Greetings and Campaign Notes....

[Mike Holmes]

However, overall the game was a success in that the players enjoyed themselves. However I am not sure how much I was able to succeed in constructing a "Narrativist" experience.

Here's me frowning. The important thing is having fun. Narrativism is simply one way to accomplish that. There is no imperative beyond having fun. Rather, if you're having fun, you're doing it right. There's no special magical outcome of Narrativism other than players having fun making up stories about their characters.

Basically I got together with the three players and took turns discussing with them what exactly they wanted out of the game.  It turns out one of the players (the DHPN) is pretty much a gamist. I pointed out he probably wouldn't have very much enjoyment from the game as I was running it but he insisted he continue trying it out anyway. ::shrugs::

Interesting. Does that player seem to be having a good time? When you say that the player is a Gamist, I assume that you mean that he indicated that he liked accumulation of power, or addressing challenges, or somesuch? Just because a player likes these things doesn't mean that they can't like other modes as well. That is, are you sure that you've determined a preference, and not just what the player is used to? Did they specifically say that they didn't like creating themes or something? Because if they say they want to continue, and they seem to be doing OK, then that's probably more telling than any statement about what they like.

The EFS couldn't really give me much beyond that she was amoral and she wanted revenge on the High Queen. ::sighs:: I am really not sure what to do about her. She has expressed a bit of interest in investigation, combat, and using her feminine wiles to her advantage but none of it seems really bang-worthy.

Furled brow again. All seems "bang-worthy" to me. What you can't ask players for is what should happen way far out. Because they shouldn't have any idea either. They should only know the stuff that this player is giving you.

To be clear, when I say that the GM doesn't predetermine the plot in this mode of play, that doesn't mean that the players do instead. Nobody does. Nobody at all should have a precise view of where things are going. All decisions in this mode can be decided on the spot. That doesn't mean that players can't plan and such...just that play is a combination of your input and theirs. No single participant should have total control over what's going on. So it seems to me that what she's given you is the perfect information.

1. Revenge - have some point at which she gets the opportunity to avenge herself, but at some potential cost. This is a classic Bang style, and maybe the easiest. Find two things that the character wants a lot, and make them decide between the two. Doesn't have to be fateful (they don't have to lose either thing permenantly), but the choice should make a statement about what the character is about. Further, if the queen dies or is damaged politically or something by the PC, so much the better. No plot immunity for NPCs. They only exist to make the PCs more interesting.
2. Investigation - give opportunities to chase multiple forms of information. The choice of which to follow says things about the character's priorities.
3. Combat - amongst the most powerful of Bang potential. A fight breaks out amongst multiple potential allies. Who to side with? Or, a brawl breaks out in which an enemy is present. Does the character escalate to lethal violence? With what repercussions? Says tons about the character's priorities.
4. Feminine Wiles - Uh, not to be too crass, but to what lengths is the character willing to go to get what she wants? Next to the immediate life and death of combat, this is probably the most powerful moment to make statements about a character's values. Ever see the movie Notorious (I almost used that for part of the Relationship Map)? An example of how you can address these issues without alienating anyone by getting into uncomfortable details. If the player thinks, "Heck, it's a game, I'll just have my character do anything in bed to get what she wants," then the first time she has unprotected sex, she gets pregnant. No way to avoid value statments at that point. :-)

The ES said he wanted his character to explore the limits of his timidness and eventually come to terms with whether or not he wanted to be a hero or let his timidness overwhelm him. He also wanted to explore the idea of magic related to shaping and tapping into his own personal myths. Considering he has yet to even use the myth powers he has (no combats involving him yet), I am not sure how fast that is going to work.

You don't have to rush, if you don't want, but, OTOH, bring things to a head with an appropriate Bang whenever you like. Give him moments where he has the choice to play it safe, or to go for the gusto. Have his Myth powers activate themselves. They're written as a follower, right? Makes it fully within your mandate as GM to play the mythic character. Have it show up the first time he chickens out as a sort of slap in the face. Use the one issue to heighten the other.


Anyhow, for the most part your Bang planning seems fine. Let's talk about what happened in play.

I started off with the Unsur situation. The DHPN basically denied him and told him he was a disgrace and deserved any punishment he recieved and torture on top of it. He seemed vaguely interested in acquiring any help that Unsur could give him but did not find any of Unsur's offers to be worthwhile.

If Unsur's friendship isn't enough to make it a real choice, then spike the situation by giving Unsur another bargaining chip. Something that the character would like to have and could get if Unsur is released.

You can't just smack into the same dichotomies again and again, however. If the player has already said that Unsur isn't worthy, then you have to make Unsur more worthy in another way before presenting him again as someone who needs help. But in this case, it sounds like the statement has already been made.

However, in the name of mixing things up more, have NPCs like Unsur appeal to PCs that they haven't before, instead - they don't belong to the first PC they interact with in any way. In fact, if you really want interaction, have Unsur have something that PC B wants, and will give if PC B convinces PC A to help. The neat thing about this is that the real point of decision will occur sometime during the negotiation between the players as PC A gives PC B his price. For maximal effect, make sure that PC A has something to offer that impacts PC B's issues. That way you get a couple of thematic statments simultaneously.

Afterwards I had the ES meet up with Ahaelik and had interaction go back and forth between the two of them. The player of the ES did a pretty job of playing his character in the face of Ahaelik's bravado and combination of encouragement for adventure combined with a request for information.

Hmmm. To be a Bang it should be something more like Ahaelik offers some opportunity to explore that he has to take or pass. Again, just suggestions from other characters that can be ignored aren't Bangs. It should be a "you have to go now or miss out on it," sort of event. OTOH, you should really make it so that there's an equal likelihood that he'll stay home. Play on family obligations or whatever it is that makes him timid in the first place. Such that whatever decision he does make, it reveals something about how the character feels about things through that decision.

"I'll think about it," just delays the real choice until the moment of departure.

All that said, not every scene has to be climactic. If this seems like a good scene building up the issue of ES's hestancy, then it's all good. Which it sounds like as a lead in to the next Bang. So, though it might not have been a Bang, precisely, it may well have been an effective scene.

Just to clarify something terminological. That whole thing about "get to the Bangs" was a little off. I should have said "get to the conflict". Bangs are ideas that you throw in to spice things up when they slow down. But not ever scene needs to be a Bang per se. They should, however, either have some conflict that pertains to the character's issues, or they should highlight those issues somehow.

So not every scene has to be uberdramatic. As long as you're trying to make them about the issues at hand, you're probably headed in the right direction. And not every scene set up will "work", in any case. That is, sometimes the player doesn't see the conflict inherent in the situation that you're setting up. In which case, just move on with a lesson learned about what the player isn't interested in.

At the same time I had the EFS meet with Neara and eventually find her way to the library where the ES was meeting with Ahaelik. (I did a simple contest to determine how long it took). The end result was Ahealik and the EFS meeting up in the office of the ES. The ES vacated the premisis when things started to get ugly and ran to get help with a marginal defeat. So the librarian-priestess (I just used the one I wrote up above) and the guards did not show up until after Ahaelik was defeated. I did use that as a means to ensure that the victory was only marginal. They had him where he couldn't escape but the arrival of the guards changed the situation.

Hmmm. I just want to be clear here. Did you roll for the Ahaelik vs. priestess/guards? I won't say it's a bad thing to do if you did, but, again, the rules say that the resolution system is for "heroes" meaning the PCs. That is, you never have to roll to see what happens to anyone else - just make up what happens. Again, that's in the rules.

That said, I roll for NPCs all the time. But never as more than a simple contest, and just as a sort of randomizer when I'm not sure what would be most interesting to happen. If I can see that one result or another brings up a PC's issues more directly or effectively, I just narrate that particular result. So I'm just wondering if you rolled here or not, and why you chose to do what you did.

After some negotiation eventually the EFS agreed to take any conflict outside and left. Ahaelik thanked the ES, answered a few of his questions and asked for him for help in escaping. This resulted in a contest between the ES's ability to find a way out and the EFS's ability to watch the building. Once again a marginal victory for the ES, and it allow Ahaelik a head start in fleeing. the EFS rolled well in the subsequent contests and was able to capture him.

