Carrying and drawing long swords

[chade0]

How were long swords (long sword, great sword, bastard sword, doppelhander) carried? Were they in your back? If yes, how could they be drawn (since they're so long)? And was it much more difficult to draw a weapon from your back?

How much CP should you use to draw weapon from your back?

Just curious.

[ZazielsRephaim]

Some longswords and bastard swords would be carried on the hip, but in the case of a greatsword or the former swords mentioned being carried on the back, often you would see a type of baldric that you would shrug off your body as you drew the sword.  You would just basically take it off, then retrieve it once you were done with battle.  There are also other types where the scabbard only covers the tip and third of the blade, and the hilt rests in hooks.  There you only have to unhook the hilt, and pull the sword a third of the way to draw it free.  They have a picture of that one in the Museum Replicas catalogue.  Check out www.museumreplicas.com

And ymmv.  As for making it take longer to draw from your back.. in my honest opinion you might make it matter in situations where a split second can make a difference.  Otherwise, I dont see too much of a point to worry about it.

-Luke

[Brian Leybourne]

How were long swords (long sword, great sword, bastard sword, doppelhander) carried? Were they in your back?

In your back? Jeez, you have to be a hard bastard to carry your weapon that way... :-)

Brian.

[ZazielsRephaim]

I keep a knife or two in my enemy's back... just for simple storage.

[Anthony I]

Chade,

Swords like true two-handers (great swords, dopplerhanders, etc) were used primarily as war swords or for formalized duels.  In both cases you would most likely know you were going to be involved in battle and would have the sword drawn.  For around town wear, you carried a more manageable weapon- and arming sword or rapier for example.

[Salamander]

How were long swords (long sword, great sword, bastard sword, doppelhander) carried? Were they in your back? If yes, how could they be drawn (since they're so long)? And was it much more difficult to draw a weapon from your back?

How much CP should you use to draw weapon from your back?

Just curious.

There was a wide variety of ways for people to carry a longsword. It all depended upon culture, weapon, weather and purpose.

I for one tend to carry my longsword in its scabbard in my left hand when I carry it to and from places such as practice and so on. It seems that some Venetians did the same thing if certain paintings are to be believed.

Some would wear thier weapon on a belt with a suspender to keep it readily accessible, but they would always be mindful of where the scabbard went, or else they would end up using the sword.

In times of war the majority of troops using great swords, flammards & doppelhanders would either rest them upon their shoulder unscabbarded or rarely in a back sling which would be discarded, as mentioned above to be retrieved later.

Those who could afford harness would often use a belt with a pair of rings much like a frog to hold the sword. That way if their primary weapon was lost and they had to draw their longsword as a secondary weapon, they would not have a scabbard to get in the way as they fought.

Drawing a sword from a scabbard is relatively simple, as long as you can get the blade to clear the scabbard in a reltively rapid fashion. Back hangars were never used for the quickdraw, only for moving the weapon from point A to point B. I have tried to draw a longsword off my back and had no luck getting it out.

I believe that drawing a weapon can be considered as part of entering the stance and is well covered by the suprise and preparation rules.

[ZazielsRephaim]

here is the picture of the baldric I was talking about which you can actually draw from.  

http://66.0.193.113/isroot/www11650/ProductImages/mrl9562.jpg

I am not sure how historically accurate it is, but it makes sense.

[Ingenious]

As for Zaziel's post, and the other post having to do with surprise and preparations etc... I beleive in my mind, that should someone have one of these baldrics, and is a reasonably intelligent character... that the could draw a sword out of one of these baldrics and not have anyone take notice(depending on size of character and sword). Or if they had a back baldric/sheath like Blade does, but is more along the lines of what Zaz posted about.

*shrug*

-Ingenious
'Continuing the time-honored tradition of not knowing what the hell I'm talking about'

[Mike Holmes]

It seems to me that the real question is, what happens if you're carrying a sword for travel, like the aforementioned back method, and you get ambushed or something. How much wrangling will it take to unlimber that Greatsword?

Yes, nobody looks for a fight this way, but sometimes the fight comes looking for you.

Mike

[Ingenious]

Well since sword drawing timing was mentioned, Zaziel might have the best answer for that, as I'm sure he'd be quite able to time himself drawing from his baldric. Regardless of which sword he uses, the method of which drawing from a back mounted scabbard of the full-size type will take the same amount no matter what size sword be used. Step one, sling baldric off of shoulder; step two, draw.

Oh, and to put that into perspective, or more-over to skew it with an off-topic subject.... quick-draws of gunslingers were in the MILLISECONDS.

-Ingenious
::edited to note that I forgot about my two handed scimitar on the wall.
Draw-time for that thing is estimated at around 3-4 seconds. Though practice might shave that down a few seconds... as I'm sure masters of sword types could draw their swords faster.

[Richard_Strey]

I've practiced longsword fencing for about 3 years now, with a bit of dagger, pole arm, "hard" aikido and combat wrestling thrown in. So I feel educated enough to make the guess that if you're ambushed and your foe suddenly rushes at you from anything less than 30 feet away, there's one thing you'll do:

Draw your dagger -if you are fast enough to do even that- and dispatch the first guy. Then you *might* find enough time to draw a sword.

Remember that there are a few factors to keep in mind here.
1. The enemy will be on the move at about top speed or right upon you by the time you notice.
2. You *will* need time to make a first tactical observation. Where are they coming from, how many, what kind of armament, what kind of armor, are they a real threat or only trying to draw attention, where are your allies, what is the terrain like... Good fighters can do this *while* reacting or even constantly observe these points before they are attacked.
3. Your sword is of little use right after it is drawn. You need time to at least get the point on line with your enemy, let alone prepare for a decent cut. If the attacker has a short weapon and even mediocre armor, he can easily overrun you without fearing a cut and stab you in the process.

So, what you want to do in such a situation is:
Check where *all* the enemies are. Leap away from them, while drawing a weapon and *keep looking*. Then try to survive.
When coping with such situations during sparring, I find that few kills are actually made with the classic cut or stab. Mostly it's just bind, move in and throw, then kill. There is no time for trading blows. Time is on their side.

[Salamander]

Richard has got it pretty much on the money in regards to dealing with ambushes.

Also, if you are in a close space such as a room with a low ceiling or a hallway (even a hallway as wide as 3m/10') the dagger is the best first option when there are no missile weapons handy. But of course, should you have a spear handy as you walk down said hall and you have a few seconds notice, the other guy is an idiot, but it doesn't matter 'cause he'll probably be dead soon.

One thing I have been taught by my teacher is, if you can, draw and use an Ochs guard to menace the badguy a bit quicker.

[Lance D. Allen]

[quote+"Salamander"]One thing I have been taught by my teacher is, if you can, draw and use an Ochs guard to menace the badguy a bit quicker.[/quote]

English friend.. Better yet, explain what an Ochs guard is, 'cause even if it translates, it probably means nothing to those of us who are not serious WMAs. If we can understand what an Ochs guard is, perhaps we can actually find a way to make it apply in our own games, if/when an ambush occurs.

[Anthony I]

Lance,

The picture of the girl on pg 74 of the TROS book is a good enough rendition of ochs (ox).