Spell aging question

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

Given that spell casting can cause instant physical aging, what is the effect of instant aging on a spell caster going through puberty, pregnancy, or menopause?

Cheers

[Brian Leybourne]

Heh, that's the first time I have seen this, and I thought I had seen "all the questions" on here, by now.

The consensus around here is that the body physically ages, but that the character does not experience the aging in a "sped-up-film" sense.

Thus, the stress of the spellcasting has aged the body and grown the hair and fingernails, but food in the stomach is still there and still digesting, etc (otherwise even a month's aging would instantly kill any character from lack of food, water and sleep.

So, to answer your questions specifically:

Puberty
Well, I guess the body goes through the changes it otherwise should for puberty (pubic hair grows, testies drop, etc) but things like pimples don't immediately leap out of the face.

Pregnancy
I say the baby doesn't age and suddenly come to term, but remains at whatever "stage" it already was (the mother ages but the baby doesn't). The effects on a developing foetus of the mothers body suddenly aging are up to the Seneschal and he's encouraged to be devious :-)

Menopause
See Puberty.

One day when we do Sorcery and the Fey, I must see to it that we put in a section clarifying aging etc.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Brian.

[toli]

Thus, the stress of the spellcasting has aged the body and grown the hair and fingernails, but food in the stomach is still there and still digesting, etc (otherwise even a month's aging would instantly kill any character from lack of food, water and sleep.

What does aging do to weight?  I would suspect that one would lose weight.  If the spell casters hair and finger nail grow the mass (at least) must come from some where...(ok, so its not that much weight).

NT

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

The consensus around here is that the body physically ages, but that the character does not experience the aging in a "sped-up-film" sense.

Thus, the stress of the spellcasting has aged the body and grown the hair and fingernails, but food in the stomach is still there and still digesting, etc (otherwise even a month's aging would instantly kill any character from lack of food, water and sleep.

I think that it's the hair/fingernail detail (which I like, BTW) that causes an issue. I can see the problem of saying "your character ages but there is no physical change, losing (X) months from your lifespan..." as it loses the immediacy. Many would voluntarily exchange their old age in order to gain a benefit in the present. However, by instantly transporting the character (X) months along their lifespan there are other issues. Hair and fingernails grow, indicating that the body is experiencing the aging. What then for menstruation? Wound healing? Memory? These things are unaffected? Why?

The mage casts a spell. She is unable to defend her body from the spell. The spell takes a measure of energy from her lifesource in order to power itself (as a kind of "path of least resistance", where the spell usually powers itself from another external source as the mage usually defends herself?). This ages her, Dorian Gray style. Is that the idea?

Cheers

[kenjib]

Pregnancy
I say the baby doesn't age and suddenly come to term, but remains at whatever "stage" it already was (the mother ages but the baby doesn't). The effects on a developing foetus of the mothers body suddenly aging are up to the Seneschal and he's encouraged to be devious :-)

A post-menopausal woman can have a donor (or otherwise externally created) embryo implanted and go through pregnancy.  Extrapolating from this, the only likely risks would be the risks typically associated with pregnancy at an older age - increased chances of gestational diabetes and pre-clampsia (high blood pressure related) for the mother, increased down's syndrome and other disorders for the child, the mother is at higher risk of complications during childbirth, etc.  You can find plenty of info on age & pregnancy via Google.

[kenjib]

I think of it more like a transmutation than high-speed aging.  You don't experience the years, but rather magically transform to the state you would be in at the new age.

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

Extrapolating from this, the only likely risks would be the risks typically associated with pregnancy at an older age - increased chances of gestational diabetes and pre-clampsia (high blood pressure related) for the mother, increased down's syndrome and other disorders for the child, the mother is at higher risk of complications during childbirth, etc.  You can find plenty of info on age & pregnancy via Google.

No disagreement on any of this.

OTOH, my original postulation concerned the effects of magical aging on a pregnant mage.

Cheers,

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

I think of it more like a transmutation than high-speed aging.  You don't experience the years, but rather magically transform to the state you would be in at the new age.

How do you justify the hair/fingernail growth within your own campaign, given it is a transmutation?

Cheers,

[Brian Leybourne]

Ian,

You're absolutely right, of course. Really, the hair and fingernail thing is there because it's cool more than any desire to have it be "logically right". That's my understanding anyway, you would have to ask Rick (who wrote the Sorcery chapter) to be 100% sure.

Really, it can all be written off as "it's magic", but for those of us who like a little more internal consistancy/logic/realism then yes, the hair and fgingernails don't really work.

Perhaps if we explain is thus:

The aging not prevented represents the portion of the magic that must be drawn from the sorcerers body directly (as apposed to from the phlogiston, the spirit world, or whatever other McGuffin you prefer; I use the spirit world myself) and this magic is drawn directly from the sorcerers life energy. The sorcerers body attempts to cope with this wracking invasion by pushing aspects of the body to age and thus provide the life energy that's being siphoned off. So, hair and fingernails grow, arteries and veins rupture, cells die off, skin wrinkles etc. The sum effect is that the character is physically a month (per success) older without having aged. This means that there's no danger of starvation etc, nor any danger to a foetus.

How's that?

Brian.

[Ian.Plumb]

The aging not prevented represents the portion of the magic that must be drawn from the sorcerers body directly...

Personally, I'd leave it at that. The effect is part of the unexplained mystery of magic. It manifests itself through selective physical signs of aging.