That sounds pretty good. Each character got to say something about their allegiances and values.

Note how sometimes the contest isn't really the interesting part of what happens. Many times it's the choice to get into a contest on one side or another that's important. The contest itself, again, only randomizes where things go from there. Hence why failure isn't really a problem. So they guy got caught, so what? We still know how ES and EFS feel about things.

When she was returning she had a brief encounter with the DHPN before handing Ahaelik off to Neara.

I sense a rescue operation! can't have rescues unless somebody gets caught in the first place. :-)

I definitely see some of the PCs being approached to get Ahaelik out. Loads of things that people could offer to get characters to go for it.

Oh, and at this point, I sense that you were off of the prepared Bang material and winging it? I certainly hope so. Again, at some point, things in play should just start taking on a life of their own and Bangs can just be held in reserve for moments when players aren't driving their characters toward some goal (or to complicate those drives).

The DHPN was asked to participate in the ritual and after some brief hesitation he agreed.

I loved this bang. The player was male, right? Great call in general. OTOH, you have to balance things out to make this a good Bang, and you had a good opportunity to do so. If he seems too eager to do it, then you could reveal more and more humiliating elements as the ritual approaches. Until you can really see the player thinking about it. That said, you have to be careful here not to be seen as manipulating. So your version was probably just great. Did they smile while hesitating?

Also, consider that in this sort of situation, the Kobiyashi Maru solution might occur. That is, occasionally the player will figure out a way to have their cake and eat it too. If they do figure out some good way to get through the ritual without being humiliated, then more power to the player. In that case, the theme created is "I don't accept losing propositions." Which is always cool.

The overall point, however, is that, though many of these Bangs seem to suggest only two outcomes, anyhting is possible, and any response is fine. As long as it's a response that says something about the character (thus avoidng the decision isn't fine - though hiding from it might be).

I also used this as an oppurtunity to explain some of the stuff about the Year King.

Nice. Exposition as a result of play is optimal.

Afterwards he decided he wanted to try to seduce the priestess who was helping to train him for the ritual, and he did reasonably well. I am not sure what the ramifications are going to be for this, but he used a hero point to buy a relationship with her.

Initiative from the player! Awesome. The neat thing is she's already "on the Map" as it were. She's related to Rahal as a priestess involved in her ritual. In fact, if you want to make it even more pointed, then say that she's made some vow of chastity (assuming that makes sense for the cult) that she's forsaken. Not neccessarily for the PC (if she had that vow as an Ability, she probably would have used it against the PC in the contest), but just in general. The point is that someone will discover the indiscretion, and that will result in trouble for the PC or the relationship. Then it's time for the PC to re-examine the relationship.

Be fully prepared if the player decides to stick with the relationship for this to become the center of that character's story. That is, there's nothing more powerful than a love story, and that's what this could become. Be prepared to really more fully investigate this NPC. OTOH, maybe it was just a fling, and he'll drop her like a hot potato. Never can tell. That's what makes it interesting. Make sure something comes up to stress the relationship.

As a note, from one POV, all Bangs associated with a relationship map are should stress relationships somehow.

I fast-forwarded a few days and sent the EFS to get Sabunda at Leera's. The ES was also there (he was supposed to meet Ahealik there) and the EFS came over there and threatened him.

Sounds like some cool framing. :-)

Sounds like some cool fallout from that.

They were able to intercept her but I allowed the DHPN to show up (he has been itching for some combat) and I followed that with an extended contest fight. It went back and forth a few times but ended with the Humakti Warrior being the last man standing and making off with Sabunda. Thats where I ended.

Hmm. I'd think that with a 2W2 that it would be really surprising if anyone else came out on top (the characters are starting characters, no?). There's a small danger here in that you may have had that character usurp a moment where another character could shine as a protagonist. That is why wasn't it, say, the EFS that got to come out on top?

OTOH, perhaps I'm reading in too much. I can certainly see the setup as ripe for action. Another character to rescue, perhaps, in Sabunda now (Gerisa will certainly do what she can to get PCs to get these two out, I'd think). Given the stakes, she'll probably be willing to offer big things, no?

I am thinking next session I am going to up the tension and stakes in the city and that things are going to, thanks to the actions of the PCs, go one step closer to a break down of the Warm Earth - Red Earth collaboration in Rhigos. I may even have it break into open battle and perhaps a coup.

Excellent. Have things come top a peak as normal social conventions drop by the wayside, and characters can go all out to get what they want.

Consider that some of the character's stories may actually be resolved next session. Seems short, but why not? Can mean death, or simply completing the character's goals, anything that finishes up with the character's storylines. If this is a "test" game, it may be very appropriate to see if you can drive for some resolutions in the next session.

My main problem is nothing that happened seemed all that bangy. Am I correct or incorrect in this assumption? I am also not sure what I did differently that changed the level of enjoyment in the session.

Hard to say given what I'm seeing. Did the PCs "reveal" themselves?

Maybe it was the increase in player interaction, even if some of it was adverserial in nature. Two of the players (both of which were present) expressed some annoyance over one of the players who was absent, so that may have increased their enjoyment.  

That seems like a contradictory statement. But, like I said before, less PCs can often mean better play for everyone. In any case, the first point is still the most important. If the players had fun, you're doing things right. Who cares if it fits some precise definition of some mode of play or something. Often instinct is your best guide. The stuff I'm giving here are hints intended to produce more reliable fun, but are only one of many proven methods. So go with what's working.

Also, how often is it appropriate to give out hero points? I ask because I gave out like 4 or 5 (I do not remember exactly) at the start of the session and by the end 2 of the 3 players has used all of them on bumps or  gaining/improving abilities? Should I give out more next session or just wait until I complete a particular "arc?"

Per session, IMO. Keep up the high rate as long as you like what the players are doing, and they're spending them on neat things.

Not how they're spending a lot on relationships and other such stuff that makes sense in terms of the scope of play? Like I said before, players will tend to just use the points well if you give them to them. So I'm all for giving out lots. I can't see the downside.

Mike

[doubtofbuddha]

From the previous post

Cool, but the problem is that these things seem to really only be appealing to the player's experiencing them. That is, if the other players were into the other player's characters and what was happening to them, you'd get less complaints about not enough face time.

Well I am having enough difficulty managing to make the scenes appeal to the players that are involved in them. Making them appeal to everyone is going to be a bit farther down the way. Though making other characters present and involved seems to help. (like I did with tacking the EFS's scene with Ahealik on to the of the ES's scene with him. I actually made the scene that way to specifically heighten character interaction)

Then it's possible you're not putting the extended contests in the right places.

Looking back I think I should have made the attempt to get Unsur a simple contest. I think making the fight against the Humakti and his warriors was the right decision, as they were obviously amping for the fight, and the Humakti's active death and combat magic (he was wise enough to activate it before approaching the PCs) gave him the set of dramatic momentum that almost required that it be an extended contest (Come to think of it I probably should use him again. With more detail)

Alternate Paths?

When I say alternate paths I don't mean pre-designed alternate paths. I mean different choices the player could have made. If the PC had chosen to do something else than everything else (including the choice that was actually made) would be an alternate path. I honestly do not care what choice a player makes (unless it completely violates the standards of character and shared world) and I try to make that very clear to the players themselves. Whatever choice they make can have interesting ramifications.

I also went so far as to ask each of the players individually before the game what sort of scenes they wanted to have for their character in the future and where they wanted their characters to go.

I have no plot in mind. Just a selection of NPCs who are interacting with the PCs and each other.

OK, to be more direct, are you coming this year? So we can do a demo game?

No.  I am graduating in August and won't have the financial ability to attend Gen Con. Unless I miraculously get a job equivlant to one I would get upon graduation before I graduate.

Also, I don't really see very much of a point in me going to cons anymore. Gen Con 2000 was fun, but they don't hold much of an appeal for me anymore. I prefer campaign play to one-shots, and it seems that most of the seminars aren't really anything I am interested in anymore. I get more out of web sites like this one than anything I would get by attending a convention.

