Time's system - Release the Hounds!

[Time]

I've broken this up into chapters for ease of posting.  I'll put up the first one now.  The chapter separation isn't carved in stone so if you have ideas on layout feel free to throw them out there as well.

I've basically got a concept here and I want to start putting some flesh on these bones.  This is the first system I've seriously started to play with so I do want honest thoughts - however critical.  I'm a big boy, I can take it.

Well, here ya go:



Chapter One: Character Creation

There are no lists of skills, powers, spells, advantages and such to choose from here.  There are no predetermined templates or archetypes either.  Instead there are different Guidelines that allow you to create the skills, powers and such that are necessary for your character.  

-Starting Character Points (CP)-
Most characters start the game with 200 points (although some campaigns may wish to make that amount higher or lower).  This amount can be modified through character creation - Selling Stats or choosing various disadvantages for your character are good ways to get some extra CPs for later on.

The 200 points are divided for spending as follows:  

50pts for Stats, 150pts for Skills/Advantages/Powers/Spells.  If the point cost is different than 200, simply place ¼ of the points into Stats, and the rest into Skills/Advantages/Powers/Spells.

-Stats-
Your characters Stats all start at 0 and can be bought up, or sold down (Note: an exception to this would be any pre-packaged archetypes or races that may have been created for use in your game).  The cost at character creation is a straight 1:1 ratio.  One CP will raise the chosen Stat one point.  Selling off one point will get you one extra point to spend on Skills/Advantages/Powers/Spells.

Any Stat changes made after character creation will cost more.  Chapter Four: Experience Points has more information on spending Xps.  

It is possible for spells, powers or disadvantages to affect your character's Stats.  This is allowed, but no additional CPs are gained or lost this way.

Basic Stats-
The basic Stats are: Strength, Intelligence, Dexterity, Health, Willpower, Charisma.

   Str: Physical strength.  Adds to damage done by hand weapons.

Dex: Physical coordination/manipulation.

Hlt: Overall physical health of the character - Stamina.

Int: Ability to learn and apply complex subjects.

Wil: Mental power, inner drive to keep going against odds.

Chr: Ability to get you point across, to present yourself in a way that will sway others.

Figured Stats-
Each character also has four Figured Stats that are used in play.  These are:

Defense (Def): Dex/10. This the basic defense rank of  the character - will always be at least 1

Move (Mv): Dex/10.  This is the speed of the  character, and will indicate the movement of the character as  well as affecting initiative – the minimum is 1

Hit Points (HP): This is equal to the character's stamina – the minimum is 1

Damage Bonus (DB):  This is ¼ of a character's Str and added to damage in hand to hand combat - can be a negative number (i.e. penalty instead of bonus)

-Advantages and Disadvantages-
A character can have just about any advantage or disadvantage they want, as long as they follow the guidelines below.

Advantages-
The guidelines for Advantages is that if it allows for an Stat bonus, a skill bonus, causes damage or healing, or allows for supernatural affects, this is no longer an advantage and is considered to be a power and must be purchased as such.  Advantages cost 5pts each.

So, if you want to have Night Vision 60' or Regenerate Wounds these would be purchased as powers, but if you wanted to have Light Sleeper, Night Owl or Ambidextrous these can be taken for 5pts each.

Disadvantages-
Disadvantages will only grant a maximum of 25 additional points for character creation.  Each disadvantage must limit the character by one or more of the following:  Mentally, Physically or  Socially.  

Disadvantage Guidelines--

5pt - Mild limitation, comes into play on rare occasions (dislikes green bugs, won't eat red meat)

10pt - Slight.  Will cause some reaction and possible affect on character advancement.  Will come into play at least once a game session (hatred of a group, hated by a person or  group, clean freak)

15pt - A problem.  Causes mild reactions in those who  see/know/affected by it, and will cause an obvious problem  with character advancement in certain areas.  Will come into  play at least twice a game session (kleptomaniac, religious  zealot, one eye).

