Magic tweaking

[Ashren Va'Hale]

I am trying to make magic a bit more manageable in my campaigns, basically make it so that the magic using player doesn't end up as the solution to all the problems that it tends to be in my campaigns so far.


ex:

Player 1: I need to rescue that darn girlfirend who went and got caught again by that dastardly duke. But I need to find her room and the key.

Player 2: No problem, lets ask bob to use vision;

Player 3(bob): My character casts his formalized roving eye spell and reconoiters by remote

GM: The key to your girlfriends tower cell in in the far opposite tower around the dukes neck.

Player 1: now we just need to find a way to get in teh castle, steal the key, rescue her and sneak out.

Player 2: Bob, does your guy have movement?
Bob: yeah, level 2

Player 2: Use it to snag the key from the dukes neck and bring it to us?

Player 1: that will work but how do we get past the guards?

Bob: I can use conquer on them! or glamour! just give me some time to work up a good ritual spell or two that I can embed in these rocks.

Player 1: sweet!

Player 2: but bob,wont you age? Nah, I will use a few formalized spells or
cast them as spells of three or rituals using gestures and dialogue and then   my familiar will soak some of the aging and as long as I dont go over 6 months its all good.

(this example stims from an actual scenario by the way)

End of example.

Now this might not be a problem for all gamers but its a pain in the buttocks for me, the magic user in the group becomes a human swiss army knife with a tool for every problem. He/she also tends to then dominate/marginalize the other characters and inevitably becomes the driver so to speak.

So, my solution can be one of two approaches or combo there of:

1- make magic more costly. My way to do this is to make every human sorceror have to take one wound distributed randomly(probably on the bludgeoning table) or using the generic table for each month aged. This represents what happens when a frail human body mishandles magic forces meant for teh fey alone yadda yadda. Whether I do this in conjunction with aging or instead of aging is not decided. I like this solution for its simplicity and ease of implementation. You dont really need to tinker with any of the other rules or character creation. Yet you still have the possibility of "aging" killing or maiming the mage. What player would risk letting his character be used as a swiss army knife left and right if a bad roll will end his life? This would get us back to the essay in the second print about sa's and magic.

2- limit magics scope and power. This can be done in many ways, one guy I know is making the vagaries split into 6 levels instead of 3 and thus slowing progression and power scope. Personally I am making magic more  varied but narrower in scope. In other words, you may have a character who can do SOME of the vision effects but not others, and some of the glamour effects but not others etc. This requires a lot of tinkering though. And I mean a lot. thats re writing character creation and the entire sorcery section and character progression. Not that this might not be fun, but it will be time consuming.

I was hoping for thoughts, input, alternatives etc from the TROS community. Let me know if you have had similar problems and how you handled, or thought of handling them as well as what you think of my ideas. Thanks in advance guys!

[Jaeger]

This is what I call:

 "Let's see what the magic  user does  syndrome"

 Same experiences:
 
GM: This is the situatuion.... Blah blah blah etc.

PC's: The duellist, thief and noble all turn to Bob and say "what can you do?"

Highly annoying. The situation is exaserbated when you have a PC who made his wizard with lots of insight. Then all the players simply fall to a position of guarding the wizard as he makes all thier lives better.

I have also begun dividing the Prof levels into 6 levels instead of 3. This requires no other changes to the magic system, throttles down magic, and makes casting and ageing TN's a force to be reconed with in high power spells.

One of three vagarys I have finished (I just started) And please remember it's a work in progress...

CONQUER:
Implant:
1- an image
2- a simple emotion
3- simple words/thoughts
4- Complex thoughts strong intentions/desires
5- false memories short duration "you were here just a minute ago"
6- spirit/soul/demon/spell - long duration false mem "We spent the whole day together" "I am Legion"

Control:
1- simple reflex action - non threatening
2- speak short phrase -     "      "    
3- performm simple deed - "     "    
4- As 1-3 but threatening or harmful
5- complex tasks and actions
6- Total Dominance "I am the puppet master!"

Repress:
1- recent images " i could have sworn I saw him somewhere before"
2- recent thoughts/memories "where did I put my sword"
3- recent occurance / 1 day "I was where?"
4- all info of a single person/place or thing
5- memories of entire singular events
6-  Mind wipe - you are dealing with a clean slate.

EX: if you control someone you better implant a  memory to make them think they willingly did it or repress the event because anything more than a reflex action and they'll start to wonder...

I think just boosting the levels to six, doubling the cost to raise them after chargen, and only allowing a sorcerer to learn new vagaries if he finds someone to teach him, would be more than enough.

Best of all you do not need to alter any other part of the TROS system. Character generation and the rest of the magic system stay exactly the same.

