Rapid fire

[Caz]

This is for interested in modern/futuristic ballistic firearms in TROS.
   I've been doing it differently, but I tried this recently for rapid fire rules and I'd like to know what ya'll think.
   It's simplified an abstract, but it works better with a missile pool than what I was doing before.  Here's the base of it.
   Double tap (sqeezing the trigger twice in rapid succession on semi auto)-is -1 MP activation.
   3 round burst- -2 MP.
   6 round burst (automatic fire) - -3 MP.
 1 roll for all rounds in the burst to hit, but a seperate d6 roll for each round that hits, and naturally each round does seperate damage.  
   
 Different firearms may have different rates of fire adjusted accordingly, but most will fit into the examples above.  
 
 My one issue with this so far is all the rounds strike the target on a successful roll.  I think I'll make up a chart like GURPS has for autofire, where # of successes correspond to the number of rounds that hit in a burst.  Or maybe just use the # of successes rolled also as the # of rounds that hit.
   Like I said, simple and abstract, but I think this will be easy to build on as well, and it should be fun.

[Jake Norwood]

How important is it to know how many bullets hit? If you go with 1 success = 1 bullet, then what happens if you only fire one bullet? What happens if you fire 30 bullets but only roll 5 dice?

Does each bullet do the same wound level, or is that different with each bullet? If so, how is the WL determined?

I like your base MP rules, though. I want to see this finished out (so I can play with them)

Jake

[Ingenious]

The first thing to determine with automatic weapons is their ROF, or rounds fired per second.  Some machine guns can shoot well over 300 rounds per minute, or 5 rounds per second. I would then take that figure and roll each bullet individually to see if it hit. Depending on the power of the gun, and how balanced it is.. should dictate if there is 'kicking-up'(I think that is the term used), where the next bullet fired in a burst is shot higher than the previous bullet. If you've ever gone into an indoor shooting range and noted the holes in the ceiling this is what I mean. So maybe there should be modifiers for that, small ones at least.. maybe taking 1 die away from the MP of the next shot, cumulative for all shots fired in an exchange. This is of course, if the gun is not balanced.. an inexperienced shooter.. etc.
So here's the hypothetical equation.
My character would have an MP of like 6.. first bullet fired at 6, the second at 5, third and 4, fourth at 3.. etc.

-Ingenious

[LordSmerf]

I generally advocate mechanical simplicity when it comes to burst fire (read: don't track each round seperately.)  I tend to think that a burst gives up some time and ammo for better chances to hit.  If i were to do up a RoS version (which i wouldn't, i haven't found a good way to simulate some of the situations i would want to simulate yet) i would simply give burts lower ATN with a higher Activation Cost.

Thomas

[Jake Norwood]

i would simply give burts lower ATN

Burts around the world are rejoicing, I'm sure.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

Some machine guns can shoot well over 300 rounds per minute, or 5 rounds per second.

... and then there's the O'Dwyer Metalstorm that fires a million rounds a minute. :-)

No, really.

Brian.

[Ingenious]

Okay Brian.. that's cool.

But I was speaking more in terms of weapons capable of being carried.
You try and lug that thing around with a million rounds of ammo. (It could be done in conjunction with those exoskeleton suits that was mentioned in TROS: Tanks, Guns, and Giant Robots...)
And if a grocery worker has enough time on his hands to dream this stuff up and create it, imagine what I could be doing with my free time and money.

But someone brought up the point of sacrificing ammo for a better chance to hit. I like that point. Yea you could do it that way, and it would probably be much faster than my idea... but it still wouldn't solve the problem that Jake mentioned, how many hits and at what levels would all of those bullets do?