20pt - Glaring issue.  Reactions are obvious by all who  see/know/affected by the character.  This will occur multiple times a session (odd skin/hair color, constant vulgarity, known to be a criminal, rabid hatred of a group or person)

25pt - Beyond hope.  Reactions are often violent.  Will always play a factor in game play. (missing limb, blind, rotting  flesh, wanted by the law for multiple murder, arsonist, chemically dependent)

-Skills-
Skills are broken into three types: Basic, Tight Group and Broad Group.   These skills do not grant a bonus or a penalty, but simply indicate the type of skill (by the name you give it) and the level of knowledge (the level you purchase the skill at).

All skills also must be tied to a Stat.  The appropriate Stat is chosen by the player (with GM approval) at the time the skill is purchased.

Skills that apply a bonus or penalty,  say for example a skill Find Weakness (giving a +5 on your attack if the skill check is successful) or Instill Doubt (to cause your opponent to have a -5 on their attack if you skill check is successful), you will need to buy it as a Power.

Skill Guidelines--

Basic skills - Very specific/limited skills - limited weapon knowledge (dagger, short sword, hand axe, club), tailor, fishing, riding, blacksmith, leather working (belts, pouches, wallets), hunting, limited regional knowledge  = 1pt per 10%

Tight Group skills – A skill that is basically made up of multiple "basic skills" - weapons that are of the same class (all knives, all swords, all clubs, all bows, etc), wilderness survival, heraldry, religion, river boat captain = 1pts per 5%

Broad Group skills - A skill that is basically made up of multiple "tight group skills" - large groups of weapons (all blades, all blunt, all ranged, all thrown), Ph.D. knowledge of religions, Ph.D. knowledge of heraldry, captain of any type of boat = 1pts per 3%

-Powers and Spells-
Powers are special abilities or skills that a character has which allows them to create a supernatural, or at least  superhuman, affect.  Powers are either "always on" or "on demand" – that is determined by the player at the time the power is chosen.

Things such as Night Vision, Flesh of Stone, Regeneration,  natural weapons such as claws or fangs and other such things all qualify as powers.

It is possible that some spells and powers may require a skill in order to use them.  This is to be determined at the creation of the spell/power.

What if you want to use a spell/power at less than it's max power? This can be done by making a successful skill + relevant Stat/2 roll.  (Magic 30 + Int 25 / 2 = 27.5% or 27%)

Magic and Spells-
Spells are either learned through exhaustive study and research, known as Sorcery or through the Grace of a deity.

Magic learned through Sorcery requires a great deal of time and energy on the part of the would be mage.  This method, while slower than magic gained by Grace, is available to anyone who has the drive and desire to learn.

Sorcery costs 10 CPs to purchase initially, giving the character 1%.  It is then purchased as a Tight Group Skill for additional % points.

Characters who choose Sorcery as their method of spellcasting all have the following disadvantage:

Magic Dependent on Study:
The character must devote at least eight hours each week to the study of Sorcery magic.  Failure to do this will result in a 5% penalty for each hour missed to all Sorcery magic related checks.  

This penalty can be "bought off" when the character studies – without interruption – for the number of hours missed +2.  If the study is interrupted, the sorcerer will need to start all over again.
So, if the character is at a –10% penalty due to two hours of missed study, they will need to study undisturbed for 4hrs by this off.

Faith Magic is derived from a connection to a specific deity.  That connection is known as Grace. Grace is a state in which a deity takes notice of a particular individual, and grants them special gifts. Grace can be lost through lack of piety, but can be won back through atonement.

Faith Magic costs 10 CPs to purchase initially, giving the character 1%.  It is then purchased as a Tight Group Skill for additional % points.

Each faith has it's own rules of atonement and piety.

Spells of this kind are purchased just like all other spells, but the priest is required to have the following disadvantage:

Magic Dependent on Piety/Grace:
The character must remain pious in their faith, and thus remain in the grace of their deity. It is through being in a deity's grace that the character is granted spells.

If a character fails to adhere to the dogma of their faith, they may - at the GM's discretion -have penalties levied against their spell rolls, or they may fail outright. It is also possible that the character's deity may remove their grace and thus the character is no longer able to cast spells from that deity until they have atoned for their transgressions.