Am I glad you didn't do this.

Yeah, after further reading I realized that was a baaaad idea.

Instead, use the "flexibility and mythic adventure" of Glorantha, to make the character's issues more important.

If there is one main failing I can see in my current game is that I haven't played very much on the "fantasy" elements of Glorantha. Considering how much trouble I have had with learning the system and how to handle a new scenario style, I guess that is acceptable though. I can work on that in my next game. ;)

Hmmm. Sillyness? Could you explain what you mean? Is this something about how the system handled it, or how you made up the contest?

It was probably how I made up the conest. Most of the Scholar's half of the contest involved him attempting to decipher the murals and the murals bidding to attempt to confuse him. I think I could have framed the contest better, but I honestly can't think of any way I could have better handled the complex's actions. Oh well.



From the Session response post

Here's me frowning. The important thing is having fun. Narrativism is simply one way to accomplish that. There is no imperative beyond having fun. Rather, if you're having fun, you're doing it right. There's no special magical outcome of Narrativism other than players having fun making up stories about their characters.

Of course. However, I would also like to master Narrativism within the confines of it.

Interesting. Does that player seem to be having a good time? When you say that the player is a Gamist, I assume that you mean that he indicated that he liked accumulation of power, or addressing challenges, or somesuch? Just because a player likes these things doesn't mean that they can't like other modes as well. That is, are you sure that you've determined a preference, and not just what the player is used to? Did they specifically say that they didn't like creating themes or something? Because if they say they want to continue, and they seem to be doing OK, then that's probably more telling than any statement about what they like.

Yes. Exactly. He said he was interested in overcoming the obstalces set up by the GM, killing monsters, and acquiring the loot that comes about from killing said monsters. He also mentioned a level of interest in MUSH's but said that basically he was interested in pursuing the themes commonly supported by the classical D&D mode of gaming. He expressed a disinterest in developing internal conflicts or taking his character very much beyond the superficial level.

To be clear, when I say that the GM doesn't predetermine the plot in this mode of play, that doesn't mean that the players do instead. Nobody does. Nobody at all should have a precise view of where things are going. All decisions in this mode can be decided on the spot. That doesn't mean that players can't plan and such...just that play is a combination of your input and theirs. No single participant should have total control over what's going on. So it seems to me that what she's given you is the perfect information.

I never plan the plot out very far in advance, even when running d20. I may have a vague idea of NPCS goals and plans but I consider plotting as being the equivlant of forcing players in a particular direction, and I prefer a game that is player-driven, because in my perceptions player-driven games tend to be more fun for the players, and thus more fun for me.

Revenge - have some point at which she gets the opportunity to avenge herself, but at some potential cost. This is a classic Bang style, and maybe the easiest. Find two things that the character wants a lot, and make them decide between the two. Doesn't have to be fateful (they don't have to lose either thing permenantly), but the choice should make a statement about what the character is about. Further, if the queen dies or is damaged politically or something by the PC, so much the better. No plot immunity for NPCs. They only exist to make the PCs more interesting.

Of course. I am having difficulty coming up with something else she values though. It seems that she is largely driven by revenge with an occassional desire for physical gratification thrown in.

2. Investigation - give opportunities to chase multiple forms of information. The choice of which to follow says things about the character's priorities.

Thus far mostly it has been Neara sending her to get someone and the ES doing it, with the decision making proccess coming about in how she choose to go about things. She has questioned Neara about how a particular mission will move her towards her goals. I have been considering having Neara do something corrupt and send the ES to do some sort of dirty work, but I am not sure if that is in Neara's character. It would be fun to see if the ES just goes along with it or not though.

If the player thinks, "Heck, it's a game, I'll just have my character do anything in bed to get what she wants," then the first time she has unprotected sex, she gets pregnant. No way to avoid value statments at that point. :-)

Well... see the thing is we have a puma person hunter, who is only fertile one time a year, the vingan who has given her fertility to Vinga while she is a warrior so that sort of thing wouldn't happen, and a former Babeester Gori, who no longer has the ability to do anything like that.  I've done that in the past though, mainly with this one PC. He ended up doing the right thing and marrying her. ;)

You don't have to rush, if you don't want, but, OTOH, bring things to a head with an appropriate Bang whenever you like. Give him moments where he has the choice to play it safe, or to go for the gusto. Have his Myth powers activate themselves. They're written as a follower, right? Makes it fully within your mandate as GM to play the mythic character. Have it show up the first time he chickens out as a sort of slap in the face. Use the one issue to heighten the other.

Good point. Especially since he specicially mentioned that he currently doesn't have much control over said myth powers.

However, in the name of mixing things up more, have NPCs like Unsur appeal to PCs that they haven't before, instead - they don't belong to the first PC they interact with in any way. In fact, if you really want interaction, have Unsur have something that PC B wants, and will give if PC B convinces PC A to help. The neat thing about this is that the real point of decision will occur sometime during the negotiation between the players as PC A gives PC B his price. For maximal effect, make sure that PC A has something to offer that impacts PC B's issues. That way you get a couple of thematic statments simultaneously.

Actually, while reading this post it occured to me that what I could do is have it so that Unsur has information on the PPH's father. He isn't willing to give it up unless she can get him out of prison. He will mention that the DHPN has the ability to help him and she (who has a relationship with him thanks to sexxors in previous sessions) can decide what she wants to do. Does she lead a jail break? Does she try to have the DHPN help? Something else?

All that said, not every scene has to be climactic. If this seems like a good scene building up the issue of ES's hestancy, then it's all good. Which it sounds like as a lead in to the next Bang. So, though it might not have been a Bang, precisely, it may well have been an effective scene.

Indeed.  I also noted that the player's actions in support of the Warm Earth faction lead nicely to him being offered a position by Rahal.

Hmmm. I just want to be clear here. Did you roll for the Ahaelik vs. priestess/guards? I won't say it's a bad thing to do if you did, but, again, the rules say that the resolution system is for "heroes" meaning the PCs. That is, you never have to roll to see what happens to anyone else - just make up what happens. Again, that's in the rules.

I am not sure what, specifically you are refering to here.
That may be because of I was kind of unclear in my statement.
Basically there were a number of contests here.
The first was the EFS trying to convince Ahaelik to go with her. Ahaelik won that one and refused.
Next the EFS and her sidekick try to capture Ahaelik. They succeed but only marginally. Driving him back and hurting him, but blocking his escape.
At the same time the ES trying to get the priestesses in time.  Marginal Failure resulting in her not showing up until after the contest is over.
The next contest is between the EFS and the priestess, with the priestess trying to convince the EFS to leave and the EFS trying to convince her to let her take Ahealik.  She fails and leaves.

Does that answer your question?
None of the conflicts were entirely between NPCs vs. NPCs. In fact the only NPC vs. NPC conflicts I had was when I was trying to determine if Queen Rahal sent any warriors to aid Sabunda. (At that point I used a contested Member of Warm Earth faction vs. Neara's Influential in Rhigos and that was a simple contest) I did that because "I" didn't know what was going to happen and I figured that using the system was as good of a way as any to figure it out.

I sense a rescue operation! can't have rescues unless somebody gets caught in the first place. :-)

Indeed! Especially since Sabunda now knows what is going on and is free.
I am thinking that she is going to go back to her old bodyguard and beg forgiveness and help to rescure her husband. I think it will be a pretty interesting conflict. Does she hold onto her feelings of vengeance or does she reach out to her own humanity?
I could also see the scholar being approached, but I can't really see why they would. The EFS and DHPN are definitely out. THe PPH? Dunno.

Oh, and at this point, I sense that you were off of the prepared Bang material and winging it? I certainly hope so. Again, at some point, things in play should just start taking on a life of their own and Bangs can just be held in reserve for moments when players aren't driving their characters toward some goal (or to complicate those drives).

