Game Idea: The Land of Nod

[gameskald]

Ok, here is an idea that came to me the other night after waking up from a trully bizarre dream. What about an rpg where the whole of the story takes place in a dream? Is there anything like this out there as of yet?

I am sure there is, but I have never seen it. In any case, here is my story: I woke up from a truly bizarre dream right before I normally wake up for work. I got up and did my normal mornings activities, and then when I was at work discussing the Dream with a friend and Game Skald co-owner when I snapped my fingers and said, a game that takes place in a dream. I don't know how it would work, but there is something there! (Yes I know I should be doing real work, after all they are paying me. But come on people thats just not fun) So, he agreed and now I am left with the question, how to do it?

d20?: Definately not
FUDGE?: Maybe as a skeleton frame work
Totally new?: Why not!

So I have a few idea's on the concept. I know I probably shouldn't post this here, god knows I dont want to be the one to say something and then not complete it and be known forever as a wanabe (LOL) but again this is just an idea. I am not setting it in motion yet, just pondering the possibilities.  I am truly wondering if I can even attempt to put what I am conceiving into words here, but lets try, perhaps someone here can make sense out of my ramblings.

IDEA 1
As I am a firm believer is some sort of physical make up for a character (I just can't get out of that box) We have to have a couple attributes:
ID: one of the three divisions of the psyche, the source of psychic energy derived from instinctual needs and drives.
SUPER EGO or SE:only partly conscious, represents internalization of parental conscience and the rules of society, and functions to reward and punish through a system of moral attitudes, conscience, and a sense of guilt
EGO: measures the organized conscious between the 'person' and reality especially by functioning both in the perception of and adaptation to reality.  

ok so the ID represents the characters ability to  be one with NOD, to manipulate it to their own ends. Much like Amber and the ability to manipulate shadow. Note that this doesnt mean the player knows how, just that he has the ability. (Sort of like a Jedi is one with the force but must be trained)

SE represents the characters moral attitude, or nightmare qualities. Perhaps Super Ego if a character looses their SE at a certain point they become a nightmare or phantom dream since SE is described as it is above.

EGO is exactly what it describes above, it is the opposite of ID, so the greater the ego, the more bound the character is to their so called "physics" or reality, making it harder for them to do things and less likely to manipulate the NOD.

Thats the only real idea I have for character dev right now. I am more sucked into the absolute randomness of it all. I really do not want to get to DREAM techy as I think that would make it more 'ruly' than it should be. I think Dream play should be quick, random...I am envisioning the land of nod being almost alive itself or some what conscience. An ever changing world that is shaped by those within it.

Meaning you being play in locale 1, this locale is overseen by a collective of dreams keeping some solidity to their little nitche of NOD. While locale 2 might be the so called wilds of NOD, where the 'land' is free to do as it wishes.

Perhaps there could be a method so that a collaborative effort can be done to obtain desired results. For instance if the game was a true "dream" then every player would have their own flavor of the world. However that would be utter chaos and I don't see how you can do it. OTOH, if NOD is based on those that live in it, great changes are only possible if it is a collaborative effort to bring the chaos of NOD under foot by many "people" coming together and working as one.

Then again, in that same breath I want to say that personal self image should be taken into account. You could be anything, ANYTHING when you dream. Should this be driven off of the ID, and a person with great enough skill is able to transform themselves? Or is it possible that everyone in NOD is unconsciencely fighting for control of the world.

Are the players people at home in their bed and only visiting this place called NOD? Or are they permanent dreams, actual creatures of NOD?

IDEA 2? or, who stole my banana?

Again, I am sticking with NOD for sanity's sake. NOD is actually the land of the dead. There is no heaven, no hell, only dreams and nightmares and its all about self perception, and personal views. This I think would get really hard to referee.


Perhaps, at least in my mind at this point Option 1 sounds like it makes sense, but then again its almost Midnight. Id and Ego I think should have to keep some kind of balance or some consequence should happen? Yes no?

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this subject?
Has it been done?
What system type do you personally think would be best?
Can the idea hold water?
Does Idea 1 make sense?

Well Good night for now guys and girls. I've got a round trip ticket ( I hope) to NOD, maybe I will find some answers there.

Wish me luck!

[Kirk Mitchell]

Hey gameskald and welcome to the Forge (unless somebody already beat me to the punch). Its a pretty interesting idea, and yes, somebody has stolen your banana, this sort of thing has been done before, but not in the way you are describing it. Yours seems more freeform (sort of like in my game, in the nightscape, but that is not the focus of mine so thats OK), and pretty intersting. I think Idea 1 works best, because idea 2 doesn't seem like it could hold water. I just need to see some more material or mechanics to really comment on the setting and rules, but it seems like you may have a start here.

Best of luck in Nod (have you by any chance played Tiberian Sun?).

