First Post - Archery Question

[Ingenious]

Well, this is my first post so I'll be brief.
Now, since I lack the funds to buy the book, I'd like to know how detailed the rules are for mounted archery? If there is just a -2 MP penalty for that, shouldn't that be expanded for different speed that a horse can move? Say, for a trot, gallop, etc.

[Brian Leybourne]

(Split because the old topic was over a month old so should not be posted to - please see the forum guidelines sticky if you're wondering what I'm talking about).

The archery rules themselves are pretty detailed, but you're right that archery from horsetop only carries a few penalties. As to whether there should be more, I look forward to peoples opinions.

P.S: Welcome to the forum.

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

From the rulebook, page 87, revised edition: Drawbacks of mounted combat - Missile weapons: -1 MP when stationary, -2 when moving at a walk, -5 when galloping.

I would also disallow or severely penalize long-bows being fired from horseback. I might also reduce the penalty by one for bows specifically made to be fired from horseback, such as the Mongolian horsebows, which were, I believe, essentially composite bows shaped in such a way that the mount did not interfere overmuch with the draw of the bow.

Likewise from the book, (and THIS is actually a hefty bonus.. A bit more hefty than I'd realized..) page 163 revised, Tataar and Krymean bonuses: -2 Riding Skill, negate missile weapon penalties for firing a bow from horseback).

I think I'd have to nerf this just a bit. I would probably limit that negation to 2 points, So they'd have no penalties for firing stationary or moving at a walk, but would still have a -3 for galloping, and would allow it to stack with the reduced penalty for horsebows, which would reduce that galloping penalty to a mere -2 MP, which is still fairly sizeable.

[Ingenious]

Well I just talked it over with the GM running the game I'll be in and he came up with this: Someone steals my opium and is 100 yards away... gallup -5 dice, on horseback +3 dice (destrier quality horse is +3 rather than +2 right?) and trying to retrieve my recently boosted opium gives me a +2(SA), which gives me 7 dice to throw and depending upon the range, the ATN can be anywhere from 6-8, given that the range at release point is 10-30 yards or so. And also I could slow the horse down from a full gallop to a trot to make the initial penalty a -2, which still might not do anything depending on what my maximum MP is. Or so I'm lead to beleive.
See if this hypothetical situation seems right in your mind.
And the penalties IMO should be greater for someone with less horsemanship experience, i.e. possibly factoring in one's riding proficiency..

Another thing, how far can one throw a javelin from horseback?

[Lance D. Allen]

First thing that I'd shoot down, were it in my game, is the +2/+3 bonus. I'm assuming it is coming from the height advantage portion of mounted combat, which would not, in my mind, apply to ranged combat, only melee.

As for Riding Skill: I'd make someone roll to see if they could fire at all from a moving horse, but they'd not get any bonuses or reduced penalties. Alternately, if you insist upon it, every 2 successes beyond the first on a riding test can reduce the penalty from firing from a moving mount by 1.

Also, remember that your maximum MP only applies if it is less than your Wits, or you take several rounds to aim before firing.

As for javelins, I wouldn't add any range from horseback. The height difference would be fairly small in determining added range. Use what's standard from the book.

All my own take on things, YMMV.

[Ingenious]

Well the argument about nixing the height advantage for missile combat is good, I have just one point to make for that. If you shoot from a higher spot than what your target is on, the trajectory of said missile is flatter, and hence it 'should' be easier to hit someone. Same can be said of horses in that situation that can be said of towers, walls, hills, etc. This of course is not including the speed factor: i.e. when a jet aircraft is travelling at a supersonic speed, and it shoots a gun, the speed of both the plane and the bullet are cumulative are they not? Not only do bullets travel faster than the speed of sound when fired from a stationary position, but they'd be travelling much faster if aforementioned gun firing said bullet say, had a rocket strapped to its ass. (This of course is an exagguration of what happens when you fire a missile from a horse travelling faster than you would firing from stationary) It might even be smart to say that a missile fired from a running horse has that much more momentum, who knows? I'm obviously no math of physics professor here. As far as I know about my MP and wits, I do not know as I have neither A. the book, or B. my character sheet.

