Riddle Of The Spice

[Gary_Bingham]

Guys,
I am preparing to run a game for my regular group set in Frank Herbert's Dune background. I love this background and I would not be the first person on this forum to point out that the TROS system with it's focus on authentic medieval melee combat and Spirital Attributes is a the perfect system to run such a game with a minimum of drift.

I am currently in the process of adapting the combat system. The base TROS combat system is perfect but the problem I am having is modelling shield-combat. Body shields are effectively man-sized force shields which affects objects passing through the shield at a velocity of more than 6 to 9 inches per second, and prevents the object from penetrating the shield. Neat huh!

Successful attacks through a body-shield are achieved through a slow moving attack with an off-hand and often poisoned blade, normally delivered after a feint or a grapple. I am adding the feature of fatigue in the body shield concept which is only hinted at in the books, such that the charge in a body-shield can be depleted by repeated blows thus leaving the target unprotected and vulnerable.

I am not completely sure how this will play in a TROS combat situation, nor have I given a lot of thought as yet to the detail. One of my worries is that combat could go on a very long time.

Have any of you given any thought to a TROS Dune game and if so do you have any advice  for me, or feedback on the above?

thanks in advance,
Gary

[Mike Holmes]

This comes up a lot. Here are a couple of examples.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7076
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5503

I didn't read too closely, so I'm not sure if there have been any successful implementations.

What I'd do is keep it simple, and descriptive. That is, I'd just say that if you're fighting against a person with a shield, and you don't have one, that you lose. It's just too much of an advantage. If both, or neither have shields, conduct combat as normal, and just describe things appropriately.

No muss, no fuss.

Mike

[Gary_Bingham]

LO Mike thanks for replying,
I had seen the second of your links a while back I must have missed the first. It was closer to what I was after but not quite ...

I want dueling with shields to be a centrepiece, perhaps the final battle with the antagonist. As such I want the play to be detailed. Feel realistic. The way that TROS does for conventional combat. I don't really want to fluff it and handle it through narration.

It's true I don't want fuss. I guess what I am looking for is an elegant way to model shield fightning within the system.

I'll let you all know how I get on.

Gary

Paul directed a parry downward, turned, saw Helleck's rapier catch against the table's edge. Paul flung himself aside, thrust high with rapier and came in across Halleck's neckline with the bodkin. He stopped an inch from the jugular.
 'Is this what you seek?' Paul whispered.

[/size]

[Mike Holmes]

See, I don't see the difference in description other than adding words like "slowly", "carefully", "Subtly", "secretly", and "silently". And only occasionally.

That is, in your quote, you see that there was a parry, and a thrust that was a feint. IIRC, what follows is that Gurney points down to where he had actually gotten a knife in to where he would have killed Paul first. Call it a counter or a feint of his own or something.

That is, the descriptions in Dune shield combat seem to be indenitcal, mechanically, to normal combat. The only difference is the speed at which things happen. Otherwise the strategy is the same. So the only difference that I see is that rounds are longer in shield combat, and the actual moves (which TROS does not deal with), are a bit more subtle, complex, whathaveyou.

One thing that does occur to me, in terms of simulating, is that a proficiency learned in terms of shield combat should not be the same as unshielded. That is they should be two different proficeiencies, one defaulting to the other (-2?). This would account for the description of how Paul seems to be "toying" with Chani's husband, when in actuality he just hasn't adjusted for the lack of shields.

Another thing that you might want to do is to take ST and weapon size out of the damage calculation for shield combat. Given that a faster penetration gets slowed proportionally, damage should equal out, I'd think. This is why placement and poison are so important in this sort of combat. I'd just call all damage equal to successes rolled only (and be sure to use alternate TO rules), representing the placement of the blow.

Is that any better?

Mike

[Bob McNamee]

You should also rule that pretty much no missile weapons can effect a Shielded person. (I believe there's some few hunter missiles and such)

Which will make dueling that much more important. (thus playing to TROS strength)

[Gary_Bingham]

See, I don't see the difference in description other than adding words like "slowly", "carefully", "Subtly", "secretly", and "silently". And only occasionally.

