A Question about Sorcerer, Demons, and Humanity Loss

[JamesDJIII]

Forgive me if this material is covered elsewhere but in re-reading and re-reading Sorcerer, I think I understand the concept of humanity loss, but I'd like to hear from you guys.

As I understand it, the point behind Sorcerer (besides the fun of the icky stuff) is to examine the "utterly relevant" question the game describes (you want power? ok, here it is - what happens to you and your morality?).

Ok, so, now what I wanted to know is: why do sorcerous acts cause humanity loss? Is it becuase

1) all demons, in all the assocaited contexts of Sorcerer games, must be Evil (in acts they perform, desires, methods).
 
OR

2) demons, as defined by the game your are in, erode humanity because humanity is also carefully defined in relation to what the demons are/do.

I think that's the boiled down issue. I think it's #2 - that makes sense to me, but (and this is a compliment - I like economy) Ron's writing style doesn't spell this out. Unles I missed that paragraph.

Any thoughts? I'm all ears!

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya James,

It's #2 all the way!

The supplement The Sorcerer's Soul is, effectively, about the two-step going on among the following:

- the given game's localized definition of Humanity
- its "basic aesthetic" customization of demons, rituals, and similar
- how the Big Four Outcomes end up occurring in some fashion or another, to whatever extreme
- the essential wrong-doing of any sort, in the back-story or otherwise
- any (if any) "spiritual stuff" inherent to that particular game

They all go together, but in terms of affecting one another, not in the sense of a multi-lane highway.

Best,
Ron

[JamesDJIII]

Not to drive this thread into new thread ground - but I received Sex & Sorc. last night.

I'm still digesting it, but some tasy bits went down nicely. Once quote in particular, about what demons are, and your answer was a "disfunctional relationship." I take this to mean that in order to play a game of Sorcerer, demons must carry this property with whoever is trying to bind them/use them. And if not, are we just playing Devil Lords of Tampa, instead?

Also, what exactly constitutes a disfunctional realtionship in Sorcerer? Is this again defined by what ever makes up that particular game? Or is more like an attempt at pinpointing pornography - you know it when you see it?

[joshua neff]

0Also, what exactly constitutes a disfunctional realtionship in Sorcerer? Is this again defined by what ever makes up that particular game? Or is more like an attempt at pinpointing pornography - you know it when you see it?

What makes a dysfunctional relationship in Sorcerer? Pretty much the same things that make dysfunctional relationships in real life. You've got a relationship with this other person. They "need" you to do something for them on a regular basis, something that you may or may not find distasteful, but it brings you into conflict with your own humanity. In return, this other person does things for you, things that give you more power.

There are some threads in this forum on that very subject--the dysfunctional relationship between sorcerers & demons & how that relates to regular dysfunctional relationships--but I don't remember which they are.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

See More Sorcerer questions prompted by Willard.

Best,
Ron