[Lance D. Allen]

I acknowledge that height is important. I simply believe that the height afforded by being mounted on a horse is negligible when it comes to ranged combat. I might allow such things as being able to pick a target from a massed melee, which wouldn't otherwise be possible (or at least exceedingly difficult) but I wouldn't give any sort of bonuses to hit.

Likewise, I don't think that the velocity of the arrow is as much a point as you'd think, though I'll concede that it would have it's applications. The added speed from firing from a dead-gallop wouldn't add enough to the arrow to warrant any sort of bonuses there, either.

You and your Seneschal should feel free to add or not add any bonuses that you feel make sense, but these are the way I would handle the situations you describe.

As for your example of jets and machine guns I will mention this: There is a reason why the machine guns on jets are so powerful; If the bullet isn't traveling at a higher velocity than the jet as it leaves the barrel of the weapon, the jet will overrun it, and that's bad. In such cases, I imagine that the added velocity from the jet is still fairly negligible, when you realize how fast the bullet is traveling to begin with. The former part was explained to me by someone who had a hand in designing modern fighter jets. the latter is supposition based off of that information.

[LordSmerf]

I would also disallow or severely penalize long-bows being fired from horseback.

I would take issue with this.  It should be noted that the Japanese horse bow (the name of which escapes me at the moment) was around 7 feet (2 meters) long.  It wasn't really practical to use dismounted because it relied on the height of the horse to keep it off the ground.  I'm not sure how well it could be used while moving or galloping, just that it was pretty effective while stationary.

Thomas

[Brian Leybourne]

I agree with Lance that the added momentum of a horse added to an arrow doesn't make much difference.

But, the question was not of an arrow, but a javelin. In this case, I would add range, because the speed an arm can throw a javelin is not really that much, and the added momentum of a horse at gallop would be noticable, thus adding to the overall range (because it's going faster). With the actual range remaining constant (if it's a stationary target) I would possibly even punch up the damage by +1 for the added momentum, actually.

Brian.

[Snikwas]

I would add range, because the speed an arm can throw a javelin is not really that much, and the added momentum of a horse at gallop would be noticable, thus adding to the overall range (because it's going faster)

This ignores the fact that most of the power for throwing a javelin comes from the legs and hip rotation. These are hampered when throwing from horseback. I doubt the added momentum from the horses speed would counter the less effective technique of the throw. The benefits of throwing from horseback are the height advantage and mobility.

The mobility means a mounted javelineer can release his weapon from a closer range against infantry as it is easier to evade the enemy. The height advantage means the throw can be flatter, therefore, more accurate and powerful.

[deltadave]

I wouldn't add range, but would use the horses ST if moving quickly (faster than a trot).

[Ingenious]

Okay, I digress. You all have made your points very clear. Insightful they were, as I have much confusion over physics and that sort of thing.. Of course it would be that much more clear were I to buy the book, which I can now afford... though there might not be a chance for it to get here in time for the first game session on the 22nd.

Oh well, learn as I go I suppose.

[Brian Leybourne]

Ingenious,

There's a fair to good chance it'll get to you in time, as long as you get your order in by the weekend (it'll be shipped on Monday). We always quote two weeks for shipping, but domestic US orders are often much faster.

Regards,
Brian.

[Ingenious]

Well then I guess I'll order since I can now financially afford it. I don't know how off the subject I can get but I'll damn sure try. So Brian, you're a PC tech right? I've just spent $400 trying to get one of now two processors to work on my damned computer I'm building(reason for the whole in my budget), and neither want to work, my mobo diagnostic LED says that I have broken or incompatible cpu chips.. so my next question is can you recommend a good mobo/chip combo that's easy on my wallet?(and hopefully works with an agp 8x vid card and pc3200 ddr-400 ram?)
I've sunk more than $1600 into this project and all I have to show for it is parts and a nice looking case. *grumble*

Any thoughts on this would be more than welcome.

[Brian Leybourne]

Uh yeah, that's off topic. Drop me an email if you like.