Kirk

[Daniel Solis]

For a previous take on the subject of dream-gaming, check out Dreamwalker by Politically Incorrect Games. The gist of it is that you enter people's troubled dreaming minds and fight the alien psi-beasties that have caused nightmares in humanity for hundreds of years. Because dreams are dreams, anything can happen, but it's easier to do stuff fitting with the previously established style of the dream and less likely to cause so much incongruity that the dreamer wakes up, sending you into dumpshock.

I guess something's in the water, 'cause the Adults in Wonderland thread has me cooking up an idea mixing up Dreamwalker, .hack//SIGN, the Matrix and the Maxx.

[Lxndr]

I ran a FUDGE game a few years back which was entirely set in the land of dreams (there was a concurrent PBEM game that was about the waking world of both the dreamers and their buddies, but the FUDGE rules pretty much focused on the dream side).  Since I started Twisted Confessions I'm actually planning on converting it to its own set of mechanics, and am in the process of doing so right now.  You call yours Nod - mine I called Shangri-la.

Other games that I've seen still have you work on your waking life - DreamWalker, far as I can tell, has portions of the game where you're pretty much required to be a flesh-and-blood awake person.  Shangri-La was meant to completely toss that away.  At the beginning of each session, "okay, you're all asleep."  At the end of each session, "you wake up."

The idea came to me originally in an attempt to brainstorm "what sort of game idea would work well when the #, and identity, of players could vary widely from session to session?"  Shangri-la fits that, in my opinion - every game session, you could have a different group of players, and yet still have some semblance of continuity.

Shangri-la is much closer to idea #1 than idea #2, and I'd be interested to see how you handle #1.  My separation of attributes was rather different than yours (and I'm revising them anyway - this was all done before the Forge, and I've managed to break a number of pre-held assumptions thanks to this place).  I spent a lot of time detailing the lower dream realms (which I imagined in layers) but never got into the higher ones as the game broke apart.

So, yeah.  Anyway.  Run with it.  There aren't enough dream games.

[Mike Holmes]

Matt Snyder has an intriguing game planned which he calls Dreamspire. You can learn more about it on the fora here, or at his chimera creative site.

Mike

[gameskald]

Hey gameskald and welcome to the Forge (unless somebody already beat me to the punch). Its a pretty interesting idea, and yes, somebody has stolen your banana, this sort of thing has been done before, but not in the way you are describing it. Yours seems more freeform (sort of like in my game, in the nightscape, but that is not the focus of mine so thats OK), and pretty intersting. I think Idea 1 works best, because idea 2 doesn't seem like it could hold water. I just need to see some more material or mechanics to really comment on the setting and rules, but it seems like you may have a start here.

Best of luck in Nod (have you by any chance played Tiberian Sun?).

Kirk

Thanks for the fedback Dumirik. If and when I get some more mechanic idea's I will be sure to share them and see if they make sense.

I have not played Tiberian Sun.

For a previous take on the subject of dream-gaming, check out Dreamwalker by Politically Incorrect Games. The gist of it is that you enter people's troubled dreaming minds and fight the alien psi-beasties that have caused nightmares in humanity for hundreds of years. Because dreams are dreams, anything can happen, but it's easier to do stuff fitting with the previously established style of the dream and less likely to cause so much incongruity that the dreamer wakes up, sending you into dumpshock.

I guess something's in the water, 'cause the Adults in Wonderland thread has me cooking up an idea mixing up Dreamwalker, .hack//SIGN, the Matrix and the Maxx.

Very cool idea with Dreamwalker and Adults in wonderland. Although I dont see NOD being anything like Dreamwalker, I am more interested in keeping the entire story in NOD.  Adults in Wonderland sorta of articulates what I am envisioning a bit more, but I do not want NOD to be encompassing of character Issues and have NOD helping them overcome real life issues, such as Alice growing up. Both that you point out look like alot of fun though.

I was thinking a little more about it last night in bed as I lay there trying to slumber, but couldn't cause my mind was whirling. I am envisioning NOD as an actual place and those playing in it as creatures from there. The whole idea of the players taking on the roles of people who are sleeping and dreaming the game just doesn't seem to really fit the vision I have. However this does:

When the first dreams were dreamt another world was formed, The Land of NOD. Nod is a physical place where the dreams of dreamers take on a shape and a life of their own, and become a part of their own reality. Of course no one has 1 shared dream and thus NOD is an incredibly diverse world of fantasy, fairytales, science-fiction, whimsicle idealism, light and dark landscapes, benevolent and malevolent creatures where anything is possible.

Players take on the role of a Dreamling, a creature of NOD, who at one time was someones dream, but has since taken on a life of its own in NOD.

(I would have to say that the biting idea in the back of my mind would have been inspired not by real dream movies or lyrics. But more so fantastical stories like Willy Wonka...Were the umpa loompas from NOD? Perhaps Willy could travel there, a place where Vermicious Kanids are real and Umpa Loompas did exist. Another inspiration now that I am getting a more solid pictire of what I am after would be lyrics from Tom Waits song Singapore. There are some obvious indications from the song)

So now I need to begin laying the ground work for mechanics for you guys to strip apart until I have something good. I will contemplate this question and return with something I HOPE.

