Jumping Back to...

[spunky]

Jumping back to: "What's the point of partial armor in a system where the attacker declares where his blow will land?"

Style, baby. Style.  Part of being a hero is looking good.

Unless you're a card-carrying knight or a member of the watch, you're not going to be walking around in armor.  In my campaign, most of the fights take place when the characters aren't tricked out in ironmongery.   This may have to do with the fact that I slap penalties on characters who spend too much time in anything more than an arming doublet and a chain hauberk.   It's one thing when you know you're going into battle; it's another when a character wears plate armor every day as some kind of paranoid fashion statement.

Even so, you can usually get by with a chain hauberk under your cloak.  And the fact that you enemy is not required to target your chest doesn't mean that you wouldn't try to protect your vitals.

In my game experience, if you keep targeting only the unarmored parts of your enemy, you may get frustrated when, instead of standing their ground to trade blows with you like Tyson/Holyfield I, your enemy keeps pulling a full evade.   Start throwing blows at his damn breatplate.  Sure enough, he'll drop some dice from his defense roll to hang in and hit you... and that's when you pull a feint and cut his damn leg off.

(For what it's worth, when GMing (Seneschal, whatever) I DO use the optional CP penalties for striking at different zones. )

[Brian Leybourne]

Split from this post, which is old and would like to stay in retirement. Please check the forum rules sticky if you're unsure of what I'm talking about :-)

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

In some of my research and reading recently I have repetitively read that while someone carrying a weapon in public was even expected, someone in Armor was looking for a fight. Remember that perception is everything when it comes to much of the way the real world works, and that is a breaking point in any "realistic" RPG where there isn't an agreement within the group to treat perceptions and social issues with the importance they deserve in a "realistic" game (assuming that's the groups goal).

If there's one thing that the Forge has really, truly made a believer in me about, it's "social contract."

Jake

[Ashren Va'Hale]

lets not forget my favorite reason for only having partial armor---


MONEY!

Full plate costs a crapload!

that should be 'nuff said.


but as a side question, I imagine that plate might be less cumbersome than chain assuming that plate done right is distributed across teh body while chain just rests on the shoulders.  Any one with some insight on this out there?

[toli]

but as a side question, I imagine that plate might be less cumbersome than chain assuming that plate done right is distributed across teh body while chain just rests on the shoulders.  Any one with some insight on this out there?

I have read things to this extent, but have no practical experience in armor.  I do SCUBA dive.  I wear ~30 lbs of lead and a 40 lb tank.  It isn't that much weight on land (overheating is much more of a problem), but how the weigh is distributed is really important.  30lbs in a weight belt is fatiguing and uncomfortable.  The same weight in a weigh harness (which distributes is much better) is much better.  You also need to learn move correctly with that much weight on.  I would imagine the same would apply to armor.  

From what I've read, overheating was more of a problem than the actual weight of the armor.

I read one book that argued that heavy cavalry made a brief (~25 year) comeback in the late 1400s as advancements in armor design and manufacture outpaced advancements in projectiles.  Late 15th C armor only weighs about 58 lbs, not that much more than mail, I think.  The full gear of a 15C knight was about the same as a 19th C cavarlyman (more ammo I guess).  US soldiers wear 35lbs into combat and hike with close to 100lbs, if I remember correctly.  

Bit of a ramble...sorryNT

[Caz]

I have a lot of experience in both mail and plate armours.  Mail is quite a bit heavier, and unless you've trained in it that much more, it will tire you quicker thn plate.  A hauberk will mostly rest on the shoulders, wearing out your deltoid muscles when using weapons and shields quickly if you're not used to it, though if you put a belt on over it it will distribute a portion onto your hips.
   But it allows more freedom of movement than all but the best plate armours, not that they are particularly restrictive either.  And the protective value of mail is often highly underrated.  Or I should say "real" mail.  No mail can be "cut" or "broken", even decorative butted mail, and real mail was just as hard to break by piercing.  It even takes out a good portion of blunt damage.  It effectively turns cutting weapons into bludgeoning ones though (hence my house rule, the only damage that exceeds armour rating, except on the occasional common sense call, it blunt)

[spunky]

No mail can be "cut" or "broken", even decorative butted mail, and real mail was just as hard to break by piercing.  It even takes out a good portion of blunt damage.  It effectively turns cutting weapons into bludgeoning ones though (hence my house rule, the only damage that exceeds armour rating, except on the occasional common sense call, it blunt)

Saw a documentary on the National Geographic Channel, where they demo'd various weapon strikes against chain armor, style around 1200AD.  The weapon that did the most damage to the target dummy was easily the mace; not only did it leave the helmet with a wicked dent, it actually tore the rings apart of the mail.

Granted, the guy using the mace was on a horse at full gallop...

[ZenDog]

Hi,

I saw a documentary recently on British TV entitled 'The Genius of the Vikings' They were examining the factors that made the Vikings the superior military force of the day.  They took some samples of Viking mail to a police forensics lab at tested them using a machine the police use.  Basically it thrusts into the target with the equivalent force of a human blow.  