That is, in your quote, you see that there was a parry, and a thrust that was a feint. IIRC, what follows is that Gurney points down to where he had actually gotten a knife in to where he would have killed Paul first. Call it a counter or a feint of his own or something.

Yes, Gurney allows Paul to make the attack giving him an opening to strike a killing blow himself. Less a counter more a sacrifice :)

That is, the descriptions in Dune shield combat seem to be indenitcal, mechanically, to normal combat. The only difference is the speed at which things happen. Otherwise the strategy is the same. So the only difference that I see is that rounds are longer in shield combat, and the actual moves (which TROS does not deal with), are a bit more subtle, complex, whathaveyou.

Absolutely i don't want to tweak the TROS system too much, it is almost a perfect match as is.

One thing that does occur to me, in terms of simulating, is that a proficiency learned in terms of shield combat should not be the same as unshielded. That is they should be two different proficeiencies, one defaulting to the other (-2?). This would account for the description of how Paul seems to be "toying" with Chani's husband, when in actuality he just hasn't adjusted for the lack of shields.

Just the sort of thing I was thinking of, a Shield-fighting proficency. Focused on the Fast Defence/Slow Attack mentality, which may hinder a adherrent when fightning without shields. A perfect example as you say is the Jamis-Paul duel, where Paul was attacking a fraction of a second too slow to actually strike the Fremen and thus appeared to be playing cat and mouse with him.

Another thing that you might want to do is to take ST and weapon size out of the damage calculation for shield combat. Given that a faster penetration gets slowed proportionally, damage should equal out, I'd think. This is why placement and poison are so important in this sort of combat. I'd just call all damage equal to successes rolled only (and be sure to use alternate TO rules), representing the placement of the blow.

I was thinking of a new manouver called Slip-Tip or Attack-Sinister which would have a high prep cost (4 dice?) but would reduce (50%) or negate armour TO. Note I was thinking of setting shield toughness to 12.

Thus Paul, could have made a Feint and Attack Sinister to Gurney's neckline. Gurney countered this with an Attack Sinister of his own.

Is that any better?

Great this helps a lot Mike
Gary

[Mike Holmes]

See, giving the shield an armor rating is exactly what I'd want to avoid. It says then that the the TO can be overcome with more force. Which is precisely not the case.

Armor is an interesting case. I'd consider it separate from shields. I like your slip-tip idea (though I think it sorta circumvents some of the normal ideas about how the armor rules work). I see another option for killing someone in this circumstance, call it knife wrestling. That is, you grapple with the opponent and try to force the knife into some opening in order to kill them. This requires a successful set up to engage in. The I'd just make this a contest of ST (SAs particularly important here), successes resulting in damage of an equal level. Hence why the slip-tip is so important for those who aren't really strong.

Outside of these two methods, I see characters having real problems killing armored and shielded opponents. By that, I mean that I'd still drop out ST and weapon damage from the calculation per my above post. This is why knives are preferred - they have good TNs and do the same damage. Hmmm.

Thinking about it, I'd make all DTNs better by 4 with shield fighting. Yes, this means that defense is much, much easier, but that seems to make sense as well. And will make tactics much different. And again make knives more viable. If all dice in defense tend to score then it's important to make sure that all dice in offense score as well.

Oh, another thing, shields make the length modifiers moot. You can always close as the weapon slowly penetrates. Another reason to use knives - no advantage for longer weapons. In fact, I might even say that all combat is just considered at shortest range so that longer weapons would be at a disadvantage constantly.

Hmm. Really is more to it than I thought. I wonder if there are any implications for stealing initiative and stuff like that.

Mike

[Gary_Bingham]

See, giving the shield an armor rating is exactly what I'd want to avoid. It says then that the the TO can be overcome with more force. Which is precisely not the case.

You are right of course. A more accurate way to model shield TO may be (attackers total ST)+1. But this has the effect of just making the shield impenetrable. I felt that setting the TO high would have the same effect. Also there has to be a limit to the TO of a shield. If a wall fell on a shield I would say that the shield energy pack would deplete repelling the force of the attack. so maybe a TO of 20 maybe more appropriate.

