Question about a combat situation

[Tywin Lannister]

Two characters engage in combat.
Both have red dice, and were in an aggressive stance.

A uses Feint-Thrust.
B uses Counter.

What happens?!?

[Salamander]

Two characters engage in combat.
Both have red dice, and were in an aggressive stance.

A uses Feint-Thrust.
B uses Counter.

What happens?!?

B will get the chance to roll a counter against the feint-thrust, but will be at a -2 dice for the aggressive stance and an additional -2 dice for the activation cost.

[Draigh]

most likely.. B will get stabbed.

and bleed... alot.

[Richard_Strey]

Is that so? How could one fighter initiate a counter to an attack that hasn't happened yet? IIRC, the counter is a defensive ("white") move. You can counter an attack when you are on the defense, but not during your own attack. You'd have to resort to sim. block/strike or evasive attack instead.

I am well aware of Indes, but I doubt this is the right place to start a conversation about the finer points. ;)

[Overdrive]

Good point, of course B cannot Counter :)

But why is A feinting? After all, B also threw red and feint just doesn't do anything meaningful..

[Tywin Lannister]

Well:
The Seneschal says: "Throw your dice", and both roll red.
Player A wants to do a feint-thrust against the chest of the opponent, and declares "Thrust!"
Player B declares a "Counter!"
Player A says "I feint the thrust and move my blade in a vertical swing towards .. etc"

[Brian Leybourne]

Tywin,

What overdrive meant was that in a red/red situation, with both opponents attacking, there's usually only one exchange in the round and so both use their full diepool anyway, so there's no benefit in a feint. Given that B countered, there would be, but A wouldn't be thinking "feint" until he heard that B was countering.

Of course, that makes for an interesting strategy now that I think of it. Both throw red and are in aggressive stance. The slower initiative has to declare first. So, he does and uses all his dice because that's the usual way of doing things in a red/red. The second opponent instead takes his lumps and declares a counter, getting penalties for his stance etc. He uses most of his dice.

Assuming he survives, he has dice left so there'll be a second exchange, seneschal permitting. A second exchange where his opponent has no dice left and he does...

Of course, usually if you throw red you must attack and not defend, but still...

Brian.

[Tywin Lannister]

How so? Isn't it just -2 CP for defending when you have thrown a red die, as per the rules?

In this specific case (which happened in a tourney with batons, so luckily the PC survived), both had equal Reflex to make matters more complicated.

[Spartan]

How so? Isn't it just -2 CP for defending when you have thrown a red die, as per the rules?

Yes.  Some folks here like to houserule that in the first exchange, you must attack when you've thrown red and defend when you've thrown white.  Personally, I just play it straight.  If you wanna spend the extra 2 CP, go right ahead.  It's never been that much of an issue in play for me, anyway.

-Mark

[Valamir]

Theres a lot of folks confusing Aggressive and Defensive STANCE with Red and White dice in this thread.

They are not the same thing.  There is NO CP penalty for defending from a Red die.  The CP penalty is for throwing a white die from an Aggressive Stance.

You can choose an aggressive stance and then throw white (defend) for a -2 penalty.  You can choose a defensive stance and then throw red (attack) for a -2 penalty.

However, the Red Die and White Die ARE determinations of ATTACK and DEFEND not determinations of Stance.  Stance is announced verbally and can be changed as many times as desired by any players in any order until both sides are satisfied with their stance.  ONLY THEN are the red and white dice dropped.

And yes throwing Red means "I am attacking you".  The Counter is a Defensive move and is NOT available upon throwing the red die.

You can Counter from a Aggressive stance by throwing the white die...but you cannot Counter once you've thrown Red.  Red means Attack.

[Spartan]

Oops... Valamir's right.  I haven't had my coffee yet, sorry.  You can abort to attack after throwing white, though.  Personally, I'd let a guy who threw red abort to defence if he wanted to, provided he hasn't already declared the specifics of his attack.  There's not much of a reason for it, though.  I've never seen it happen.

-Mark

[Brian Leybourne]

Uh, yeah, what Ralph said :-)

Brian.