If I remember correctly, they tested a dagger, an arrowhead, a spearhead and possibly an axe slash and a sword thrust.  All of them pierced two types of Mail (different types of links/styles available in the period) and mail with leather under armour, on each occasion the weapons always pierced the mail.

I also saw a documentary on the UK History channel about Armours and armour by Professor Richard Holmes, he said that through out history (including modern warfare) no warrior has gone into battle carrying more than 75lbs in weight.
They also had some film of guys in full-pate mail (It looked like the later 13th C+ stuff) doing acrobatics (Ninja style flip-flaps) no problems.

Not pointing this a out to be argumentative of contrary to previous posters after all it's just stuff on TV (when it comes to History and archaeology 'Factual' is a bit of a misnomer).

[Jake Norwood]

In our (meaning mine and the ARMA's) tests, mail of the quality seen in arms collections dating from the 1400s and forward has been impossible to cut or stab with significant effect. The materials under the mail are often destroyed, however. I can provide more details if needed.

Jake

[ZenDog]

The Viking mail dates considerably earlier, so is likely made with fewer overlaps.  It was just an interesting aside.  The documentary was trying to determine what made the Vikings so superior in that time period; they tested Viking armour and weapons (wondering if it was better than the Saxon equivalent).

In the end they decided that it was the Viking religious fanaticism and warrior culture that made the difference, not any difference in the weapons.

Like I said I wasn't trying to be argumentative or contrary.  Chainmail was around for a long time I guess like all other military technology it went through a number of upgrades and improvements.

Anyway back to the topic any PC who lives in his Fullplate is just asking to be struck by lighting, pushed into ditches, ponds, streams, or perhaps have is purse nicked by unencumbered youths who are fleet of foot.

[ZenDog]

BTW Mr Norwood, Love your game! (Just got it on Monday).

[Crusader]

ZenDog, I don't know anything about the program you were watching, but I don't think and Viking-era mail survives in any kind of condition to be accurately tested for protective quality.  Talk with Erik Schmid about the weapon-resisting qualities of historical mail.  That man has forgotten more about mail armour than the rest of us will ever know.


As far as going about town in armour goes, what about a brigandine?  I think TROS needs some rules for these.  They were a very common armour in their day, and are perfect for wearing out in public.  In fact, I recall reading some inventories of clothing owned by a member of the De Medici family.  He had at least two or three garments that had been lined with 'lames of Milan steel" or were indicated as being 'of brigandine work'.  I can provide the necessary references if desired...

[Salamander]

ZenDog, I don't know anything about the program you were watching, but I don't think and Viking-era mail survives in any kind of condition to be accurately tested for protective quality.  Talk with Erik Schmid about the weapon-resisting qualities of historical mail.  That man has forgotten more about mail armour than the rest of us will ever know.

Heh, I have been wanting to get a maille byrnie from him for quite some time, but I do not have the mountain of money required to purchase such a fine piece from him. Some call him the most historically accurate maille worker of our time....

As far as going about town in armour goes, what about a brigandine?  I think TROS needs some rules for these.  They were a very common armour in their day, and are perfect for wearing out in public.  In fact, I recall reading some inventories of clothing owned by a member of the De Medici family.  He had at least two or three garments that had been lined with 'lames of Milan steel" or were indicated as being 'of brigandine work'.  I can provide the necessary references if desired...

I have mentioned the brigandine in my TFoB wish list. Mostly ring or coin brigandine would have been appropos and the finer lamellar work would have been the work done for, well, the fabulously wealthy.... like say... the De Medicis... :D

I have some numbers worked out for them at home if you would like them...

[contracycle]

As far as going about town in armour goes, what about a brigandine?  I think TROS needs some rules for these.  They were a very common armour in their day, and are perfect for wearing out in public.  In fact, I recall reading some inventories of clothing owned by a member of the De Medici family.  He had at least two or three garments that had been lined with 'lames of Milan steel" or were indicated as being 'of brigandine work'.  I can provide the necessary references if desired...

Perhaps, bu the Italian city-states are a special case IMO, with endemic conflict between the aristocracy and the commune, and then between the commune and the popolo.  So under those cirsumstances of a very restricted battlefield and serious opportunity for surprise attacks, seeing the rich and powerful armoured up is not that surprising.  But this should not be extended to all times and places, and wearing armour is still a signal that you consider yourself to be in danger, and its also unlikely to be extended to commoners with any frequency.

I think another aspect of considering the battlefield use of armour is that, rather like modern helmets designed to catch shrapnel, there is a high probability of being nicked by a weapon that is not necessarily a fuill strength blow landing on target.  Under such circumstances, armour would definately minimise incidental and accidental injuries sustained just be being on a field with a lot of pointy implements being waved about, and thus contribute to force preservation.  But I believe armour must have been penetrable, for there seem to be too many accounts of severe injuries inflicted despite armour, IIRC.

[Richard_Strey]

On the other hand, invisible armor -like a suede doublet lined with chain or a brigandine- could be *very* effective. A surprise attack would most likely aim for vital organs and then harmlessly hit the armor, while obvious protection would be worked around.