Masses of followers

[droog]

Hello, Forge. I've been reading stuff here for a few weeks, mainly on this forum. I'd now like to ask a question, and I hope it's not a silly one.

I originally posted this on RPG.net, but received very few answers. Wulf Corbett was helpful, but I'd still like to see if anybody has any other views.

The HeroQuest rules indicate that all followers who join hero bands are to be paid for in HP (see example, p96). Now, hero bands can 'vary tremendously in size, from a few heroes to hundreds or even thousands of people' (p92). Who is paying the HP costs for this many followers?

In other words, is there a way of determining the numbers that flock to a hero band? At what point does the narrator just start saying 'X number NPCs join your hero band, paying their own HP costs'? If a player wanted a regiment of cavalry, how would you go about it?

Similarly, in the examples on pp92-4, Bill, Christine and Rick have 'signed the contract' and therefore get the benefit of the guardian's magic. Does this imply that they also paid HP to join the band?

Wulf replied that any number of followers could be covered by a relationship, thus that one could pay 1HP to get an army as a single retainer (for example). Is there anybody who has considered this?

Here's the link to the original thread, but there's not much there:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78645

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Welcome to the Forge!

The important thing to remember about Followers or any other HeroQuest ability is that their impact on play is exactly indicated by the number associated with them.

Say I were to have a Relationship defined as a huge nation, and my buddy has a Relationship defined as a small group of outlaws. Don't I have a huge "advantage" over him? Isn't that "unfair"? And what about (oh my God) balance?

But wait ... his score for his ability is 17, and so is mine. That means that for purposes of Advantage Points, augmentating, or straight rolling, his ability and mine are ... the same. If I draw on that Relationship to plead my case in court, it's the same "oomph" as when he draws on his to boost his chances of cutting a deal with a shady ship captain.

Yes, details differ. My Relationship makes me eligible for (say) the dole line when I don't have a job. His gets him a swift and unofficial food source during the same period. But this distinction applies to any and all comparisons of similar abilities; they are useful or not useful, or carry this or that implication, in differing circumstances.

I like to think of the HeroQuest system (and the Sorcerer system, and The Pool, and Dust Devils, and InSpectres) as only existing in the context of a given situation and conflict. The character doesn't float in space, to be compared with other characters in the same lack of context. They operate in situations and do stuff, and in many cases, abilities have surprising utility in unexpected ways.

The point is that just because two characters have similar abilities, they do not have to be "equally effective" at all times and in all ways. In fact, such an expectation is fairly non-productive in terms of building and generating an exciting and emotionally-engaging story through play.

I think defining Relationships at different levels (group size) is a fine example, and that mentally disconnecting the magnitude of the group size from the magnitude of the actual score value is a very important concept for playing this game.

Best,
Ron

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi,

Both Ron and Wulf have good points. Except that they don't answer your original questions.

The term 'follower' has a very specific meaning in HeroQuest.

follower: A character attached to a hero and controlled by a player.

Yes, that's right. A follower is a retainer or a sidekick belonging to a hero (player character). The term 'follower' does not mean 'member of hero band'. Thus, when the rules say that you have to pay hero points for followers to join, this is what it means:

When your character joins a hero band, you must pay a hero point. Your followers are not automatically members of the band just because you are. If you want them to be members as well, you have to pay the cost for

each and every one of them as well.[/list:u]
This has nothing to do with relationships in general, or the fact that all retainers can be grouped together in one relationship ability. If your character has two retainers and a sidekick (3 followers), the total cost for them to join a hero band is 3 hero points.

If other people (i.e. narrator characters) want to join the band, the narrator can just say so: "Fifteen Bison Riders joins the band."

Similarly, in the examples on pp92-4, Bill, Christine and Rick have 'signed the contract' and therefore get the benefit of the guardian's magic. Does this imply that they also paid HP to join the band?

You must be a member of a hero band to benefit from its magic. It costs hero point(s) to join a hero band. Does that answer your question?

thus that one could pay 1HP to get an army as a single retainer (for example). Is there anybody who has considered this?

This part of your question is excellently answered by Ron, however.

[droog]

Thank you for your replies, gentlemen. I hope I'm not being too obtuse. Overall I'm very much with the HQ program, but there are just a few wrinkles I'd like to iron out to my own satisfaction.

The point is that just because two characters have similar abilities, they do not have to be "equally effective" at all times and in all ways. In fact, such an expectation is fairly non-productive in terms of building and generating an exciting and emotionally-engaging story through play.