You bet. I think that getting away from the designed bangs was a major stumbling block for me before. I mean I am used to winging it when I run d20 (I usually just create certain sorts of scenes or events that I want to present the playes with, stat out some NPCs and just run with it.) Its just when faced with this new, unfamiliar scenario design system I immediately moved more towards its constraints rather than the flexibility. I am just now reaching the point where I am able to move past the constraints

I loved this bang. The player was male, right? Great call in general. OTOH, you have to balance things out to make this a good Bang, and you had a good opportunity to do so. If he seems too eager to do it, then you could reveal more and more humiliating elements as the ritual approaches. Until you can really see the player thinking about it. That said, you have to be careful here not to be seen as manipulating. So your version was probably just great. Did they smile while hesitating?

Haha, no he wasn't eager, really. He kept on asking questions to his sidekick (Who he wisely gave 2w in Esrolian Customs) about the ritual as he was kind of worried Neara was making this up. He still is kind of leery over the whole symbolic sacrifice thing and is kind of worried that they might have an "accident" to get rid of him.

Initiative from the player! Awesome. The neat thing is she's already "on the Map" as it were. She's related to Rahal as a priestess involved in her ritual. In fact, if you want to make it even more pointed, then say that she's made some vow of chastity (assuming that makes sense for the cult) that she's forsaken. Not neccessarily for the PC (if she had that vow as an Ability, she probably would have used it against the PC in the contest), but just in general. The point is that someone will discover the indiscretion, and that will result in trouble for the PC or the relationship. Then it's time for the PC to re-examine the relationship.

Quick note, the priestess serves Priestess Neara, not the Queen. The DHPN rebuffed the Queen's offer but chose not to tell Neara about it. Oh and yes, she is chaste (she isn't married) and I had her make her roll her chaste trait as an opposition against his attempts to seduce her. He got a minor victory so I decided that was equivlant of "second base."  I don't really see him getting involved in her as a love affair as its abit out of character. Though it would be entertaining to see her fall in love with him and see how he handles it. Hmm... Probably should detail her about before the next session.

Sounds like some cool framing. :-)

Sounds like some cool fallout from that.  

Oh that scene was alot of fun. :) The player of the ES was thinking of taking Afraid of Lisith (the EFS) as a personality trait and its obvious they are starting to actively not get along IC.

Hmm. I'd think that with a 2W2 that it would be really surprising if anyone else came out on top (the characters are starting characters, no?). There's a small danger here in that you may have had that character usurp a moment where another character could shine as a protagonist. That is why wasn't it, say, the EFS that got to come out on top?

I made a mistake. He had a 2w in his combat skill.
After modifications and augments she had the highest combat skill with 13w and the Humkati had 12w.
It was a reeeeally close battle, but I had wanted one after the previous relatively easy wins on the part of the ES.
I wanted this encounter to be a challenge.

OTOH, perhaps I'm reading in too much. I can certainly see the setup as ripe for action. Another character to rescue, perhaps, in Sabunda

Hmmm...
Sabunda doesn't need rescusing. She was rescued from the PCs. However, I can see Sabunda wanting to rescuse her husband.

Consider that some of the character's stories may actually be resolved next session. Seems short, but why not? Can mean death, or simply completing the character's goals, anything that finishes up with the character's storylines. If this is a "test" game, it may be very appropriate to see if you can drive for some resolutions in the next session.

This was originally seen as a test game, yes, though I have made some noises (that I no regret) about having it continue. I am regreatting that now. But we will see what happens. The only story I can easily see ending next session is the PPH, as she finds her father. However, I could easily extend that by having complications arise as she finds him. (Mental note, make father character)

That seems like a contradictory statement. But, like I said before, less PCs can often mean better play for everyone. In any case, the first point is still the most important. If the players had fun, you're doing things right. Who cares if it fits some precise definition of some mode of play or something. Often instinct is your best guide. The stuff I'm giving here are hints intended to produce more reliable fun, but are only one of many proven methods. So go with what's working.

Sorry if that was confusing. What I meant is that it seemed odd that people had more fun because I really didn't see myself as doing things all that differently this session. On further talking to the players it seems that the smaller group of players added to the overall fun though, as both players mentioned that as part of their increased fun.  

ME: Why was last night's fun as compared to the other nights? (in your view)
ES player:: yeah actually i loved it
ES player:: it was a lot more fun
ES player: a WHOLE lot more
Me: I know. I am just curious as to why. It didn't seem that different to me.
Me: I mean
Me: I didn't see myself doing that much stuff that was different.
ES player: because we all got to do stuff, it was quicker to switch turns and we were all actively included in eachothers activtiies.. which made everyone care more i think

I had previously thought that the absence of one of the players might have caused the increase in fun but I am not so certain of that anymore.

However, I think that you were correct in saying that a smaller group is better in this style. I think it will be good to have my new HQ game after I wrap up my d20 game to keep the group maxed out at 4.

Also I have some questions about the relationship map?
When is it a good time to expand on the relationship map?
You warned against that in a previous post, but I don't see how you can avoid that if you are running a continuing campaign. (Which all of my players have expressed a desire to do. They want to be involved in long-term stories with their characters)

What happens when the people in the current relationship map have exhausted their usage (either through death or otherwise. I think Unsur might be leaving soon). Plus some members of the relationship map haven't really been involved at all (Leera, the ship captain, etc.)

[Scripty]

I think you both misunderstood me. I was asking that question not because I wanted to veer off from using the system (I REEEEAALLY like the HeroQuest system), but because I thought that what Mike was suggesting was that I ignore the system.

I'm sorry. I think it's more a matter of me sending you the wrong impression. I wasn't ganging up on you (or anyone) in particular. I just wanted to emphasize a point that Mike made for the benefit of anyone following this particular thread by giving examples of what a trainwreck ignoring the rules can be (especially if the rules make up a part of the "Social Contract", which they should, IMO).

I did not mean to imply that you were ignoring the rules or come down on high with judgment on anyone's style of play. My only intent was to put up a big yellow road sign that said "Danger! Look out for falling rocks!" along a particular path that had been discussed.

From what I'm reading, it seems like you've "got it" as far as running these games goes. Heck, I'd play in your game in a heartbeat.

So, relax into it. I don't see you as having all that much to worry about.  You're not doing anything "wrong" as far as I can tell. From my experience with it, HeroQuest does have some "fish out of water" feelings associated with learning (and running) it. It's a great system, but it does implore you to approach things a little differently. Creating conflicts instead of tasks, accepting that nearly all contests will neither completely succeed or completely fail, etc.

As an experiment, run your HeroQuest campaign for a month or so and then do a quick 2nd edition D&D adventure or some other old school game. I think you'll see just how much you've shifted in how you plan, run and play through the comparison. Your players will too. For the money, some of the members of my group groan at mass combat in any system besides HQ. I know I do. I also find myself thinking of games in HeroQuest terms. Right now, I'm planning out a Wierd War II game. I was planning on running it in Call of Cthulhu d20, as a gamist treat (we've been running lots of Nar and Sim leaning stuff). I thought the horror elements mixed with battlefield/Squad Leader strategy would be perfect. But, when I'm brainstorming, I find myself going over a list of Bangs and ideas, but I'm constantly looking at them and going "skills don't work like that in d20... I'm grokking an Extended Contest from HQ." IA!

Ah, if I could only use ExCons in d20... It may have to be a HeroQuest game after all.

[Scripty]

Also I have some questions about the relationship map?
When is it a good time to expand on the relationship map?
You warned against that in a previous post, but I don't see how you can avoid that if you are running a continuing campaign. (Which all of my players have expressed a desire to do. They want to be involved in long-term stories with their characters)

What happens when the people in the current relationship map have exhausted their usage (either through death or otherwise. I think Unsur might be leaving soon). Plus some members of the relationship map haven't really been involved at all (Leera, the ship captain, etc.)

I'm not an authority, but my relationship maps rarely make it through 3 sessions without some serious mojo going down on them. For instance, in my last CthulhuPunk mini-campaign, I had a relationship map. One player completely ignored any involvement whatsoever. Come to think of it, he avoided *everyone* in the setting, even the other players. The other player found a happy niche and just sort of nested there. The third player bounced a bit but stayed localized in one region of it.

