DM-therapy!

[Tomas HVM]

Hi,

I've translated one of the minor RPGs of mine to English, and posted it on my site. It's a short read. Please comment!

Pervo
If you are a games master, you should read this. If you need to relax with some hardcore violence; if you need to get even with your players; if you need to pump up your abilities as a DM, please try Pervo. Pervo RPG is great therapy for flustered game masters. I promise you will never be the same game master, after playing Pervo!

You will find it here:
http://www.fabula.no/pervoEng.html

It's free! It's hardcore! it's violent and sexy! And it's to be played with a lot of players (10-20).

Go for it!

[Mike Holmes]

What would you like comments on?

It looks to me like this is a (slightly, but not really elaborate) joke. That is, the thought of playing such a game is supposed to make the GM feel better or something. You don't actually think that people will play this, do you? Doing so would then require you to write a game for players go get back at GMs, then. ;-)

Anyhow, as it's not playable, I guess it would be classified as a "Thought Game" or Gedanken Experiment. As such, it makes a very limited statement about how GM's sometimes feel. I suppose that a frustrated GM could show it to players in order to display their feelings, but I think that they'd be better off talking. Because the game doesn't tell anyone why the GM is unsatisfied, just that he is.

Interestingly, more refined versions of this show up at Cons all the time. The game is played in various manners and under different names (I remember one "Death Ring" game). In the versions that I've seen, the players gather in a large ring, allowing any passeby to join on a whim. The GM (or GMs, sometimes the do tag-team) stands in the middle points to a player who then hops into the ring. The GM presents some situation, often the same as the last player's, and the player must instantly respond with what the character is doing (hesitation is instant death in most cases). The GM usually finds some quick way to kill the character by fiat: "When you open the door, a 2 ton anvil drops on your head and kills you." That player then leaves the ring, and the GM selects another victim.

Some of these seem to have a goal, such that players learning from the deaths of prior players seem to get farther. In most cases, clever responses earn anything from extended play time, to instant death for having thwarted the GM. In some cases, there seems to be no point to play other than seeing what interesting ways the GMs can come up with to kill characters, and potentially to see how large a death count they can rack up in the allotted time.

Anyhow, is your game supposed to be tongue in cheek like this? If that's understood, that's actually playable. But I'm still not sure what the point is, precisely of your version. Why the paper, etc?

Mike

[Tomas HVM]

What would you like comments on?

Comments? Why, nothing else than how you like the idea, possibly. I've made a game, and seriously would like people to try it out.

You don't actually think that people will play this, do you?

Mike; I know for a fact that people will play this. people have paid me to write down the rules on a napkin, just to be sure they did not forget the essentials of this game. People want to play this game! A lot of people have played it, and enjoyed it. Try to understand why...

Anyhow, as it's not playable,

I'm sorry to say that you do not know what you are talking about. The game is playable, and it is quite efficient in design, the design pertaining to the goals of the game. The goals are twofold; directed at both the GM, and the player.

On the other hand; I may have duped Mike into believing that the game is what it present itself to be. The text on and in the game on what it's philosophical basis and practical aim is, is not to be taken at face value. You have to read this game very carefully, and play it with no care at all, to get the point. And you will not get the point only by reading it (not Mike, anyhow). It is not a "Thought Game". It must be played.

The arguments presented by Mike, on how the game relates to the GM, is totaly off target.

Interestingly, more refined versions of this show up at Cons all the time.

Interestingly, Mike goes on after this rather arrogant presumption, to describe "games" of no refinement, and not even close to what Pervo is.

Pervo may seem unrefined, but I assure you; it has given me and others some very "refined" experiences, and raw. The game-text and design is deceptive, and meant to be. The gameplay is both fun, obnoxious and thought-provocing. Mike should read it anew, and try it out properly, before he jumps to conclusions.

I'm still not sure what the point is,

Why then, are you so sure in your characteristics of it? How can you talk about "more refined versions" of a game you admit not to understand? You have clearly misunderstood the whole point of it, even to the degree that you can't perceive the real and simple playability of the game.

[Gordon C. Landis]

Well, you asked for reaction/comments . . .

"Interesting game.  The only winning move is not to play."

Though I suppose a GM who's able to make each death interesting and/or amusing might hold some folks attention for a while.  Not mine, though.  I feel like reading the game provides me everything I need - and it was an interesting and/or amusing read.  Giving the DM the power to take Cleverness from one player and bestow it upon others is an interesting little twist to get the players in "keep the DM happy, no matter the cost to others" mode, but most people will see through it fairly quickly, I'd think.  Rule Three, even if kept secret, will become obvious before long.