Thanks for the posts!

[gameskald]

Matt Snyder has an intriguing game planned which he calls Dreamspire. You can learn more about it on the fora here, or at his chimera creative site.

Mike

Dreamspire seems very cool indeed. I am currently looking through the forums, but havent come across any topics really relating the concept. Although Matts site has certainly peked my curiousity.

[DP]

Underlight.

Gotta love Skotos. 2 MMORPGs, 2 text online RPGs, and several strategy games for $12.95/month.

[gameskald]

underlight seems cool as well.

This is killing me...what Attributes would you need? If you are RPing a creature that lives in the land of dreams.

As I stated earlier the land itself is created from what we dream, but exists on its own. If I dream of flying space monkeys, then flying space monkeys become real in NOD.

Does anyone else think this is a neat idea, or am I just being silly?

The game itself could be any mood really. Should I try and tone it down something like they did with Underlight. One city? Perhaps NOD is a city? And everything outside of NOD is chaos, waiting to be molded by the dreamers?

Should I develop area's of NOD for play one at a time? I guess I am looking for some input on the concept.

I am thinking players can really be anything they want (of course a refree should have some input for flavour) So I dont think there would be the stereotypical races you find in alot of games. Appearance wouldnt really make a difference to bonuses.

Perhaps I am being to stuck in the typical campaign style game, trying to forsee how an adventure could be ongoing with the same characters session to session. What do the Dreamlings do? What is a typical day like in a city in NOD? So many questions...

What type of Attributes would work best? Do we need attributes?  Can players alter NOD? Can they manipulate other players?

I think this is so far in the conceptual stage I should stop posting about it. I don't want to waste anyones time, and like I said to begin with I am not definate this is a project that I can tackle at this time, being new and all. Dreams are funny things. I think I will put NOD to bed for now and think on it some more and post at a later time, should more come to light at a later time.

Thanks for everyones input and links! I really appreciate it. Ihave to say, this forum is rather good. Great information, feedback. What a great community.

Being a new game designer, I have to say that I find the Forge to be an invaluable asset. Kudo's to those who made it possible!

[Daniel Solis]

Maybe existence isn't such a sure thing for dreamlings? They could have a trait called "Being" that represents how often and how intensely people dream about them. Their day-to-day is spent trying to cultivate more dreams and thus gain power among their peers. The most powerful are, of course, embodiments of the most commonly had nightmares like teeth coming out, falling, stuff like that. It'd be hard to visualize, like any dream, but it's an idea.

[gameskald]

Maybe existence isn't such a sure thing for dreamlings? They could have a trait called "Being" that represents how often and how intensely people dream about them. Their day-to-day is spent trying to cultivate more dreams and thus gain power among their peers. The most powerful are, of course, embodiments of the most commonly had nightmares like teeth coming out, falling, stuff like that. It'd be hard to visualize, like any dream, but it's an idea.

And a Dang good one Too!!

[Kirk Mitchell]

Yeah, Being would work really well, with simple contested rolls of Being to resolve actions, or maybe a Karmic system. But I don't know, it sort of seems really skeletony. It all really depends on what kind of game you want. Do you want a really fast and simple Narrativist type game (note I use "type", as I don't think that constraining yourself in a set framework of "this is this kind of game" will get you anywhere), or do you want something with different goals. By the looks of the setting, it seems you might want something simple and versatile to represent how dreams work. Therefor, I think that Being, and perhaps something that represents how well these dreamlings can controll their reality and their surrounding reality, because I imagine it to be in a constant state of flux, so keeping it under control so you can actually get something done would be a bit of a task (sort of like being caught in a riptide).

And without trying to jump in the way and shout "Look at meeeee!", I can't help but point out that my own game has a similar type of idea, where the separate world of human dreams taking reality exists. However, in mine, they have leaked out into the real world and are now wreaking havok all over the place. However, yours deals with the workings of the workings of the dream world itself. I'm just trying to say that I think that you have a good idea on your hands and work with it. (OK, you can shut up now Kirk and remove your foot from your mouth, the nice men in white coats will be here to see you soon...)

Best of luck,
Kirk

[Daniel Solis]

And without trying to jump in the way and shout "Look at meeeee!", I can't help but point out that my own game has a similar type of idea, where the separate world of human dreams taking reality exists. However, in mine, they have leaked out into the real world and are now wreaking havok all over the place.

All this dream-game stuff got me to work up my own take yesterday. It ended up less ethereal and psychological than I had hoped, but that's the way the die tumbles. If you're interested in someone else's take on shared-dreams-as-game-setting, I posted bleed_ on this thread.

[gameskald]

Well like I said earlier I am going to put this on the side for a bit and put some more thought into the mechanics before I post about it again. Besides, by that time someone else will probably have figured out the problem first LOL. Thats cool though.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

The above post would close the thread, except that I think the references for games of this stuff must include Shattered Dreams from Apex Publishing (1994). It gets a certain amount of bad press, but for our group at the time, it played extremely well.

Best,
Ron