The nutsy thing is that the actions of the loner player set in motion things that resulted in pretty much the obsolesence of the map as a whole. He pretty much pushed the whole thing to a new level. 3 games in, I need a new map. I mapped as many of the old NPCs to it as I could but, for the most part, the old conflict (a MacGuffin) between the groups was resolved (a PC had it) and/or the old groups were either destroyed or no longer viable (in their old status) in play.

Fully 70% of the relationship map was never used. I think it's hard not to run a game and trample all over the relationship map. Some NPCs get X'd out. Some NPCs never get met. Others have their motivations change (or even their concepts). I don't see how you couldn't have this happen in a game. I generally start out with a well-defined relationship map and then watch it get wrecked.

[doubtofbuddha]

Hey Scripty, thanks for the clarification.

Also I want to apologize for not getting back to you about Midnight d20 yet. :)

Its good stuff and it will be useful if I ever get around to converting the Diamond Throne/Arcana Unearthed over to HQ. (Though I have found myself to be very, very happy with HeroQuest. Especially the Lunar Empire material. yummmm)

As a further question about relationship maps, how do you integrate more fantastic events and creatures into the map and bangs? It seems almost like they don't really have a place in the human personality-drive scenario design techniques of a narrative game.

Oh, and you are right about it changing your gaming style. I am starting up my Arcana Unearthed game again and am already thinking in terms of bangs and how I can translate my existing cache of NPCs over to a relationship map. Actually, now that I think about it, doing that would probably aid in my being able to bring the campaign to a close. Hmmm....

Jesse Dean

[Scripty]

As a further question about relationship maps, how do you integrate more fantastic events and creatures into the map and bangs? It seems almost like they don't really have a place in the human personality-drive scenario design techniques of a narrative game.

Jesse Dean

I'm not really sure I understand the question. I think fantastic events/creatures "do" have a place in relationship maps. I've always treated them as any other entity. For instance, in the Cthulhupunk game, we had a Satanic Cult running a megacorp, a group of hackers who felt like they were on to something big, a gang of street thugs who were really into body enhancements, implants and transplants, the Cabal (yes, from GURPS Cabal), a group of Gnostic Techno-Pirates (a player's conception) and the Umbrella Corp (Yes, from Resident Evil. One of the players wanted the Umbrella Corp to be a part of his character background. Therefore, they became a part of the relationship map and setting.)

They were all after a "chip" with some strange advance into AI technology. Now all these groups were inter-related. The leader of the street thugs was sleeping with the head of the Satanic Corp. The chief contact for one of the players was an executive for the Satanic Corp who was secretly working for Umbrella, etc. etc. The lines were all established by either blood, sex, or money (or obligation, we had several demons that were obligated to the cult).

Among these groups we had various kinds of demons, whackos and beasties. We had run-ins with Madame LaVeau, the Cabal, Deep Ones and, finally, a Shoggoth.

But they were all related to the relationship map. I treated them as any other entity on the map. Sometimes this is hard, but it's not impossible to bring lines between a Serpent Woman and a Satanic Corporate Exec. Either the Exec owes her for a service rendered, he's sleeping with her, or (eww) he's a blood relation. Fantastic creatures just make the relationship map MORE interesting, IMO.

So I guess the short answer is to treat them like anything else on the map.

Does that help?

Scott

[doubtofbuddha]

Does that help?

Sure.

Another question, how big was this particular relationship map? It looks like it would be pretty big.

[Mike Holmes]

Well I am having enough difficulty managing to make the scenes appeal to the players that are involved in them. Making them appeal to everyone is going to be a bit farther down the way. Though making other characters present and involved seems to help.

Again, I'm all for putting PCs together. Where you can do it sensibly, do it.

But that doesn't mean that you won't have moments where PCs are all by themselves in scenes, and I'll bet that everyone in a scene will be rare. So you have to do what you can to make them interesting to the other players. And, again, my best suggestion for doing this is to enlist the other players into creating the scene in some way. Either as NPCs or as part directors of the scene. If two player's characters are meeting, ask a third player who's PC isn't there where they should meet, and what NPCs should be there, and why. They then become unavoidably involved with the scene. They have as much interest as the GM normally does in seeing that it turns out well.

Why hog that all for yourself. Do this a lot and your job becomes easier and easier until you're just the facilitator with final say on arbitration.

I think making the fight against the Humakti and his warriors was the right decision, as they were obviously amping for the fight, and the Humakti's active death and combat magic (he was wise enough to activate it before approaching the PCs) gave him the set of dramatic momentum that almost required that it be an extended contest (Come to think of it I probably should use him again. With more detail)

Hmm. If you're sure everyone liked it then go ahead. You're sure that you're not just injecting your own PC into the game? What I mean is, if at all possible, have the PCs use that character, or defeat him, or somehow leverage his cool capabilities to look interesting themselves. The story is about the PCs, not that NPC.

I also went so far as to ask each of the players individually before the game what sort of scenes they wanted to have for their character in the future and where they wanted their characters to go.

Cool. Remember, ask for scenes, and conflicts, not for results of those conflicts. That is, you don't want to know that their character wants to encounter some badguy and defeat him. You just want to know that they want the encounter to occur, and what the conflict is. You can't garuntee the result in any case, but more importantly, if the player knows what they'll do in that situation, then asking is almost like having played it out. Optimally you want to get to situations where the player doesn't know what they'll do, remember? So it's best to find out types of conflicts instead of specifics.

Asking for scenes in play works a bit better because players will often just answer with what seems to be the coolest conflcit on the horizon, and not consider what they're going to do when they get there. The less the player thinks about their response, the better in most cases.

Also, I don't really see very much of a point in me going to cons anymore. Gen Con 2000 was fun, but they don't hold much of an appeal for me anymore. I prefer campaign play to one-shots, and it seems that most of the seminars aren't really anything I am interested in anymore. I get more out of web sites like this one than anything I would get by attending a convention.

You haven't played one of our demos, then. ;-)
People often say that they really get the idea after playing with some of us. Interestingly that often means that they're surprised by how "normal" it all seems rather than by how different it is. What's also surprising to people is how we can get in an entire story in only 45 minutes of play.

If there is one main failing I can see in my current game is that I haven't played very much on the "fantasy" elements of Glorantha.

I had the same problem, actually in one game I ran. You get so involved with the personal problems of the characters that you start to think of them in terms divorced from the setting.

But you just have to plan to put the setting back in. I should have made a better example in one of the bangs. But here's the easist way to do it, and the best example. Make an NPC out of a "monster". For example, instead of one of the NPCs on the map being a human, make them a demon. Give them a demonic set of motives, including some reason they need one of the PCs, and then given them the power to give the PC something that they want. And you're off to the races. Suddenly "monsters" are no longer just htings to kill, but things that can threaten you in other ways (or have other relationships with).

Consider that some bangs are precipitated by events. Uh, a storm is coming soon, so the ship has to leave now or never. That sort of thing. In order to make it fantasy, make the event magical. Perhaps the queen is summoning the storm by way of ritual. Or somebody uses a magic ability to force something else to happen. Again, look at the PCs magic, and have them use it (that's why they have it). Those uses may just be to do things that they'd otherwise do without magic, but in using the magic you get the fantasy element in.

This is what we call color. Do the exact same things, just color them differently. Have someone have a goal that's to complete a Hero Quest, needing one of the PCs to come along. Have guardians at temples become NPCs. Etc, etc.

It was probably how I made up the conest. Most of the Scholar's half of the contest involved him attempting to decipher the murals and the murals bidding to attempt to confuse him. I think I could have framed the contest better, but I honestly can't think of any way I could have better handled the complex's actions. Oh well.

I know what you're talking about, but I really don't get it. People somehow assume that since the term is "resistance" that they have to describe the contest in terms of the thing actively resisting. Change that term to "difficulty". Now does it become non-silly? Just because you're rolling doesn't mean that the "opposition" is behaving in any different a method than it would in any other case. Player loses AP to the complex after attempting to read a wall mural? Then he goes down the wrong path into a more dangerous section. Just as though it was a simple contest.