<inserting tounge into cheek> I would like to know a bit more about Zader, Mazorg, and/or Zader-Mazorg.  If they have a position on the afterlife, I might be able to continue to play my character after he gets killed - that might make actual play more interesting to me.  A supplement, maybe? <smile>

Gordon

[Tomas HVM]

Well, you asked for reaction/comments . . .

Yes, and though I consider Mike to be totally off the mark in this instance, I do appreciate him taking the time to reflect upon the game.

Though I suppose a GM who's able to make each death interesting and/or amusing might hold some folks attention for a while.  Not mine, though.  I feel like reading the game provides me everything I need - and it was an interesting and/or amusing read.  

Thank you! And certainly; I do not expect everyone to be thrilled by such a game.

The GM is not required to make each death interesting. He is only required to kill the characters, making it gory. He may repeat himself or make bad descriptions as much as he wants to, in Pervo.

However: actual play show that when you have murdered a handful of characters, the players start to catch on, and begins to participate in the grotesqueries, murdering eachother (possibly with the intention of being the last one standing, or avoiding conflict with the all-deadly NPC). That's when the game get's interesting.

Giving the DM the power to take Cleverness from one player and bestow it upon others is an interesting little twist to get the players in "keep the DM happy, no matter the cost to others" mode, but most people will see through it fairly quickly, I'd think.  

Yes. And the game is usually played in an open mode. I myself usually explain the three rules before game start, in short. It's the garishness of the descriptions, and the obnoxity by which you expell players, that come as a surprise to most participants.

I would like to know a bit more about Zader, Mazorg, and/or Zader-Mazorg.  A supplement, maybe?

Originally this was a supplement, now worked in as a part of the "core-game". There's another supplement, giving the method for playing Pervo with a normal game group (3-6 players). It's called "Pervo Ped", and leans heavily on some kind of psychotic pedagogy. Earned me a mark as Norways best GM back in the early nineties, that supplement did (broad smile).

I may add that "enthusiasm" is one key tool for the GM in Pervo. Be overly enthusiastic about the gore, and make the world come alive in a kind of enthusiastic minimalism. Add elements at your own whim, craft the existing elements rudely and crudely, and smite the players with your enthusiasm.

[Mike Holmes]

Comments? Why, nothing else than how you like the idea, possibly. I've made a game, and seriously would like people to try it out.

If you check the sticky at the top of the forum, you'll note that it indicates that it's good form to ask specific questions. I was only trying to help you get better feedback by asking what you were looking for.

Note how simply asking for "comments" got comments that weren't useful to you from me. Not that I wasn't trying.

You don't actually think that people will play this, do you?

Mike; I know for a fact that people will play this. people have paid me to write down the rules on a napkin, just to be sure they did not forget the essentials of this game. People want to play this game! A lot of people have played it, and enjoyed it. Try to understand why...

I guess I'm being dense. I can see why a GM might want to run it, but I can't see why players would want to play it. I really don't see the point. But, hey, that's probably just me. Could you lay it out for me so that I get it?

Interestingly, more refined versions of this show up at Cons all the time.

Interestingly, Mike goes on after this rather arrogant presumption, to describe "games" of no refinement, and not even close to what Pervo is.

To clarify, by "refined", I mean, narrowed down. Less broad, as in the refining that's done to oil to make kerosene. Not better, neccessarily, except possibly for their specific goals. I meant no insult by the use of the term, certainly.

I seem to have incensed you. I was merely trying to get some discussion of the concept going. I hope that by not taking your insults to heart, you can see that I'm being earnest.

Mike

[Tomas HVM]

I guess I'm being dense. I can see why a GM might want to run it, but I can't see why players would want to play it.

Well, they do, by some reason. Maybe roleplayers are a bit more open to experiments than we usually believe them to be? Or maybe they always appreciate a good gore? Or is it the novelty of a GM trying to get rid of you? I don't know, actually, but it works!

To clarify, by "refined", I mean, narrowed down. ... Not better, neccessarily, except possibly for their specific goals. I meant no insult by the use of the term, certainly.

I'm sorry, but I felt a bit insulted by it, yes, and could not understand why you would post such an arrogant statement. Thank you for the clarification.

But still you are wrong: pervo is more narrow in focus than the games you refer to, and got something the haphazard convent-game usually don't have. By applying Pervo in the right way, with the right amount of audacity and enthusiasm, you may release feelings and powers in the players not normally let free under a roleplaying session. This is especially true for players of an academic persuation, but pertains to most types of players, actually. And it is hilarious fun, for both players and GM.

