it would be easy to skip over or forget a detail here or there. I read each of the three specific magic chapters twice. And then I had my fears confirmed on the yahoo boards. Following that episode, I went back to Basic Magic and started from there all the way through Wizardry, making notations of where the mechanics between the different types of magic differed. There are some very subtle, yet significant, differences between each of the three major types of magic, and even common magic has a quirk or two. IMO, the magic is tricky, but not in a poorly designed or incoherent way (like "Harm" in D&D3e).

When creating my notations, I ran across several instances where I found a sentence in one section of an ability or occupation that I really felt belonged in another section altogether. I also had a difficult time, due to the headers, of differentiating between where certain sections, such as those applying to Initiates and those applying to Devotees, began and ended. It was much easier for me to see the "Divine Companions" header and know, "Oh, I passed Devotees, they're a couple of pages back."

The overall flow of the chapters was logical, though, in that there is a description of the type of magic, an overview of each of the stations within a school, the powers associated with each station, next station, etc. But I specifically found the use of headers to work against this flow at times, and some charts out and out felt misplaced.

This in no way reflects upon the content. It's a great book. I feel the arrangement (as in what follows what) of the material is also good as well, although I would really have liked to see the sample Monotheist churces to precede the discussion of Wizards proper at the very least to let me know that we had moved from one form of Wizardry to another. With this and a handful of other mental twitches, I had some problems with the layout and design. Coming from a graphic design background, I suppose I'm a bit more of a stickler. But I hate to see a book's layout work against it. That's the only reason I mentioned this observation. I think it's somewhat valid, but it in no way detracts from the game itself. The copydesk people just rolled a marginal victory instead of a complete victory on their "Graphic Design" skill. No biggie.

For others who are new to the game, I would recommend taking a good deal of time in the magic chapters (I've spent the last 3 days on them) and taking notes with my comments on design in mind. The Adept is not a continuation of "Monotheism" and that was definitely a speed bump for me. And I would also recommend paying the same attention to the "Basic Magic" chapter, as one would to all others. That first chapter holds a lot of information regarding things such as "First Magic" and "Secrets" that really do affect the way magic will work in your game and I didn't see that information revisited anywhere else in the text.

The differences between the different forms of magic are very subtle. But I felt it quite rewarding to get a real grasp on how they differ from each other. Perhaps in the future, the Game Aids could include some brief on Magic like the one I prepared...

[simon_hibbs]

I agree a summary of the magical abilities in the various types of magic would be usefull, perhaps in the form of a table? At least we're not in the situation we were when RQ3 came out, it took out group upwards of a year to realy get to grips with the old sorcery system.

If you have some notes already written up, and you feel they would eb usefull to other starting Narrators, you could consider submitting them to Issaries Inc at the Glorantha web site in the fan submissions section, or join the HeroQuest-Rules group at yahoogroups and upload it to the files section.

As for me, I've only ever run theist and wizardly characters using the old rules, so I can't realy help much with the new ones and my game is on hold for a while (new baby to look after, among other things).

Best regards,


Simon Hibbs

[Scripty]

Thanks, Simon. I'll check into a possible fan submission.

[newsalor]

Check out the rules synopsis on www.glorantha.com

http://www.glorantha.com/support/GameAids.pdf

It's great.

[Tim Ellis]

I worked through an example of Animism on the HW-Rules list, if it is any help to you (It was largely done to help get things straight in my mind - I still managed to make one slip in confusing Tradition & Practice spirits)

URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hw-rules/message/16003