I personally don't see why people have a cognative problem with this. But they do, so I guess I should try to be more understanding. The only thing that I can suggest is that, if people want some rationale, then say that it's the spirits of the thing that they're being confronted by. Maybe the ancestral spirits of the tomb are actually making it look like the mural is wrong, and the roll is to get it right. I dunno, do what you have to do. But it shouldn't feel silly at all.

Of course. However, I would also like to master Narrativism within the confines of it.

If they're smiling, you're a master.

He said he was interested in overcoming the obstalces set up by the GM, killing monsters, and acquiring the loot that comes about from killing said monsters. He also mentioned a level of interest in MUSH's but said that basically he was interested in pursuing the themes commonly supported by the classical D&D mode of gaming. He expressed a disinterest in developing internal conflicts or taking his character very much beyond the superficial level.

But they still wanted to play? What would you attribute that to?

IME, it means that either the player is dedicated to playing the game, even to the point that they're having no fun, or they actually like the other mode as well. Despite protestations to the contrary. If they're having no fun, really, then release them from their bondage to you and move on. If they are having fun, then ignore the incorect feedback.

Of course. I am having difficulty coming up with something else she values though. It seems that she is largely driven by revenge with an occassional desire for physical gratification thrown in.

Look at the character sheet. Often you'll find something there that you hadn't seen before. What's the character's highest score? If nothing else, threaten to take that ability away. If it's, say, swordsmanship, then the other thing that they value is their right arm. How can you threaten that? Remember that demon above? Use some magic.

As I said, there's always death. As long as you make it very obvious that it's extremely perilous, not to make the assassination attempt, but to succeed at it, then the player has an interesting choice. Oh, and don't be afraid to maim or kill the character if it's in line with the player's choice. No backing off just because it's a nasty result.

Thus far mostly it has been Neara sending her to get someone and the ES doing it, with the decision making proccess coming about in how she choose to go about things. She has questioned Neara about how a particular mission will move her towards her goals. I have been considering having Neara do something corrupt and send the ES to do some sort of dirty work, but I am not sure if that is in Neara's character. It would be fun to see if the ES just goes along with it or not though.

Sim think. What's in Neara's character is whatever you can plausibly get away with. Nothing is established until the player's see it. So, if it's more interesting for her to do something corrupt, and you haven't established something in-game that makes her unlikely to do it, she does it. If you need motivation, create some. Uh, her lover said do it or he'll leave her. People can change "character" for all sorts of reasons. Just make one up.

Well... see the thing is we have a puma person hunter, who is only fertile one time a year, the vingan who has given her fertility to Vinga while she is a warrior so that sort of thing wouldn't happen, and a former Babeester Gori, who no longer has the ability to do anything like that.

Perfect. Have them get pregnant anyhow. Then work out how it happened. Must be powerful magic, right? Must mean somebody wants this child badly, right? Means it'll be unexpected and really a problem, right? :-)

Especially since he specicially mentioned that he currently doesn't have much control over said myth powers.

The player's practically begging you to create problems for him from what I can tell. Cherish this player, and give him all the trouble he wants. :-)

Actually, while reading this post it occured to me that what I could do is have it so that Unsur has information on the PPH's father. He isn't willing to give it up unless she can get him out of prison. He will mention that the DHPN has the ability to help him and she (who has a relationship with him thanks to sexxors in previous sessions) can decide what she wants to do. Does she lead a jail break? Does she try to have the DHPN help? Something else?

Nice, very nice. Work on the plausibility angle, however. That is, make up some good backstory that explains why Unsur knows this information. If you use the same draw too many times across too many characters without working it out, the player will start to see that you're just moving the motive around. Hmmm. Did Unsur perhaps talk to whasisname about the information at the bar? Why would that have come up?

Indeed.  I also noted that the player's actions in support of the Warm Earth faction lead nicely to him being offered a position by Rahal.

You're reminding me of all the other things that have to be done in scenes. In doing that with Rahal, you reveal her more. Revelation is important, and you've been doing a good job so far from what I can tell. Always be looking for how to give the players information about the map. The more they learn, the better responses they can make.

None of the conflicts were entirely between NPCs vs. NPCs. In fact the only NPC vs. NPC conflicts I had was when I was trying to determine if Queen Rahal sent any warriors to aid Sabunda. (At that point I used a contested Member of Warm Earth faction vs. Neara's Influential in Rhigos and that was a simple contest) I did that because "I" didn't know what was going to happen and I figured that using the system was as good of a way as any to figure it out.

Perfect. Just a misreading on my part. You're really doing a good job, and I should learn to trust that you are. :-)

I am thinking that she is going to go back to her old bodyguard and beg forgiveness and help to rescure her husband. I think it will be a pretty interesting conflict. Does she hold onto her feelings of vengeance or does she reach out to her own humanity?

Nice. Pretty dramatic for the NPC, but really highlights the PCs decision. If the player doesn't really enjoy that scene of her boss crawling back, I don't know what to say. :-)

I could also see the scholar being approached, but I can't really see why they would. The EFS and DHPN are definitely out. THe PPH? Dunno.

Again, create backstory and events behind the scene that involve them. The PPH could be approached because whasisname in the bar sugests her to the revolutionary, not knowing what it's about (which she might not understand). Again, work on the plausibility angle. Make events have happened that make it not a coincidence, but rather a likelihood that they'd end up together in the endeavor (or against it as the case might be). Again, look to how these things might impact the issues in question. Does PPH like anyone? Then maybe they're going for their own reasons. Does she get involved in a political battle that she has no stake in, or leave her friend to the wolves?

You bet. I think that getting away from the designed bangs was a major stumbling block for me before. I mean I am used to winging it when I run d20 (I usually just create certain sorts of scenes or events that I want to present the playes with, stat out some NPCs and just run with it.) Its just when faced with this new, unfamiliar scenario design system I immediately moved more towards its constraints rather than the flexibility. I am just now reaching the point where I am able to move past the constraints.

Those old skills should help you a lot. It's really very similar, except instead of having to come up with difficult external challenges, you're coming up with difficult internal decisions. Not easy, but fun when it works out well.

Haha, no he wasn't eager, really. He kept on asking questions to his sidekick (Who he wisely gave 2w in Esrolian Customs) about the ritual as he was kind of worried Neara was making this up. He still is kind of leery over the whole symbolic sacrifice thing and is kind of worried that they might have an "accident" to get rid of him.

Cool. Hit it again, then with some rumor of it having gone wrong last time. But then up the ante on the other side at the same time. Fun, fun.

Quick note, the priestess serves Priestess Neara, not the Queen.

Oops, sorry, got confused.

The DHPN rebuffed the Queen's offer but chose not to tell Neara about it. Oh and yes, she is chaste (she isn't married) and I had her make her roll her chaste trait as an opposition against his attempts to seduce her. He got a minor victory so I decided that was equivlant of "second base."  I don't really see him getting involved in her as a love affair as its abit out of character. Though it would be entertaining to see her fall in love with him and see how he handles it. Hmm... Probably should detail her about before the next session.

If his issue is that he's a womanizer, then have the girl talk about how fumbling he was (she's compensating for her succumbing evn a little or something). Basically she spreads rumors about him and he has to decide how to react. Even if it's not to react at all. Frame it like:

You're coming around a corner, and you hear two of the female acolytes talking about you and the priestess. Just as you come around the corner the one finishes, "and she said she had to bite her tongue to stop from laughing at how fumbling he was." She looks up to see you there realizing that you must have heard her. She puts a hand up to her face to hide a smirk.

If/when he sees the priestess again, she'll be all apollogetic stating that she's new to this sort of thing, and didn't know how to react with the other priestesses. Or something like that. Anyhow, it's hard to say what'll work, not knowing how you've got the religion set up, but the point is that once you have a potential romantic situation there are a load of ways to make it into interesting conflicts.

Oh that scene was alot of fun. :) The player of the ES was thinking of taking Afraid of Lisith (the EFS) as a personality trait and its obvious they are starting to actively not get along IC.