I seem to have incensed you. I was merely trying to get some discussion of the concept going. I hope that by not taking your insults to heart, you can see that I'm being earnest.

Yes, your answer did provoke me, and I answered in the same tone I perceived you to write in, even though I tried to curb my pen. Sorry!

[Mike Holmes]

I guess I'm being dense. I can see why a GM might want to run it, but I can't see why players would want to play it.

Well, they do, by some reason. Maybe roleplayers are a bit more open to experiments than we usually believe them to be? Or maybe they always appreciate a good gore? Or is it the novelty of a GM trying to get rid of you?

To clarify, then, do the players actively try to thwart the GM's intentions, or are they "complicit" in the attempts to off their own characters? Given the GM authority to do what he likes, it seems to me that competition is out of the question on the player level. Or have I missed something again?

But still you are wrong: pervo is more narrow in focus than the games you refer to, and got something the haphazard convent-game usually don't have. By applying Pervo in the right way, with the right amount of audacity and enthusiasm, you may release feelings and powers in the players not normally let free under a roleplaying session. This is especially true for players of an academic persuation, but pertains to most types of players, actually. And it is hilarious fun, for both players and GM.

To be even more specific, by refined I meant efficient. That is, these convention games usually take no longer than 30 seconds or so to kill of a character if that (else they'd never get through all the players). In Pervo, it seems that the characters might last a little longer - must be, given that they can kill other characters. It seems that there's supposed to be something that happens in Pervo in the interrim. That said, I'm a little fuzzy on what that's supposed to be.

Could you give an example of play? Again, this is probably a strength of the design, but I'm just not getting it. Certainly the absurdity of the Con games in terms of character lifespan detracts potentially from some of the effect.

OTOH, it seems to me that the energetic enthusiasm is exactly what the Con games are all about. Everybody stands. Everything is shouted so that the whole crowd can hear. Players fall to the ground flailing when they're "killed". So, from that POV it seems very similar to what you describe.

Mike

[Tomas HVM]

To clarify, then, do the players actively try to thwart the GM's intentions, or are they "complicit" in the attempts to off their own characters? Given the GM authority to do what he likes, it seems to me that competition is out of the question on the player level. Or have I missed something again?

The players are in all respects normal, in a game of Pervo. They only come in one model; trying to keep their character alive as long as possible. Many players perceive initiative to be very dangerous in this game, and tend to develop a passive "wait and see" attitude. This perceived danger is indeed true, but only in the initial stages of the game. As the game develops, the passive characters are much more likely to take the brunt of the GM (Godman), and the other characters.

Pervo caters for very sharp and direct competition between players when the initial stages is over with. In an environment laden with doom such competition is very easily pushed towards the bloody and violent mode, and then pushed some more... into a gory paraphrase on sado-masochism. The GM stop his wanton killings, and leave the players to off eachothers characters in spectacular ways, and preferably dying with grace.

Pervo may be characterized as a "joyful carnival of death".

It seems that there's supposed to be something that happens in Pervo in the interrim. That said, I'm a little fuzzy on what that's supposed to be.

That's the reason you got to have so many players; otherwise the game would be over in an instant. When the inital killings are done with, the leftover players tend to get the idea. They usually take  the cues given by the GM, going on about Zader and Mazorg at each death. So they try to start their own killing spree, perceiving that the one murdering the others will be the one surviving to the end.

Then the thruth sinks in; that there is no "surviving" this game. There is only "ways to go", so it's not necessarily killing that makes the day, it is dying with grace. That is; soon the players understand that it is essential to enjoy your own pain, lick your own wounds, and meet your death with jubilation! That is when the game gets really interesting...

I've seen players of Pervo praying for their characters death, by the hands of other characters, in very creative and convincing ways. This may happen in other games also, of course, but the fervor by which such prayers are delivered is special for Pervo.

And I've seen players banging their heads against the window, very hard, repeatedly, in a hilarious celebration of the pain inflicted upon their characters. It's all about violence, enthusiasm, and fervor!

A deep lesson
I think it is popular amongst roleplayers, being mostly young men, because it delivers them from their throes of deeply rooted anxiety. The con-games you describe is popular for the same reason, but Pervo does this so much more efficient and true.

It has the same effect on game masters, and that is the reason I use it as a tool in my seminars on game mastery. Pervo is a tool used to release them from the anxiety of disgruntled players. It delivers into their hands the power to be real masters of chaos. I tell them you have to be brutal and ruthless in the face of your players, and when facing your own anxiety of failure. All GMs are expected to confront chaos, and will do this the better if not hampered by neurotic second thoughts.