Thus, if the character loosed their faith, or becomes less pious than they once were, they risk loosing their spells until they make the proper atonement as prescribed by the dogma of their faith.


Learning Spells-
Only at character creation is a character allowed to simply "pick and choose" the spells they would like to have.   After this, they must be bought with Xps, and researched.  So a character who wishes to purchase a new spell will not only have to spend the Xps, but they will also have to work with the GM to determine how much time, money and so forth that this new spell will cost them.

It is possible for a spell to be "free" in that it would only cost the Xps and nothing else if the character is purchasing spells that match what they already have (e.g. A mage with 20 heal spells who wants Create Food would be "free" – only costing Xps as these spells are all dealing with health – but if that same mage wanted Lightning Bolt, that would cost research time, money for supplies and Xps).

Time and Monetary cost for spells-
Matching (at least 5 spells like it): 0 - this is a logical extension of the studies the mage has been working with for some time.

Outside (less than 5 spells like it, or a totally different directional focus): Cost of spell/2 for # of weeks study & Cost of spell/10 for cost in silver.

Resisting Powers/Spells-
The ability of a target to resist the some or all of the effects of a power/spell, depends on the type of power/spell being used.

If a power/spell effects the mind, it can't dodge it physically, but they can use their Will (adding any skill, spells or powers that would help and can be used) to defend themselves.

Similarly, if the power/spell shoots a Fire Arrow then a Dex check (using any skill, spells or powers that would help and can be used)  is appropriate as the defense.  

A power/spell which gives a person a disease may be defended with their Hlt and so on.

The guideline is that each power or spell must clarify what can be done to defend against it, and what level of protection that a successful defense provides.  See the Spells and Powers Guidelines below for more information on this.

Spells and Powers Guidelines--
Each spell or power cost below is the initial cost to buy the spell or power.  If it is a power, it is at 1%.  After that, each CP spent on a power will give you 2% (1:2% ratio)

Player will determine what Stat the Power will be tied to.   If buying a spell, choose either Wil or Int.

Damage caused = 1pt per point of damage (1 for 1)

Range = 0pts for touch/1pt per 5'

Area affect (will affect everything in that area - if not area affect, it is one target only) = 5pts for every 10ft

Defended against = determine what Stat is used to defend against this power/spell (as always, any skill, power or spell that logically can be used and is connected to the Stat will be added to this defense.  E.g. if Dex can be used, a Dodge skill could be used to make the defense roll).

Defended against, how much protection – ½ or Whole? = If ½, - 5pts from cost.  If Whole, -10pts from cost.

Requires speech, gestures, components, etc = -1pt per basic requirement - up to Xgp worth, minimal gestures etc/-2 per requirement - up to Xgp worth, 1rd of gestures etc/-3 per req up to Xgp worth, 2-3rds gestures etc/-4 per....

Components consumed or not = -3 if consumed/-1 if not

Limitation (only at night, once per day, only with concentration, cannot wear metal armor, etc)=    -2pts per limitation.

Costs Hit Points to cast = -2pts per 1pt of health cost

Summoning inanimate object - Simple = 1pt per square foot of size

Summoning inanimate object - Complex = 2pts per square foot of size

Summoning animal intelligent being = 10pts per being summoned (horse size or smaller)/20pts larger than horse

Summoning human intelligent being = 50pts per being summoned (human sized or smaller)/100pts larger than human size

Summon supernatural being, or being with supernatural powers (mages, demons, etc) = above cost for intelligence + above cost for size + 50pts  

Basic healing = 1pt per point of damage healed

Advanced healing (e.g. regenerate limb, eye, resurrection) = 10pts for minor affect (e.g. limb regrowth)/20pts for major  repair (e.g. eye, lungs, heart)/50pts for resurrection (up to one month old corpse)/100pts for major resurrection (e.g. requires only the skull)

Armor (e.g. grants pluses to damage absorption, granted a certain type of armor's protection) = 2pts per 1pt

Evasion (subtract from opponents hit roll) = 2pts per 1pt

Duration (probably different point costs based on if it's an attack power, creature summon, item creation, etc... ) = 1pt per hour/permanent creations take the summoning cost + 25 (a permanent horse would be 10pts + 25 = 35pts)

Reproduce natural affect (create light/water/darkness/food/etc) = 2pts up to 5' square affected/4pts up to 10' square affected/6pts... and so on.