LOL. I love the afraid thing. That could go all sorts of places. And as it's definitely a Flaw sort of thing, give it to him for free (again per the rules, can't remember the page). Should help him with the decision. This is exactly what that rule is for, IMO. Anything that the GM thinks can be used against the PC a health amount of the time he should feel to give for no cost.

I made a mistake. He had a 2w in his combat skill.
After modifications and augments she had the highest combat skill with 13w and the Humkati had 12w.
It was a reeeeally close battle, but I had wanted one after the previous relatively easy wins on the part of the ES.
I wanted this encounter to be a challenge.

Cool then. Sounds neat.

This was originally seen as a test game, yes, though I have made some noises (that I no regret) about having it continue. I am regreatting that now. But we will see what happens. The only story I can easily see ending next session is the PPH, as she finds her father. However, I could easily extend that by having complications arise as she finds him. (Mental note, make father character)

So you're telling me that the players are putting some pressure on you to continue? Hmm. That should be a good sign, no? As far as finishing the stories, put it in the player's minds that it's a possibility. Most of the time it'll be some player initiative that ends the story. They'll tell you that they'd prefer a death scene in one case, or that their attainment of a certain position is all they're interested in for the player. Whatever, it's usually best to leave it to the player.

In another game, you'd want to talk to the players about brining it all to an end in the same session so that they can aim for that. But in this case I guess you'll have to play it by ear. OTOH, if only some do take the out to end the game for their character, they may be signalling that they want out of the game. OTOOH, if they don't then maybe they're saying to you that they really like the game and want it to continue. In any case, I can't see the downside of giving them the option.

Also I have some questions about the relationship map?
When is it a good time to expand on the relationship map?
You warned against that in a previous post, but I don't see how you can avoid that if you are running a continuing campaign. (Which all of my players have expressed a desire to do. They want to be involved in long-term stories with their characters)

Ah, I see. When you've completed some part of the story for some characters, and you stil want to go on playing, it's time to not expand the map, but to put in whole new relationship maps. Like starting a new adventure.

The challenge here is to make the PCs getting grabbed by the new map plausible. There's nothing less plausible than a second group of people all latching onto a group of strangers at random after a first group had done so - too much coincidence. This can be accomplished in several ways. For one, you can have PCs with some similar interests "refered" to the other map by a single point of contact on the first map. Or you can have the new map be interelated in some ways such that the different contacts on the first pass the PCs off to the second. There are a number of ways to make the backstory fit the transfer.

What happens when the people in the current relationship map have exhausted their usage (either through death or otherwise. I think Unsur might be leaving soon). Plus some members of the relationship map haven't really been involved at all (Leera, the ship captain, etc.)

Then they stop showing up. Again, what you're noting is that the situation revolving around this map is getting resolved. Things are coming to a head. Hence why resolving PC stories should start to be more plausible. But as you move to a new map, don't drop the old characters. Anyone who's still viable may find new life in the context of the new map. IOW, let the other NPCs fade "naturally," or continue to maintain their importance as neccessary. The maps may overlap somewhat, but be careful that this doesn't distract from the new map. That is, if some old characters are on the new map, doing so should have some real potential for allowing that character to be a backdrop for some theme. Obviously running villains and nemises are good options.

Anyhow, you know your players better than I, and have a good grasp of the techniques involved. So what I would enjoy (and I think others, too) would be if you would post your second map to the site as you move to it - assuming that the game continues. What would be really good is if you could follow it with some commentary about why you made the decisions that you did. That would make this thread really educational.

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

But they were all related to the relationship map. I treated them as any other entity on the map. Sometimes this is hard, but it's not impossible to bring lines between a Serpent Woman and a Satanic Corporate Exec. Either the Exec owes her for a service rendered, he's sleeping with her, or (eww) he's a blood relation. Fantastic creatures just make the relationship map MORE interesting, IMO.

Hmm. Guess I was just copying Scripty above.

One thing that I should mention is that, according to Ron's original ideas about Relationship Maps, the only thing that counts as a relationship are those of sex and blood. That is, if the character isn't related closely to another, or sleeping with them, the tie between the characters isn't properly a "relationship" for purposes of this technique.

The idea behind this is that only these sorts of relationships are universal to all people, and as such garunteed to be seen for the potentials for conflict that they are. Now, that doesn't mean that you can't have other NPCs involved - they can be in several ways. What it does mean, and the part that I'd agree with, is that it's easiest to mess with these sorts of relationships effectively.

So, when putting maps together, look for as many opportunities to link the characters this way. I didn't do a very good job of that in my original layout. Basically, if there's no reason why one character isn't another's progeny, for example, then make them progeny. If two people could be having an affair, then do it. Don't overdo this - keep plausibility in mind. But where it's plausible, try to make it the case.

For example (and there's still time to make this happen in your game) have the revolutionary turn out to be Sabunda's daughter. Explains her devotion, then, doesn't it?

Mike

[Scripty]

Another question, how big was this particular relationship map? It looks like it would be pretty big.

It was TOO big. I'm still working out my skillz on relationship maps. Just like Ron mentions I use a fictional source as a basis. I can't remember what I used for CthulhuPunk off hand, but I generally pull from something I'm familiar with. I know I've used "Death to Smoochy" as a relationship map more than once. But even that was HURGE after a few sessions.

My biggest dilemma is how to deal with elements that the players bring in. For instance, the CthulhuPunk map had a fairly coherent set of relationships between corporate execs, the underworld, supernatural entities, etc. But once the players came to the table, I had a gnostic techno-pirate group and the Umbrella Corp to squeeze in somewhere. The result was a relationship map explosion. The relationship map was "too" big for the game. I think in the future I'll leave a few blank spots on purpose just to deal with these situations. I'd say, just off the top of my head, that three competing factions is about the limit in terms of planning. My Cthulhupunk game started out in the 4-5 faction range, but quickly exploded into the 8-9 factions. Unless you're playing the "Warriors" or "Cannonball Run," I'd be wary of too many groups competing over the same pile of beans. IME, it just gets to be too much to keep up with on the players' end. ("Who does this guy work for again?"; "Who was his secretary sleeping with again?")

With inventive/creative players, I might even leave one faction blank to be filled in after character creation. It might save you the trouble of having to shoehorn a player invention into the mix later.

One thing that I should mention is that, according to Ron's original ideas about Relationship Maps, the only thing that counts as a relationship are those of sex and blood. That is, if the character isn't related closely to another, or sleeping with them, the tie between the characters isn't properly a "relationship" for purposes of this technique.

Mike

I was under the impression that ties of obligation (such as NPC A being NPC B's slave or NPC C owing NPC E (his drug dealer) a lot of money) were okay too. Is that in Sorcerer's Soul or have I just carried something over from the forums here?

Scott

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Mike, you always confuse people about relationship maps.

Scott, here goes.

1. Make the maps with ties of kin and sexual contact.

2. Other characters should then be classified in two ways:

a) into "extensions" of the characters on the map (which I draw as little "sticks" off a given bubble; this isn't discussed in The Sorcerer's Soul)

b) bona fide further relationships on the map with ties and bubbles of their own; just label the bubbles ("works for") or whatever.

3. Avoid all ties defined by an *emotion alone* or by *events.* Those should merely be present in your notes about the characters. The dotted lines in one of the maps in The Sorcerer's Soul was intended to be present as such a note, not as "valid" map stuff.

And for pete's sake, don't confuse ties on the map with any permissible or potential interactions among characters. That's how people mis-read my concept all the time. The map is only part of the notes and concepts one uses for prepping and running; it's not intended to be a limiting factor ("these ties only") for purposes of play.

Best,
Ron

[Scripty]

Thanks for clearing that up, Ron. I was more thinking that I had gotten it wrong and (apparently) I did have it a little mixed up.

One question, though, what is meant by "extensions"?

Would these be artifacts or organizations that belong to the character? Traits or attributes? I don't think I've heard of extensions before.

Scott

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Scott,

"Extensions" isn't a technical term. It's very, very, very easy.