That's the lesson to be had from Pervo.

[Anthony I]

Tomas,

Could you post an example of actual play?  I must be missing something, because I can't even begin to see how this plays.  I've read the rules- twice- and I just don't "get it".  What is theraputic about this?  How is embracing your death and pain interesting, or even remotely fun?  How is dying by capricious whim done so that it is fun?

I think an example of actual play would definitely help me to understand this better.  Would you be willing to post an example?

[Tomas HVM]

I've posted the initial post of this thread on RPGnet too, and it's interesting to see the difference in response.

The lack of response here speaks volumes, of course; this is not the kind of game endorsed by the average members of the Forge.

The response given by Mike and Anthony is bothered with understanding the concept. It seems to be very important for them to picture the game before entering into it.

I propose another way: happily entering the unknown! Boldy go where men has gone before, on their recommendation! It may function when you actually do it!

"Understanding" is not all! The real experience will tell!

(however: you may go to the page again now, as I have entered a new link at the bottom, on "perverted philosophy")

[Rich Forest]

Tomas,

I don't know--I think you might be misinterpreting what's going on here.  The lack of responses that you cite isn't necessarily as revealing as you might think.  I've seen a lot of games get a lot less responses here in Indie Design.  It's not the most active board at the Forge, and "me too" posts are rare.  So if someone has already said what I'd say, then I don't post to add any comments.  See what I mean?

The other thing that's going on here, though, is that this forum is really for helping people design games by giving them feedback.  It's not really meant to be a "look what I did" kind of forum, and that is perhaps a more likely reason for Mike and Anthony's comments.  They're coming at this from a, "what feedback can I give" standpoint.  You seem to be posting the game not really wanting feedback.  In that case, I'm not sure this is the best forum for the post.  In contrast, your post on RPG.net is getting more responses in shorter time because the design forum there has a different focus.

So would Mike or Anthony try out this game, if proposed in their game group or at a con?  Maybe, maybe not.  Their comments here in the design board aren't really indicative of that.  Sure, Mike says, "I don't see the point."  That's him talking from a design standpoint, not a play standpoint, if you see what I mean.  

Sure, it's interesting and humorous.  As presented, it seems really to be about forcing players and GMs to think about some aspects of RPGs that are often implicit.  In that respect, it might have been more successful as a post in RPG Theory.  But as a post here, you really need to think about what help you want on the game.  If you don't want any help, and if the design is already finished and you have no intention of making changes,  then it's not a post for Indie Design, in my understanding.  

Rich

[Tomas HVM]

Hi Rich,

I do appreciate responses, as stated before, even if they are negative or lacking in understanding of my designer goals. Although I may seem reluctant to listen to critique, I always do, and use it to turn my eyes on my designs in new ways. I never consider a design of mine "complete", although I usually prefer to present it as such, and fight heroically to defend it. There is always room for refinement. So it is useful for me to post something like Pervo here, and to meet some unmitigated critique (and misunderstandings are always a sign that the design is lacking in some respect).

I also consider it a contribution to other gamesmiths, to give them such a game to read. It may help them in ways more subtle than answering their queries on ongoing projects. This also makes it relevant as a posting here.

I prefer to post something like Pervo under the "design"-flag, rather than under the "theory"-flag. A complete game, discussed and dissected, speaks volumes on the relation between game goals and practical design. That is certainly relevant in a designers context.

I hope you understand this point of view, Rich, and may respect that this is my sincere intentions, and as I perceive them; quite in tune with the ramifications of this forum.

Your point on what the lack of posts signify is noted. You may very well be right. I'm new to this group, so my insight in this sphere is limited. I made a speculation, based on very limited material.

[Cemendur]

I have been watching both threads. I still don't see the point of actually playing this game.

O.K., with another approach, I do see the point of it as a "thought experiment".  I especially like the use of meta-game elements that borderline "happenings" or Andy Kaufman or Situationist Theory, esp. the chapter on roles in "The Revolution of Everyday Life". Either that or it is, a la, Kaufman making fun of those of use who "read to much into something".

O.k., I'll quit while I am behind.

[Jasper]

Thomas,

You said:

Pervo is a tool used to release them [GMs] from the anxiety of disgruntled players.

I don't know quite what you mean here.  What, as you perceive it, is the benefit of playing Pervo for the GM, and for the players (is there one for the players)?  You said you use Pervo as a tool in your workshops...what kinds of people do you have play Pervo, and what are the effects, do you think?