[deltadave]

you could impose some sort of time limitation such that the sorcerer doesn't have time to develop rituals and use all the other minimization techniques...
don't formalized spells take weeks to develop?

for example: why did the duke catch the girlfriend? is she going to be around for the time it takes to formalize a spell?  if the duke is so dastardly, why doesn't he just throw the girl off of a tall tower balcony when his key to her room goes flying out the window?

Does the duke have magical assistance of his own? if he doesn't, the first time that something like this happens why doesn't he get some? (assuming that he is as cavalier about magic use as the players are)

Perhaps the spell ctns are too low... for example for roving eye unformalized I get a ctn of 7 and formalized it is a 6 (T:0+R:3+V:0+D:1+L:2+1) Vagaries:Movement 2(speed 2, Maneuverability2), Vision 1(clairvoyance 1). meditation may reduce the ctn more but the dialog and gestures have no effect on rituals.

for the grab the key spell, I get a ctn of 9 (t:1+R:3+V:1+D:1+L:2+1)
Vagaries: Move 2 , vision 1.   Doesn't sound like a minor risk to me and that is assuming that the target of the spell doesn't grab the key as it goes floating off. if you want to make it impossible to grab then the move becomes a 3 and D goes down to 0.  If the duke is wearing the key, then I would require either sculpture 1 to break the chain or a volume of 2, target 3 to bring the duke with.  not a trivial spell, just to grab a key.

[Judd]

You could also change it from 1, 2 and 3 to 1, 2 and 4.  Insert soemthing about 3 being an unlucky number for Sorcerers reserved for witch's covens and holy trinities.

Oh and I nearly forgot.  I am considering a rule for my Vagary re-write that any 1's rolled when a 3rd level hoodoo is invoked means that the spell has a complication.  Check out the New Vagaries thread if you care to over at:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9191

Good luck.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

you could impose some sort of time limitation such that the sorcerer doesn't have time to develop rituals and use all the other minimization techniques...
don't formalized spells take weeks to develop?

for example: why did the duke catch the girlfriend? is she going to be around for the time it takes to formalize a spell?  if the duke is so dastardly, why doesn't he just throw the girl off of a tall tower balcony when his key to her room goes flying out the window?

Does the duke have magical assistance of his own? if he doesn't, the first time that something like this happens why doesn't he get some? (assuming that he is as cavalier about magic use as the players are)

Perhaps the spell ctns are too low... for example for roving eye unformalized I get a ctn of 7 and formalized it is a 6 (T:0+R:3+V:0+D:1+L:2+1) Vagaries:Movement 2(speed 2, Maneuverability2), Vision 1(clairvoyance 1). meditation may reduce the ctn more but the dialog and gestures have no effect on rituals.

for the grab the key spell, I get a ctn of 9 (t:1+R:3+V:1+D:1+L:2+1)
Vagaries: Move 2 , vision 1.   Doesn't sound like a minor risk to me and that is assuming that the target of the spell doesn't grab the key as it goes floating off. if you want to make it impossible to grab then the move becomes a 3 and D goes down to 0.  If the duke is wearing the key, then I would require either sculpture 1 to break the chain or a volume of 2, target 3 to bring the duke with.  not a trivial spell, just to grab a key.

vision was cast seperately and held then the move spell was cast which really reduced the range of the spell and the overall target number, so it was more like t:1 r:1 v:1 D:1 l:2 or thereabouts and with gestures and vocalization it went down to tn 4-5 depending on what elements I may be missing.

I didn't want to toss on time limitations that seemed unreasonable just for the purpose of messing the sorceror up although it crossed my mind. It just would have added to the problem any ways which is the story being dominated by the sorceror, only this case passively, by his shear possibility I would have to create an unreasonable situation just to contain him and change the story away from the focus which are the sa's of players 1 and two at that scene.

and magic is so rare in my world that creating a magic using bad guy for the duke would fit in the same cateory as the above. And it would have made the other pc's useless since the duke was the antithesis of the other pc's not the sorceror. Basically, by giving him magic or magic help the other pc's would have been nothing more than fodder.

And as for not tossing the girl off teh balcony, would you throw the girl of your dreams off a balcony? Evil natured or not... and this guy was dastardly in teh selfish, self centered way, not random homocidal way.

[deltadave]

And as for not tossing the girl off teh balcony, would you throw the girl of your dreams off a balcony? Evil natured or not... and this guy was dastardly in teh selfish, self centered way, not random homocidal way.

that sounds fair enough to me...

as for the rest, it sounds as if you have painted yourself into a corner. Personally, I would require the remote eye spell to be all one go but that isn't really the point of the whole thing.