I'm comfortable, ultimately, with large disparities in character abilities. I've been quite happy in the past, for example, to make a Pendragon knight into the leader of all the other PCs plus extras. I'd just like to find out how others might treat this situation, as I have two players who are interested in being leaders. It's not so much the fabled Balance I'm seeking, but to what extent such ambitions will intersect with the rules and Glorantha itself.

Eg, if I purchase Troop of Horse 13 (1HP), can I walk about with four retainers all the time, or should the narrator insist on only one retainer being extant at any one time? Or should it be entirely up to negotiation?

In another example, if I have a player whose character wants to raise an army to attack Furthest, should I just arbitrarily decide whether the required amount of warriors is available and willing? Or, indeed, allow the player to decide? Perhaps a mechanism similar to recruiting raiders (from Barbarian Adventures) could be used?

I take your point about abilities operating in context, but given that the Hero Wars are here, will a troop of soldiers not be useful in many, many situations? It's not abstract equity in character abilities I'm thinking of so much as the player's ability to affect the story and hog screen-time.

If other people (i.e. narrator characters) want to join the band, the narrator can just say so: "Fifteen Bison Riders joins the band."

How do you suggest I handle these Bison Riders? How do they relate to the leaders of the band (given that they are PCs)? As I say, I've done similar things in other games and I can handle it. I was just hoping that there might be a less arbitrary way of dealing with the situation, given HQ's strengths in this area.

I suppose that if players do not pay HP for their band members, those band members could be subject to narrator fiat as well. 'After that terrible battle, half your horsemen are dead and half drift away.'

You must be a member of a hero band to benefit from its magic. It costs hero point(s) to join a hero band. Does that answer your question?

Well, it's just that there is no mention of HP when the characters join, while in many other examples the HP costs are explicitly mentioned. Furthermore, when the players form the Tri Lambs, they must pay 1HP--would not that be 2HP if they had joined the travel agent's band (again, later they are charged 2HP instead of 3HP for their new band)? I was wondering if there was any provision for allowing certain functions of a guardian to affect associates (perhaps this is Hengal's 'only temporary' membership)?

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi,

Eg, if I purchase Troop of Horse 13 (1HP), can I walk about with four retainers all the time, or should the narrator insist on only one retainer being extant at any one time? Or should it be entirely up to negotiation?

Please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I think you have your definitions mixed up a bit. However, you are not being obtuse. You are asking good and relevant questions.

When it comes to followers, you pay a hero point cost per individual follower, but the relationship is free! See the Hero Improvement Cost table on page 96. So if you want four Cavalry Soldier retainers you pay one hero point for each retainer, but get the relationship Leader of Retainers 13 (or similar) for free.

Now, if you want a relationship with a large group of peope, I suggest that you treat them as a community.

Member of the Secret Society of the Jade Alchemist
King of the Aranwyth Tribe[/list:u]
A quick reminder of the three different kinds of relationships:

Followers (retainers and sidekicks)
Supporting characters (adversaries, allies, contacts, dependents, and patrons)
Communities (groups of people)

Only followers are controlled by the player, and even then a die roll may be necessary if you want them to do stuff they aren't qualified for (see 'Commanding Followers in Play,' p 85, and Follower Reluctance table on p. 86). Only with retainers can you have one relationship that covers all of them; sidekicks must each have a separate relationship. Even though the rulesbook is somewhat unclear regarding this, you need to separate between the follower himself and your hero's relationship to the follower.

Supporting characters can be treated as regular NPCs with whom your hero has a relationship. They are controlled by the narrator, just like any other NPC.

Communities are, well, communities. See below for an example of how to use communities. Communities and their members are played by the narrator.

In another example, if I have a player whose character wants to raise an army to attack Furthest, should I just arbitrarily decide whether the required amount of warriors is available and willing? Or, indeed, allow the player to decide? Perhaps a mechanism similar to recruiting raiders (from Barbarian Adventures) could be used?

Here's how I would handle a situation like that:

Hengal (HeroQuest, p. 16) is trying to raise an army to attack Furthest. We begin by looking at his relationships. since the people most likely to join him in a venture like this, are those close to him.

- Love Family 18
Hengal speaks to his famliy head, and asks for support: warriors for his army. He is asking for Extraordinary Support (see p.89-90); war is a serious business. Hengal rolls his Love Family vs the resistance indicated on page 90. His family consists of 20 adults, so the resistance is 5W + (total support bonus 6)/2=8W.