As far as the pregnancy scenario is concerned, I'd argue that the mage doesn't have the capacity to draw energy from the unborn child either voluntarily or involuntarily.

OTOH, you might want to consider the implications for triggered magics and curses. For instance if a mage has cast a protective spell that lasts a particular duration then perhaps the instant aging, being magical, should cause the duration to expire. If a mage has been hit by a time-based curse then again perhaps the curse should trigger instantly upon application of the spell aging penalty.

You've got to admire a game where you can play with the implications to this extent. : ^ )

Cheers,

[Brian Leybourne]

OTOH, you might want to consider the implications for triggered magics and curses. For instance if a mage has cast a protective spell that lasts a particular duration then perhaps the instant aging, being magical, should cause the duration to expire.

Ah, but then you could almost never get off any duration-based spell, since they last hours/days/weeks and even one failure on the aging roll will age you a month... :-)

Brian.

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

Ah, but then you could almost never get off any duration-based spell, since they last hours/days/weeks and even one failure on the aging roll will age you a month...

It depends.

If a mage casts a spell that affects themselves and lasts a duration (say, Nightvision or some such personal enhancement) then I think the duration should expire with any aging failure. That's part of the risk of casting the spell under those circumstances.

OTOH, if the wizard casts a spell that affects something external to themselves for a duration then whether the wizard ages or not shouldn't affect the duration of that spell.

Cheers,

[Mike Holmes]

Aging is the process of the body going through cellular cycling to the point where it ceases to be able to regenerate cells. It's intensely complicated, actually, and you could do a ton of research on it. The point, however, is that in order for the damage of aging to be done, you actually have to damage cells, and have them regenerate if they can. This normally occurs over time, and as the result of normal processes over time. What this means is that any description of the process that deals with it scientifically is doomed to fail unless you start picking and choosing which parts are aging, and which are not.

Fortunately this is magic. I think the solution lies with the fey.

The fey are only "immortal" in that they do not age normally. Hence, if the effect of a spell were to "age" a fey creature in terms of cellular cycling, they would experience no effect. BTW, there are some real world creatures that are sorta like this - some sharks and carp and other creatures don't experience the regeneration problems that humans (and most creatures) do over time. In any case, the point is that the process must have something to do with something other than aging as our science knows it.

The obvious answer is that it's in the soul. This seems to be where the magic comes from (and it's neat to think of SAs as a real in-game force), so why not make that assumption. Basically, humans have only so much soul, and it gets "weary" over time. This causes the body to experience age, outwardly. Fey do not get weary for whatever reason, normally. But when casting, they have the same chance of picking up this weariness of spirit as humans do. So they age the same amount as humans when something goes wrong with a spell.

This all goes along with my theory of Fey aging in an older thread. Fey basically actually age to, say, 18 years old, and then stays like that indefinitely. Humans age at the normal ratetheir whole lives. Either Fey or Humans who mess up with magic weary an amount instantly, which causes the aging.

In any case, the Aging, caused by the wearying process is not like normal aging. It's not a process of time passing, and causing the effects that time passing would cause. No, instead, what happens is that the body shows the results of the increased weariness, which is to be exactly the same as if the character had aged to the new total age, at the current point in actual time. Basically, it looks more like the character had been born earlier than they actually age any more. Basically the body is just a bit more run down that it was previously.

To me, I'd not do the hair and fingernails, because those would indicate that the character had, at some point, not cut their hair or fingernails, etc, which is contrary to fact. These would be part of everyday life, and not the wearying of the spirit.

Does this make any more sense from the metaphysical POV?

Mike

[kenjib]

Hi,

I think of it more like a transmutation than high-speed aging.  You don't experience the years, but rather magically transform to the state you would be in at the new age.

How do you justify the hair/fingernail growth within your own campaign, given it is a transmutation?

Cheers,

I see two options:

1.  Drop it as inconsistent with how it works otherwise ala Mike Holmes' great explanation.
2.  Keep it in because you like the effect and just handwave it away as "magic" in a world that does not always obey the laws of rationality.  It could be interesting to leave such a visible effect in if magic is taboo and wizards risk severe retribution if they are discovered.

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

To me, I'd not do the hair and fingernails, because those would indicate that the character had, at some point, not cut their hair or fingernails, etc, which is contrary to fact. These would be part of everyday life, and not the wearying of the spirit.

This is really the crux of the matter. I think that what you are proposing is a replacement for the current mechanic rather than an interpretation of it. It makes sense and is internally consistent -- but it feels like a free lunch for the mage to me.

If a mage ages a month in a moment there won't be any external sign that this is the case. It's not like you'd see wrinkles develop in a month or whatever. The hair and fingernail growth adds drama to the scene -- everyone knows what the mage has sacrificed to cast the spell under the circumstances as the signs are visible. It is a dramatic device, and a quite clever one I think.

If there is no or little outward sign, on the other hand, then at what point does the mage die when casting a spell due to the effect of cumulative spiritual aging? If the mage has syphillis that will kill them by the age of 42, does cumulative spiritual aging past 42 kill them through the ravages of the disease? If not, then the mage is getting a free lunch. If so, then the spiritual aging is quite physical and the lack of hair/fingernail growth starts to feel like the anomaly.

I think your suggestion is fine -- internally consistent and workable. A neat solution to a mild quandary. Personally, I'll keep the aging to the physical and ignore the whys for the moment.

Cheers,