Take a relationship map ... um, OK, Gorhund the bard is sleeping with Ingalda, the chief's wife; the chief is Thurri, and his son by Ingalda is Rald.

So far so good. Now, let's say there are two other characters we want to consider in the scenario, Anni who's Ingalda's maid; and Fergus Black, the chief's main hatchet-man. Neither is related to any other character we care about and has no sexual connection with them either.

Fine. At this point in the prep, I'm all about Fergus, who's got a [fill-in-the-blank] and who's twice been nearly outlawed because he [fill-in-the-blank]'d. What I'm saying is, I'm looking forward to playing this guy as an NPC.

Is he on the map? Sure - just draw a line to him from Thurri, label it "hatchet man" or something like that.

But Anni doesn't really grab me especially; in fact, she's in there just because the picture I found that I wanted to use for Ingalda includes a maid kneeling next to her chair. So all I do is draw a little line off of Ingalda like a little twig or something, and label it "Anni/maid."

None of this has anything to do with what happens in play. For all I know, by the end of the first session, a player-character will have married Anni and sworn to return her to her people, and another will have assassinated my prime-cut favorite NPC Fergus. I haven't the faintest idea.

All I know is that I now have a couple of other characters on the map, drawn and labeled in such a way that it's useful.

Best,
Ron

[Scripty]

Great. Thanks for explaining that, Ron. I'll definitely be using it on my next R-Map.

Scott

[doubtofbuddha]

Why hog that all for yourself. Do this a lot and your job becomes easier and easier until you're just the facilitator with final say on arbitration.

To be quite honest, because I like framing scenes and playing NPCs, and writing scenarios. Thats whats enjoyable about it for me. My enjoyment would be lessened if I followed your suggestions.

Hmm. If you're sure everyone liked it then go ahead. You're sure that you're not just injecting your own PC into the game? What I mean is, if at all possible, have the PCs use that character, or defeat him, or somehow leverage his cool capabilities to look interesting themselves. The story is about the PCs, not that NPC.  

I am pretty sure they would. The main reason I see for including him again is that they encountered this nameless NPC who was able to defeat them (barely) in a martial contest, it almost demands that they encounter him again at some later time (and defeat him).

Cool. Remember, ask for scenes, and conflicts, not for results of those conflicts.

Right. This was more of a method of me feeling out oeach of the players then anything else.

This is what we call color. Do the exact same things, just color them differently. Have someone have a goal that's to complete a Hero Quest, needing one of the PCs to come along. Have guardians at temples become NPCs. Etc, etc.

Hmm...
How would you include events such as a flash flood into the whole bang-relationship map set-up?
I mean, it doesn't really ask a question for the PC to answer and it doesn't neccessarily have some sort of enemy force behind it?

Is this the sort of thing that you just don't include in a narrativist design or is there something I am missing?

I personally don't see why people have a cognative problem with this. But they do, so I guess I should try to be more understanding. The only thing that I can suggest is that, if people want some rationale, then say that it's the spirits of the thing that they're being confronted by. Maybe the ancestral spirits of the tomb are actually making it look like the mural is wrong, and the roll is to get it right. I dunno, do what you have to do. But it shouldn't feel silly at all.  

Well we didn't have any problem with the character making a roll and the complex "resisting" the attempts to decipher the murals. The problems came up when I had the tomb perform "actions" in the context of the extended contest.  I had trouble coming up with an appropriate explanation as to what, exactly, the tomb was doing to bid its APs.

But they still wanted to play? What would you attribute that to?

Yeah, when he told me that I told him I doubted that there was really much that the game was going to really offer him. He is the only one whom I did not get feedback fromt he last session about though. So we will see what happens...

Look at the character sheet. Often you'll find something there that you hadn't seen before. What's the character's highest score? If nothing else, threaten to take that ability away. If it's, say, swordsmanship, then the other thing that they value is their right arm. How can you threaten that? Remember that demon above? Use some magic.

I thinks thats my major basis for concern. It doesn't really seem she overly values anything. I think we might have to play some more before she forms attachments (or maybe she won't who knows. She is new to the entire gaming thing).

Sim think. What's in Neara's character is whatever you can plausibly get away with. Nothing is established until the player's see it. So, if it's more interesting for her to do something corrupt, and you haven't established something in-game that makes her unlikely to do it, she does it. If you need motivation, create some. Uh, her lover said do it or he'll leave her. People can change "character" for all sorts of reasons. Just make one up.

Fair enough. I think thats the path I will likely have her follow then.

Perfect. Have them get pregnant anyhow. Then work out how it happened. Must be powerful magic, right? Must mean somebody wants this child badly, right? Means it'll be unexpected and really a problem, right? :-)

Hmmm, another good point. I will keep that in mind if we continue to the point where thats an issue.

Especially since he specicially mentioned that he currently doesn't have much control over said myth powers.

Oh I do cherish the player. He is one of the four I am inviting to my new game. :)

Nice, very nice. Work on the plausibility angle, however. That is, make up some good backstory that explains why Unsur knows this information. If you use the same draw too many times across too many characters without working it out, the player will start to see that you're just moving the motive around. Hmmm. Did Unsur perhaps talk to whasisname about the information at the bar? Why would that have come up?

Oh, of course.

What I am thinking is I will have it so that he knows because the PPH's father is the first mate on the ship he sails on. This way I can pull the captain back onto the map and draw the PPH a bit more towards the larger map.

Nice. Pretty dramatic for the NPC, but really highlights the PCs decision. If the player doesn't really enjoy that scene of her boss crawling back, I don't know what to say. :-)

Oh, I think she will love it. :D

She is my other "valued player" from this group.

Cool. Hit it again, then with some rumor of it having gone wrong last time. But then up the ante on the other side at the same time. Fun, fun.

Actually, I am thinking I am going to go with Neara = corrupt angle and she sees the DHPN as a threat to her rule. She is going to try to have him assassinated during the ritual by having the typical "symbolic" sacrifice turned into a real one. Perhaps it is helping to empower her or something. Making it so she's really a demon just adds to this. I can see the potential of a nice final confrontation coming out of this. ::grins::

LOL. I love the afraid thing. That could go all sorts of places. And as it's definitely a Flaw sort of thing, give it to him for free (again per the rules, can't remember the page). Should help him with the decision. This is exactly what that rule is for, IMO. Anything that the GM thinks can be used against the PC a health amount of the time he should feel to give for no cost.

I will go ahead and do that if this game ends up continuing.
I am thinking I should have had his myth-hero show up then, but oh well..

So you're telling me that the players are putting some pressure on you to continue? Hmm. That should be a good sign, no? As far as finishing the stories, put it in the player's minds that it's a possibility. Most of the time it'll be some player initiative that ends the story. They'll tell you that they'd prefer a death scene in one case, or that their attainment of a certain position is all they're interested in for the player. Whatever, it's usually best to leave it to the player.

Well the previous assumption after the complaints after session 2 were that we would bring the game to a close if things weren't looking better after the next few sessions. Apparently the players who were present last session decided that they really liked it. So.... Scheduling's going to be annoying as two of my players have built-in schedule conflicts.

The challenge here is to make the PCs getting grabbed by the new map plausible. There's nothing less plausible than a second group of people all latching onto a group of strangers at random after a first group had done so - too much coincidence. This can be accomplished in several ways.

Yeah
Basically, I think it would probably be best to redraw the map using my existing set of NPCs as reference points. I will cross off the ones that really don't have a use anymore or are "gone" and draw in new ones that are connected to the remaining characters.

Anyhow, you know your players better than I, and have a good grasp of the techniques involved. So what I would enjoy (and I think others, too) would be if you would post your second map to the site as you move to it - assuming that the game continues. What would be really good is if you could follow it with some commentary about why you made the decisions that you did. That would make this thread really educational.

If it continues I will. If not I will go ahead and build my new map for the Lunar Empire campaign up along with explanations of why each character is present and such, and, as the campaign progresses, post the item that you requested.

Big Question of the next campaign "Can an Individual Escape From the Weight Of Their Past Lives?"

:D

Jesse Dean