Requires Stat/skill check to use (e.g. throwing, longsword, club, staff, swimming...) = -2


In order to cast a spell or use power, see Chapter Two: Conflict Resolution.

[Time]

One thing I forgot - how I forgot this in The Forge I have no idea....

My goal with this system is:
A fast playing system with easy conflict resolution and the ability to create unique characters (e.g. no "fighter class") that allow the players to have characters that are personal enough that they care about them.  I don't want to be stuck in a genre/setting if I can help it.

I would call this (when looking as the G/N/S model), most likely either G or N.  I enjoy both styles of game so I may be touching both camps on this.

If there is a need for futher clarificaion on what I'm shooting for let me know.

-Time

[ This Message was edited by: Time on 2001-10-26 16:39 ]

[Zak Arntson]

My goal with this system is:
A fast playing system with easy conflict resolution and the ability to create unique characters (e.g. no "fighter class") that allow the players to have characters that are personal enough that they care about them. I don't want to be stuck in a genre/setting if I can help it.

I'm not sure why you don't use a current system, or simple modifications to one.  But then, I'm more of a cool System tied to Premise guy myself.  I'm just curious ... why don't you want to be stuck in a genre/setting?  What benefits do you see in a generic system?  (maybe that deserves its own thread ...)

Anyhow, before my personal shift towards this, I did do a lot of thinking on generic systems.  Mostly "fixes" to make d20/AD&D 2nd ed. less of a class-based game (my background is in Planescape, which focuses more on character psychology than class).  So here's my constructive criticism for you ...

Character Creation
With a point system, especially where points can be spent on different things, BE VERY CAREFUL with balance.  How can you be sure that 1 Stat point = 3 Broad Skill points = 1 point of Advantage/Disadvantage?  This is a tough one, and you will always have to worry about players looking for best-buys (see Ron's discussions on Champions, a game I've only played once and got BURNED when I character-created for fun and the other players min/maxed).

Magic
I wonder why you have the Wizard/Priest split.  This seems limiting and somewhat arbitrary.  Could this be an artifact of D&D?  Try offering a Cast Spell Advantage that is extremely costly, and is often balanced by different Disadvantages.  Disadvantages like "Magic by Study" and "Magic by Faith."  This way, enterprising Players and campaign-world creators can come up with entirely new types of magic-user ... "Magic by Tattoo" for example ... without resorting to bending current rules (the analog to this would be every new magic-user in D&D requires a new Class or Prestige Class, blech).

I'm interested in seeing more of your game, but I'd much rather see your creative juices go into cool Premise and you hash it out with a good System here on the Forge.

[Mike Holmes]

The corrallary to Zak's point is, why should I use this system instead of Hero System (generic Champions), Fuzion, Risus, GURPS, FUDGE, Tri-Stat, CORPS, JAGS, or any of a plethora of other generic systems I can name (Universalis)? Does it improve upon these? How so? I doesn't at first glance seem to have any more problems than any other system. But I already have resources for many of these other games as well as experience in how to handle them well. Why would one want to switch unless there was some improvement?

Mike

[Mithras]

Mike's right, you need a central kick (that is if you want to disseminate your game ... if its for personal use, then I can see plenty of benefits in using your own system over GURPS, FUDGE et al).

The nifty tag line 'can be used in a variety of different genres and settings' isn't new anymore. BESM is generic, but it angles itself toward a cinematic and high action genre; GURPS is different, a generic game that sails as close to 'realism' as your ever likely to get. My little generic game The Ladder is short and very easy to memorize, its a generic game that dispenses with most rules and wraps everything up around a single 5 rung ladder. None of these games do everything well. They focus on a partiular style, or chose a certain line.

What's yours?