I guess you can look at a burst of fire much like a ranged 'cut' in terms of location of damage etc. Say you shoot and draw your fire at a diagonal angle for example, or a horizontal one. Depending on how steady the guy's hands are would translate into whether or not some of the bullets traverse higher than the others, thus possibly hitting the target in a different zone... if you swung in a horizontal fashion... trying to mow down a series of opponents in one round. You can expand on this if you feel like, since I lack the knowledge of the rulebook to write anything specific about it.
Now on to the amount of damage caused. Straying away from the 'levels' of wounds I would suggest using the target zone that got hit to tell you if it has the possiblily of killing someone...i.e. the head, heart, lungs, stomach.. etc. Not everyone will drop dead from being hit in the shoulder, the leg, arm, groin... well... maybe the groin... etc. I think that would be logical since if we're going semi-realistic/historical here, there would be much better advances in medicine and surgery and such that not every bullet would is fatal.. should there be a hospital or rapid transportation available. But with this and mutliple gunshot wounds... bloodloss and shock of course would be the same, if not more on the bloodloss since bullets tend to travel through bodies easily. But, there is also the point of kevlar vests and such negating possibly some of the bullet wounds... unless someone uses a high powered rifle or machine gun with some tungsten bullets... So in my mind, if it hits you it hurts, there's blood, shock.. pain... etc. but it doesnt mean it is fatal.. if it doesnt.. there isnt any damage except maybe the wind getting knocked out of you.. so apply some penalties to that situation when it comes to it.

Hope this helps.
-Ingenious

[Caz]

OK I've been tinkering with it all day and I've got a lot fleshed out.
Like I said, it's a bit abstract and imperfect, but for the sake of not getting over complex it should be as good as any game without sacrifincing anything.
 Here are the basics of it.  Different weapons vary, but this covers the vast majority properly, and the exceptions are simple adjustments.
   For most modern ballistic firearms, the recoil penalty is 1cp per round after the first, fired in succession.  So 1 shot/turn is normal MP, 2 shots you'd be at -1MP, 3 rounds would cost you 2MP, etc.  
   
   The # of successes are the # of rounds that strike the target from your burst.  It is also added to the damage as usual.  But, roll a D6 for each round seperately that strikes the target area.
 
  This is all a compromise for not being too complex or too much lack of detail, while working well with the system at hand, and I think this method is turning out to be fun so far.

   Naturally you can only fire as many rounds in your turn as the weapon can spit out.  Semi auto should be 2-4 shots a round generally.  All this general info I get from my GURPS books, since the weapons capabilities and turn times are about the same.

Here are some more basics to throw in...
 
   Light mchine gun or support weapons recoil cost for an average burst when braced properly can be, say, -3 MP for a 6 round burst.

Hip shot- -1 MP for every meter past 1.

Scopes- reduce the weapons range penalties after a certain distance for aimed shots.

Reflexive fire or point shooting can simply be handled as either hip shots or firing before your MP refreshed by a 2nd increment (pointing but not taking time to aim)

Laser sights- they won't help you aim any better than normal sights, but they can eliminate penalties for firing from the hip, some darkness, etc.  Maybe refresh your MP by +1 in the first increment.  Same with smart links.

AMMO
I use full metal jacket ball ammo as the base for DR of my firearms.
Here are some others (though this is made for the DR of my designs, if your stats are different for your weapons these will vary as well.
1. Hollow points- +3 shock, pain, and BL. -3 vs armour.
2. AP- -3 shock and BL, +3 vs armour.
3. Shot (when used in shotguns)- -1 ATN.
4. Target loads, wadcutters, etc.- -2 damage(taken off the armour mod first) and -1 recoil cost.

I made up some hnd grenade stuff too.  I'm fine tuning modern weapon damage/stats in playtest at the moment.  

The recoil costs can be adjusted like this...
   Say you're using a big gun that kicks like a mule, increase it.  Using a .22 rifle?  Lower it.  Elephant gun- -2 MP to fire the other barrel right after the first shot in the same round.  .22 semi auto rifle, -1 MP for every 2 or 3 rounds fired in rapid succession, etc.  
   There's really not much to change at all once you get into rapid fire futuristic recoiless weapons.
   It can also be adjusted for how the character braces or fires the weapon, his position, it could be lowered if the weapon has an extremely fast rate of fire, etc. etc.