Armor is an interesting case. I'd consider it separate from shields. I like your slip-tip idea (though I think it sorta circumvents some of the normal ideas about how the armor rules work).

I kinda think of shields as virtually impenetrable armour That way you don't have to have to have a completely different system. For normal manouvers the armour applies, for an Attack Sinister manouver the armour does not apply. However the Attack Sinister has a high set-up cost and perhaps a minus to damage so it is difficult to use.  

I see another option for killing someone in this circumstance, call it knife wrestling. That is, you grapple with the opponent and try to force the knife into some opening in order to kill them. This requires a successful set up to engage in. The I'd just make this a contest of ST (SAs particularly important here), successes resulting in damage of an equal level. Hence why the slip-tip is so important for those who aren't really strong.

I see Grapples, Counters, Feints and Bind and Strike all being crucial to a shield fighter.

I'll have to consider the rest of your post later Mike I am off to see LOTR: The Return of the King :)

Hmm. Really is more to it than I thought. I wonder if there are any implications for stealing initiative and stuff like that.

I think we need to keep it simple. There i will say it again ... elegant
Gary

[Mike Holmes]

If a wall fell on a shield I would say that the shield energy pack would deplete repelling the force of the attack. so maybe a TO of 20 maybe more appropriate.

If hit by a lasgun, they cause an atomic chain reaction. I'm fairly certain that walls are no big deal. That is the stuff would still fall through, but slowed. The person inside might get crushed by weight, but not by impact.

I kinda think of shields as virtually impenetrable armour That way you don't have to have to have a completely different system. For normal manouvers the armour applies, for an Attack Sinister manouver the armour does not apply. However the Attack Sinister has a high set-up cost and perhaps a minus to damage so it is difficult to use.

I don't think I could play it that way. Shields are described as only slowing the velocity of an object in proportion to it's incoming velocity. Meaning that the result is that slower is faster after a point. Anything going slow enough can get through a shield, and going faster=more momentum=more damage is slowed to ineffectiveness.

I see Grapples, Counters, Feints and Bind and Strike all being crucial to a shield fighter.

I agree. I just don't know that any of this covers that scene you see where both guys have their hands on one knife, and are trying to force it into the other guy's face. That's what I'm trying to simulate here. Using my system against a guy with both armor and a shield, you aren't likely to ever hurt them using normal tactics - which I think makes sense. Hence why my method needs the slip-tip and the knife grapple maneuver.

With your method of making shields have loads of armor, you can't possibly damage somebody using anything but the slip-tip. Normal maneuvers won't work at all, interior armor or not.

I'll have to consider the rest of your post later Mike I am off to see LOTR: The Return of the King :)

Bastard. I missed it last night because my son is ill. I'll likely have to wait for the weekend.

Mike

[Lxndr]

Odd idea, take it what you will:

Shield's TO = (Attacker's Reflex) + 1, with the caveat that an attacker can reduce the shield's TO by reducing the amount of Reflex they put into a hand-to-hand fight (and thus reducing their combat pool).  In other words, by moving slower, they reduce the TO.

I'd also drop out ST (but not weapon) damage.

[Judd]

What if a shield on your opponent means that every attack you make has to have a prep cost, representing how hard it is to set up an attack?  Maybe a 3 CP cost for each attack?

[Caz]

I like both of those ideas, especially the CP activation cost.  I'm using that!

[GaGrin]

or what if the sheild doesn't stop damage at all but acts like a bonus to defence?

For example:
every die past the first the attacker puts into his attack costs the number of dice already in the attack?

so 1 die is 1 die
2 costs 3
3 costs 6
4 costs 10 etc.

Just adding my ideas to the pool, I don't know if that suits and its been ages since I read Dune.

[Gary_Bingham]

Lots of great ideas there

I am going to go with assigning a shield a TO value, this keeps the game in-line with the standard TROS system. I know you are against this Mike and I am still open to be convinced but I have based the following mod to the TROS rules on a variable TO for shields as a prototype.