Best Regards

[Mike Holmes]

Also, your game has very traditionally Simulationist/Gamist mechanics, Is there going to be something in a later chapter that heads it off into Narrativism?

Mike

[Time]

If I'm reading you all correctly, the general ideas you are throwing to me are:

1. why not use GURPS, FUDGE or another generic system?
2. I may need something special - a setting - to really kick this idea into action.
3. This is much more G/S than N - so if I want more N, things might need to change.

I'm going to see if I can work through these issues with some more explanation.  Here goes...


My original reason for thinking of the system came up durring a GURPS campaign I was running.  The problem I was having was that I'm not too happy with the way that the skills, advantages and such are listed in GURPS - I wanted a set of guidlines that allow the players to design their own skills, advantages, etc. so that they can personalize thier characters.

I don't want a list of skills and such because everytime I have such a list, my players say "Well, I want to do X, but the closest thing I can find is XX - will you let me change it?"
Not that I mind doing that, I just figgued that with a list of guidelines this question and "on the spot" work wouldn't be necessary.  If you want skill X, that's fine - use the guidelines and make skill X.

I also wanted even faster combat.  I don't like/want a lot of emphasis on combat.  Sure, you can get into a slobberknocker or two, but I don't want a two hour (real time) battle.  I want fast combat that allows for more naration - similar to Amber and Sorcerer.  Not exactly like Amber and Sorcerer, but similar.  While I love both of those games I want a little more of a "Gamist" feel - not much!  Just a little.

The setting that I was using in the GURPS game that started me thinking about this was my setting of Avalon.  My first thought was to custom the game to that setting - but then I thought that perhaps a generic system would be better.  I guess I've stuck with that thought and it hasn't really been challenged until now.
I have a good write up of what the Avalon world is like - perhaps I should post that and then we can tweak, bend, twist the rules to fit that setting?


Thank you all for the first round of thoughts.  It's good to have your ideas challenged - makes me think and work harder.

-Time

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-10-29 10:17, Time wrote:
My original reason for thinking of the system came up durring a GURPS campaign I was running.  The problem I was having was that I'm not too happy with the way that the skills, advantages and such are listed in GURPS - I wanted a set of guidlines that allow the players to design their own skills, advantages, etc. so that they can personalize thier characters.

I don't want a list of skills and such because everytime I have such a list, my players say "Well, I want to do X, but the closest thing I can find is XX - will you let me change it?"
Not that I mind doing that, I just figgued that with a list of guidelines this question and "on the spot" work wouldn't be necessary.  If you want skill X, that's fine - use the guidelines and make skill X.

OK, this might be an advantage over GURPS. But there are other systems that allow you to define your own skills and disadvantages. But, like Paul (Mithras) said, if this is just for your own consumption, then, as a fix of GURPS, you may have exactly what you want. Would you like us to consider it from that POV? In that case we can just consider the ramifications of the system on your particular goals.

I also wanted even faster combat.  I don't like/want a lot of emphasis on combat.  Sure, you can get into a slobberknocker or two, but I don't want a two hour (real time) battle.  I want fast combat that allows for more naration - similar to Amber and Sorcerer.  Not exactly like Amber and Sorcerer, but similar.  While I love both of those games I want a little more of a "Gamist" feel - not much!  Just a little.

Well, we'll have to wait for chapter two to comment on that at all.

The setting that I was using in the GURPS game that started me thinking about this was my setting of Avalon.  My first thought was to custom the game to that setting - but then I thought that perhaps a generic system would be better.  I guess I've stuck with that thought and it hasn't really been challenged until now.
I have a good write up of what the Avalon world is like - perhaps I should post that and then we can tweak, bend, twist the rules to fit that setting?

If that's what you want. If you mean Avalon in the Arthurian sense, I'd suggest looking at Pendragon for potential inspiration.

Mike

[Valamir]

Actually Time, I would DEFINITELY make your game fit you conception of Avalon.  My recommendation would be to find something about Avalon that makes Avalon unique, and make that a central (not just present in the peripheral, but central) mechanic to your game world.