[Caz]

Some of my reasoning, mostly from personal experience, to help explain why I'm doing it this way.

The ROF of the weapon changes how many rounds you can fire in your turn, not the mechanics of it, so it's not a priority.
   
I definitely think that each round should do seperate damage, but it would make it overly complex and time consuming to roll seperately for each using the TROS rules.  I've tried.

It's quite difficult with assault rifles to strike the target with all rounds fired in automatic or burst.  (it's mainly for suppression, luck, or added lethality at short range).  It's generally useless to go auto with anything but support weapons, which are less susceptible to recoil when used properly.

The importance of knowing how many rounds strike the target is the same as knowing how many arrows struck your character in a medieval game.  The difference between wounds and death.  I think it's definitely overly simplified and unrealistic to say all rounds hit and you get one lump sum of damage, especially when armour comes into play.  

   I've studied the discussions, and the above comments, and this seems to be a not unrealistic compromise between the overly complex and overly simple ideas, without altering the system, and it's turning out to be pretty playable.  It's got a lot of room for modification for the weapon and the characters actions.

[Ingenious]

Okay having read my previous post I realize how D&D like that is. *shudders*  Uhhh whoah, half-assed brainstorm as follows: Maybe with firearms we could stray away from traditional TROS ranged rules. How's about not using a traditional MP based on ability points, since shooting and aiming a gun takes faaaar less effort than what the MP was made for in the first place? Use the number of shots fired to dictate however many dice are in the MP(should be called GP for gun pool, since missile-fire and gun-fire are two separate terms and methods of attack)And maybe add the number of seconds you waited to aim and then add each point for AIM to whichever dice you want This would be extremely fast but might not be economical unless you can buy many many d10's(No Brian.. I'm not going to roll a million dice for your million round per minute super-gun)

Hypothetical scenario:
Stan fires a mini-gun at person X. Minigun fires at 20 shots per second(obviously misrepresented number for sheer simplicity of explanation).
Stan then rolls 20d10 to see how many hit. Let's say only 3 hit, but 4 of them are near-hits. Stan can use his AIM attribute's #(such a thing exists right? i think...) to however many dice he wants in order to make them hit.
Much like the gift accuracy but slighty different.. doesnt change shot location... just number of hits. Also possibly add the number of seconds it took to aim and fire so that can be used the same way.

Now then, to amplify the missed shot factor. Instead of having it be that 2 1's on a roll causes a critical fumble..(in a typical attack roll) have it be that every 1 rolled in a burst is an automatic miss.

Brutally simple, yet elegant in that it gives people a clear understand of the rules for automatic firearms(I would hope)... and that it is fast also has the effect of doing aaaaalot of damage.(potentially)

Oh, forgot to mention that Stan forgot to roll for hit locations. Well, with 20 bullets, roll 20 of whatever die that is to determine hit location. This addresses Caz' concern of rolling each attack and hit location seperately... but again if it isnt economical to have so many dice... *shrug* You can buy alot of dice when you set your mind to it. A friend once bought 40d10 with like $35 in case we ran out of d10's. But I was a cheapass and bought them small dice... 10d10 for like $5.60 So that might have saved someone almost $15. Oh, and accuracy where applicable for the characters that have it.

-Ingenious
I'm too tired to think anymore. It's 3AM, and I have nothing better to do.

Ah hell, if ya can't afford the dice, just pool everyone's dice together so everyone can use that amount of dice if they need it.
....that's a very communistic thought hahahahahahahahahahaha

[Caz]

All ideas are worth considering.  Personally I think that the MP rules are perfect for firearms, really, it's just working out the rapid fire bits.  

   A characters skill (his MP) automatically limits his skill, especially when he tries to use an automatic weapon, which I like.

   Here's an optional rule to what I designed, closer to what I was trying before.  It's a little more realistic, but naturally more time consuming, and I like keeping it as an option, because like I said, I think what I designed is easy to work off of.