He needs Minor Victory or better to receive the support. If successful, the family let him lead their warriors into battle. How many warriors are members of his family? Well, its up to you, but I'd say no more than maximum 5% of the adult population. Maximum. So his family send one warrior... not much of an army. But, more importantly, Hengal can use the Extraordinary Support bonus of +3 as a bonus to his attempt to convince his League (see 'Support from Multiple Communities', page 91).

(Note: I usually determine the size of the various communities which the heroes have relationships to before we begin play. There are no hard and fast runes for that, it is up to you as a narrator. But the size of the community determines the resistance when asking for support, so it is probably a good thing to have it worked out in advance.)

- Loyal to League 18
Hengal rolls his Loyal to League (+3 for convincing his family, above) vs a resistance of, say, 15W (for a league with 500 adult members). If he is successful, he will get the backing of 25 trustworthy soldiers.

- Loyal to Warband 20
Hengal talks to his warband. Hm... lets say that they have 20 members or so. The resistance to get their support is 8W. A success gives him another 20 soldiers for his army. Yes, ther'e all soldiers, no kids, pregnant women or old people in this group.

- Member of Local Gerendetho Temple 18 (not listed on the sheet, but is included in his keyword)
Hengal also talks to his temple. As a narrator, I decide that they won't lend him any soldiers. Instead they will lend him the Goatheaded Helmet of Leadership, giving him a bonus to his ability to lead troops in battle. If he can convince them to support him, that is.

- Other communities
Hengal can try to convince other communities to join him in his war effort. Simply let him use his default ability rating of 6. Good luck, Hengal!

- Individuals
If you want to raise an army, you don't want to recruit soldiers one by one. Sure, Hengal can get more followers, or try to hire people in bars, but that will hardly get him the army he is looking for. He needs to target communities.

Quote:
If other people (i.e. narrator characters) want to join the band, the narrator can just say so: "Fifteen Bison Riders joins the band."

How do you suggest I handle these Bison Riders? How do they relate to the leaders of the band (given that they are PCs)? As I say, I've done similar things in other games and I can handle it. I was just hoping that there might be a less arbitrary way of dealing with the situation, given HQ's strengths in this area.

Every member of a band have a relationship to the band (Leader of [hero band], Member of [hero band], or whatever). Once the Bison Riders are members of the community, you should treat them like a part of the community. A player hero wants the band to act in a certain way? Let him use his Member of [band] ability. Is there another member of the band (PC or NPC) who wants something different? Have them pit their relationships against each other.

Quote:
You must be a member of a hero band to benefit from its magic. It costs hero point(s) to join a hero band. Does that answer your question?

Well, it's just that there is no mention of HP when the characters join, while in many other examples the HP costs are explicitly mentioned. Furthermore, when the players form the Tri Lambs, they must pay 1HP--would not that be 2HP if they had joined the travel agent's band (again, later they are charged 2HP instead of 3HP for their new band)? I was wondering if there was any provision for allowing certain functions of a guardian to affect associates (perhaps this is Hengal's 'only temporary' membership)?

Hm.... Read the paragraph right before the example you are talking about: It is about how narrator controlled hero bands can be used as an example for player heroes to follow. "These people get more powerful by being a hero band with a guardian and stuff. Cool, we'll do the same."

The example heroes do not join a hero band on page 92. They are just employed by a band. Therefore, they pay no hero point cost. Also, they don't have access to the guardian's functions. Therefore the Tri Lambs is their first hero band, not their second. If they had joined their employer's band, your hero point cost calculations above would have been correct, though.

Yes, I know, it isn't always 100% clear what the examples are examples of.

All the best,

/Peter Nordstrand

[droog]

First of all, Peter, thank you for your exhaustive explanation. I'm saving it to disc for future reference.

The example heroes do not join a hero band on page 92. They are just employed by a band. Therefore, they pay no hero point cost. Also, they don't have access to the guardian's functions. Therefore the Tri Lambs is their first hero band, not their second. If they had joined their employer's band, your hero point cost calculations above would have been correct, though.

But the next couple of examples ('Good Guardian' and Good Guardian Two') show the characters who 'signed the contract' getting warnings from the guardian. Que pasa?

[Peter Nordstrand]

Oh, crap ... you are right. I didn't read the example properly. Sorry. Supid me. I guess temporary members can benefit from the functions as well.  I think the example is a mess that leads to more questions than it answers.

Give me a day or so to read the examples more carefully. Something is most definitely wrong here.

One quick thought, though: A narrator is always at liberty to give player heroes stuff without them having to pay anything for it.