How is Avalon different from any of the myriad other fantasy settings available.  Whatever it is...active presence of divine influence, daily relationship with faeries, a particular feudal-esque social system, everyones a lycanathrope, talking animals, the land itself is magical...whatever...take that thing and find a way to make it take up a large chunk of real estate on your character sheet.

To my way of thinking, you'll know you have succeeded at the point where your game couldn't be used for anything BUT playing in Avalon.

Trying to answer this question and the quest for how to represent it in the game mechanics...will also provide the other issue raised here...the hook for the game.

[Time]

Mike,
This is basically for my own use, or to give to others for free - but I still want it to be the best it can be.

My Avalon isn't Arthurian - I would use Pendragon for inspiration if it was (I've played Pendragon before and enjoyed it).  Avalon is a dark fantasy world in a Fritz Leiber/Theive's World/Thief (the computer game) type of feel.

I'll get chapter two posted later today to see what you think of the conflict resolution.  I think that area needs the most help to get the feel I want it to have.

Zak,
Very good thoughts on the Magic and Character point aspects.  Thank you.
I especially like the idea of simply using Disadvantages like "Magic by Study" and "Magic by Faith."  I think that does offer more options.

Mithras,
Your idea of focusing on a particular sytle or a certain line is a good one - I hadn't thought of it in that way.  Thanks for the assist.


-Time

[Time]

"To my way of thinking, you'll know you have succeeded at the point where your game couldn't be used for anything BUT playing in Avalon." - Valamir

After reading that, Valamir, I think I may have tried to use too broad of a brush at the start - reinforcing the "stay focused" advice that Mithras gave.

Let me digest this for a bit.

-Time

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-10-29 11:04, Valamir wrote:
To my way of thinking, you'll know you have succeeded at the point where your game couldn't be used for anything BUT playing in Avalon.

Well, that's an odd statement for a guy writing a game that can be used for ANY setting. Or are you trying to move other cntenders out of our market? Hmmm..  :wink:

Anyhow, I'm personally of the belief that the system should be "generic" enough to handle well everything that the game intends to cover, and maybe just a teensy bit more just in case the GM wants to add something new. That having been said, there is no reason why NOT to go for a very setting specific system if that is what he wants. But this is a decision to make.

Also, there is the subject of Realism. I understand that this is a fantasy game, but how realistic do you want the action in the game to be, Matt? Also, is the game combat focused, or is combat just one of many equal methods of conflict resolution in the game?

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-10-29 11:12, Time wrote:
This is basically for my own use, or to give to others for free - but I still want it to be the best it can be.

"Best it can be" from what POV? Just you and your players? Or to some market segment? The answers may be vastly different? What are your players like? Have you discussed GNS with them? Or can you tell their preferences just from experience? You mention that you want the game to be G/N. These have some similarities, but there are also a lot of polar differences? In the end, which side would you prefer to end up on? Sounds like G to me with a bit of N powers just for kicks.

Check out Paul Elliot's (Mithras) Zenobia for a cool take on combat that might just fit your bill.

Mike

[Valamir]

On 2001-10-29 11:04, Valamir wrote:
To my way of thinking, you'll know you have succeeded at the point where your game couldn't be used for anything BUT playing in Avalon.

Well, that's an odd statement for a guy writing a game that can be used for ANY setting. Or are you trying to move other cntenders out of our market? Hmmm..  :wink:

Heh...nope, but I'll tell you why I don't think Universalis violates my total disdain for general purpose gaming systems.  Universalis has a very specific focus: to tell collaborative stories while completely dispersing Game Master authority among the players where the primary mechanic serves to regulate how much power over the story a player has at a given point in time.  You really CAN'T use Universalis to play any other type of game...it is very very specialized.  It is merely the nature of "telling stories" that stories can be told about any time or setting that allows the game to be used for any setting.

Anyhow, I'm personally of the belief that the system should be "generic" enough to handle well everything that the game intends to cover, and maybe just a teensy bit more just in case the GM wants to add something new.

Well I've come to the decision that "but I want to play a..." statements are usually best met with "then play something else"

[Mike Holmes]

Hijack Alert!

Now returning you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Where's chapter two!

Mike