Shield Toughness
Shield TO is variable dependent on the attackers weapon Dam + 5. (the logic here is that in order to beat a shield with a normal attack you will need more than 5 successes tough but not impossible) Shield is countered as separate to and not in addition to conventional armour. Certain attacks can circumvent the TO of a shield but never the armour behind the shield.

Attack-Sinister (aka Slip-Tip)
Activation Cost : 4CP (3CP with a dagger sized weapon)
Benefits : -2 to Targets TO and -1 per addition all CP spent
The Attack Sinister is a slow attack normally with a off-handed dagger designed to penetrate a body shield. The slower the blade the better the penetration, but also the less chance of doing any damage. The attacker must decid how slowly to move the blade. For each CP spent the TO of the shield is reduced by one to the minimum of the TO of the conventional armour worn by the target.

Grapples
This does not mean that Grapples will not work, in fact it makes them more attractive. Grappling to Pin will allow an attacker to pour large amounts of CP into an Attack Sinister. This models an opponent being held down as dagger is slowly pushed through the shield. It may be necessary to increase the activation cost for grappling a shielded target.

Feints
I would add an additional category of Feint, the Feint-and-Attack-Sinister. This would have similar rules to the normal feints with the additional option to reduce the TO of the shield for every CP spent in the manner of a normal Attack Sinister.

Bind and Strike, Block Open and Strike, and Counters
These function as normal in shield fighting. When successfully employed they free up additional CP for the attacker to use an Attack Sinister.

Shield Fighting proficency

Offensive Manouvers
Attack sinister (4/3)
Bind and Strike (0)
Cut (0)
Feint (1)
Simultaneous Block/Strike (0)

Defensive Manouvers
Block (0)
Block Open and Strike (2)
Counter (2)
Explusion (2)
Grapple (2)
Parry (0)

Defaults
Rapier (0)
Dagger (0)
Wrestling (0)
Case of Rapiers -1
Cut & Thrust -2
Doppelhander -4
Greatsword -3
Mass-weapon and Shield -5
Pole-arms -3
Poleaxe -4
Pugilism/Brawling -2
Sword and shield -2

Gary

[Valamir]

I am completely 100% failing to see what you're trying to accomplish Gary.

At most you simply need a "shielded" version of each proficiency.

Someone has Knife fighting and Knife fighting (shield) or Rapier and Rapier (shield) as seperate proficiencies.  All of the maneuvers etc. for Rapier (shield) are identical to Rapier.  The damage done is identical to Rapier.  The ATN and DTNs are identical to rapier.  The only difference is that the (shield) version is slowed to account for fighting a shielded opponent.

There are no other rules that you need.

If niether have shields use the rules exactly for TROS now using the non shield version of the proficiency.  If both have shields use the rules exactly for TROS now using the shield version of the proficiency.  If you are using the wrong version of the proficiency you have a penalty (like defaults at -2 as Mike suggested).

That's it.  What other rules could you possibly need that aren't already there.

What happens when a shielded guy fights a non shielded guy?  The non shielded guy dies.  Period.  There is no fight because the shielded guy can attack (using the non shield proficiency) at full speed, while the naked guy has to to attack in slow motion to deal with the speed.

There are alot of guys practicing weapons here, they typically will spar at 1/2 or 1/4 speed to avoid injury.  Ask them what happens if one guy fights at 1/4 speed while the other fights at full.  Pretty lop sided contest.

Now.  One could say the naked guy could defend himself at full speed, its only his attacks that need to be slow.  So maybe you actually want to fight out the naked guy desperately trying to defend himself long enough for help to arrive.

Simple.  Naked guy's ATN gets changed to a 10 to reflect how hard it is to attack in slow motion against an opponent who can defend at full speed.  With no fear of his opponent's attack, shield guy can dump dice into attacks of his own making it pretty much an all out attack vs all out defense engagment.

But if they both have shields, use the normal ATNs because basically the effect of the shield simply puts them on equal footing.  After all, the sole purpose of shields in the story is to allow for duels uninterrupted by gun fire.  Everything else is just techno babble anyway.

In other words, there really isn't anything special you need to do IMO.

(which is pretty much what Mike has said a couple of times now).