Cheers,

/Peter N

[Mac Logo]

One quick thought, though: A narrator is always at liberty to give player heroes stuff without them having to pay anything for it.

Don't you mean without warning them that the bill is in the mail? Evil narrator cackling ensues. "I thought you wanted 50 Shargashi warriors camping in your fields. Your chief doesn't look very happy."

Anyway, I think the example is quite clear. The party didn't abandon their first Hero Band - it came to a natural end as their contract finished. It says in Leaving A Hero Band, HQ p96

... The problem occurs each time a hero quits a band ... (my emphasis)

They abandoned the Tri-Lamb Guardian by not keeping up with it's requirements, but left their first band on good terms after completely fulfulling their short-term contract. Therefore they only get penalised for the Tri-Lambs.

Graeme

[droog]

But does that mean that they got charged HP for that temporary membership? Especially since the example on p92 does not mention HP at all?

I did think that I read somewhere that employees of a hero band could benefit from guardian functions, but damned if I can find it again.

[Mac Logo]

Droog,

p95: Membership Requirements. 2nd paragraph.

... no one can join for free. You must spend hero points seperately for your hero and each of his followers...

I see no reason not to charge the hero point cost, even though the example doesn't explicitly say so. It was a half year contract with benefits.

Graeme

[Donald]

I take your point about abilities operating in context, but given that the Hero Wars are here, will a troop of soldiers not be useful in many, many situations? It's not abstract equity in character abilities I'm thinking of so much as the player's ability to affect the story and hog screen-time.

I would make this a game matter. Firstly where are these soldiers from and why are they following the hero? A petty noble could afford such out of his own pocket if he chooses - mercenaries, feudal retainers or whatever. Secondly I would look at potential plot lines - mercenaries need paying and are likely to go off to another employer if the rewards are better or the risks lower, feudal retainers mean feudal obligations both to protect the hero's land and to support his liege lord. As the strength of the force increases so do the obligations.

For affecting the story and hogging the action remember retainers don't usually act independently. They are there to support the hero so the fact that they go off somewhere and get drunk is only an issue if you as narrator decide the hero has to bail them out of jail.

In the context of hero bands and guardians I would tend to let them join without charging hero points provided the guardian provided there's a decent set of obligations to balance the benefits. The examples given in the rules seem to me to be bands formed to give the players extra magic rather than for them to make a commitment to a cause or storyline. So the hero who wanted to lead a cavelry regiment would have to build up his abilities and relationships so he got appointed and even then would be obligated to perform the duties and follow orders to remain in post. The player would have to spend a lot of hero points building up skills and relationships but just one to join the regiment and one to cement each promotion.

How do you suggest I handle these Bison Riders? How do they relate to the leaders of the band (given that they are PCs)? As I say, I've done similar things in other games and I can handle it. I was just hoping that there might be a less arbitrary way of dealing with the situation, given HQ's strengths in this area.

I would say why the Bison riders are joining the band which will indicate whether they are likely to stay after the adventure. If they are the players can cement them as followers. Usually there will be an in game obligation on the heros to retain their support.

[Mac Logo]

I see no reason not to charge the hero point cost, even though the example doesn't explicitly say so. It was a half year contract with benefits.

It also occurs to me that if it was free, then they would all have joined.
I would probably let those that did sign up, rejoin without cost, unless they did something in the future that would prejudice the organisation (or guardian) against them. Give them a relationship, after all they've been good employees and will be remembered.

Graeme

[RaconteurX]

Mr. Nordstrand has it correct... in HeroQuest, large groups like hero bands, military companies, etc. should be handled as Communities rather than Followers. The leaders of those groups are wonderful Retainers and Sidekicks, though, presuming that they are the heroes' lieutenants. They (the leaders) make great Patrons or Allies otherwise.

[Mike Holmes]

Good point, Mike. I'm looking forward to seeing mass combat at some point. I envision it like this, potentially:

It's an extended conflict between the two commanders (assuming one is a PC). Their armies merely lend community support to each commander. The result of the conflict will tell how badly the character's Ability rating to command those troops is affected. Representing casualties, and/or lack of confidence in the leader as is appropriate. "Healing" represents the wounded healing, or new recruits, or whathaveyou. Pretty nifty, eh?

Anyone see a problem with doing it that way?

Mike

[Peter Nordstrand]

Anyone see a problem with doing it that way?

No problem, but don't forget to check out Mass Efforts on page 183.

Cheers,

/Peter N