   Instead of rolling once for your burst with the cumulative MP cost for rapid fire, roll the same increment of MP once for each round, applying the appropriate MP activtion cost.  This will take longer but give hits and damage seperate rolls, so not every bullet does the same amount of damage.

Example of the standard method:  We'll say Vhord from the TROS books bow prof. is now pistol.  He has a MP of 6.  He raises the weapon to fire, MP refreshes.  (ATN 7, + 1 every 10 meters) and he wants to shoot twice at a guy about 9 meters away, center mass, so no modifiers.  He's -1 mp for taking the second shot.  He rolls and gets 2 successes, so both rounds hit.  (the guy wasn't looking, so he didn't try defending).  The DR is 5 (+ 2 vs armour) + successes.  The guy wasn't wearing a vest, so he took 2 lvl 3 wounds to area XII, the chest.  (lvl 7, - TO of 4)  He rolls a d6 for each round, taking seperate wounds if need be, on the puncture damage table. Etc.

Example of optional seperate rolls for each round fired:  Same situation, Vhord levels his beretta 9mm and his MP refreshes to 6.  He wants to fire 2 rounds.  For his first shot, there's no penalty.  He rolls 6 die vs TN 7, and gets 3 successes.  After TO, that's a lvl 5 wound to the chest.  A d6 is rolled, and damge is dealt.  Because this is happening very quickly, the GM allows the second shot before the guy drops.  Using the same increment of his MP, now with a -1 die recoil cost, he rolls 5 dice.  He gets one success, resulting in a lvl 2 wound after the d6 roll and TO.    

There you have it.  They're slightly different, one tkes a little more time than the other.  I allow the PCs to use either of them.  If they don't want to take the time they use the expedited single attack roll.  Their choice.  I do think it's turning out well.

[Ingenious]

Cool. Regardless of the way it is rolled at least you got the armor and bullet types in. However, I am of the opinion that your optional rules appear to be better than your primary set of rules. Now the next thing we need to address is the impact of bullets on the body. What exactly would be the effects of a level 5 to the chest? or a level 2 to the legs?
That's pretty straightforward I beleive... as it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a shotgun blast to the kneecap usually results in 1. a shattered kneecap. 2. PAIN 3. penalties to walking...etc
But I would still like to know what you guys come up with for that.

-Ingenious

[Caz]

I think for the most part the puncture tables handle it well.  But, the great thing about them is they leave a lot of room for GM interpretation.  Perhaps you could do close range shot blasts on the cutting, or for some areas on the bashing table?

[deltadave]

i would add MP for burst fire on weapons designed for it. 3 rd burst +1MP 6rd burst +2 MP.

Full auto fire I give a +2mp bonus and require the use of all dice in the MP.  With full auto fire there is a chance of hitting anyone in an arc in front of the character that is not behind 100% cover.

for multiple shots of semi auto fire or multiple bursts I make the players divide up their MP by the number of shots that  they want to do, with each shot having at least one less die in it than the one before it. Number of shots is determined before rolling begins.  For example - given an MP of 10, the player determines that they want to fire three shots. shot one has 4 dice, shot two has no more than 3, and shot three has no more than 2. this also works for multiple bursts of fire (up to the cyclic rate of the weapon).

Also with firearms I use  a wider scatter table for hit location.

Bipods and other stabilizing mounts increase the refresh rate.

Scopes allow a more precise designation of target area and lengthen the base range of the weapon

[Caz]

I wouldn't add mp for weapons just because they're capable of burst or auto fire.  That makes it inherently harder to hit the target.

   The chance of hitting anyone the way you're describing would imply a lack of aiming, and should be dealt with randomly.  

 Also, with aimed bursts, the d6 roll covers it.  For hipshots, I might have ya use the falling random damage tables for the hits.

   I like you're idea of splitting the MP between shots.  I'll try it.

I have bipods and mounts reduce the recoil penalties, not the refresh rate.

Scopes don't let you shoot farther, they just mgnify the target, making them difficult t close ranges or in combat.  I simply hve them reduce the range penalties appropriately.