Why does the duke want the girl? to marry, to keep? Why doesn't he just marry her or have his way with her in a reasonable amount of time. It would not be unheard of for a noble to take a fancy to a commoner, use her then discard after the conquest.  Is the girl expecting to be rescued? does she threaten the Duke with her powerful boyfriend's revenge? If she does, why doesn't the duke send out his minions to hunt down and eliminate the threat? if the boyfriend isn't powerful or well known, why doesn't the duke have a kangaroo court and convict the boyfriend of some trumped up charge then hang him nice and fair?  These are all questions of motivation and how dastardly the duke really is.  ultimately, the duke may not see commoners the same way he regards peers. they may be a commodity to be used and then discarded the same way we would use a kleenex.  There are always more commoners (especially serfs), and even freemen are subject to a dukes justice.  The weregeld (blood fine) for slaying any commoner couldn't possibly be enough to dent the duke's concience.  If the duke really is a good guy why is he going out and stealing some girl anyways?

[Ashren Va'Hale]

yeah, you missed the point. Kinda the whole missed the trees because of the forest kind of thing.

[kenjib]

Are you playing in Weyrth?  If not, how is magic viewed in your world?

In the vein of your first solution, "make magic more costly," you could make some very strong political implications that turn casting spells into a fun game of intrigue.

This has the benefit of limiting the character not in a way that irritates them, but in a way that adds to the plot and enhances the game by adding more depth and nuance.

Some ideas on how magic might be dealt with:

A)  People are superstitious and view all sorcery as the devil's work.  Not only will overt displays of magic be regarded with shock and revulsion, but they will make the caster an instant outlaw of the worst sort to be hunted down and killed.

B)  Magic may not be outlawed outright, but is still feared by the ruling class, and any magical acts performed against a noble will bring unreasonably harsh retribution.

In either of these cases, the duke (or his survivors should he die) can most likely easily make a case against the PC sorcerer for several reasons:

1)  People are probably suspicious of the PC already because he carries strange objects and perhaps someone has seen him secretly performing the devil's chant (research or pre-casting spells into objects) in his residence.  If authority is very loose, just looking like a sorcerer is likely more than half of the "proof" needed.

2)  The trial can provide incredibly unfair methodology.  Confessions can be extracted under torture, or the player can be put in a double bind - if he floats he's a witch, if he drowns...oops!

3)  A duke is a very powerful person who's word is close in power to the word of a king.  In fact, a given duke might possibly be even more powerful than his king depending on the politics at the time.  Why does the duke need evidence?  He *is* the law!

4)  A duke can just have the sorcerer assassinated through intermediaries without dirtying his own hands and never get caught.  No problem.

5)  A duke is likely attended to constantly.  Performing an act of sorcery on him without witnesses would be a true feat.

6)  A duke has people lining up left and right to lie for him.  For those who aren't lining up, that's what his immense coffers are for.

Now, if the duke doesn't know who did it, then we have a different situation, but if he knows that the players have reasonable motive to perform the actions, then really that's all a rat bastard duke needs for "proof."  He can just use the situation to bump off one of his enemies.  Whether or not it was the right one, the outcome was still good for him.

A duke has tremendous power, but it's not physical or magical.  Have him use it.  If the players want to monkey around with such a high profile person they had better keep a low profile.  At the very least, the girl herself is likely a good enough way to trace the actions back to the party once it is over with.

[Judd]

Okay, here's what I'm doing in my game.

Whenever you do a spell that trips up a 3rd level thingie...3-Volume, 3 in a vagary, whatever, it means that the Sorcerer is using truly powerful and difficult magicks.

If in the roll for Sorcery Pool any dice come up with any 1's, there is a spell complication.  You'd probably want to go through each Vagary and make a few complications for reach, keep 'em fresh.  The spell won't fail and odds are, no PC's will die directly from a complication (unless the situation is truly precarious) but they could make the PC's lives a bit more difficult.

Any help?

[Ashren Va'Hale]

I like that one paka.... I also came up with a novel solution to my problem, if one character wants to play a mage, ALL must play a mage! thus no one mage gets the swiss army knife treatment.

[Judd]

I also came up with a novel solution to my problem, if one character wants to play a mage, ALL must play a mage! thus no one mage gets the swiss army knife treatment.

Only thing I don't like about that is it limits the player's options.  Somethin' to think about.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

the price to pay to play but I see your point. Of course I currently forbid all magic in my campaigns right now and the players haven't successfully lynched me yet.

[Judd]

the price to pay to play but I see your point. Of course I currently forbid all magic in my campaigns right now and the players haven't successfully lynched me yet.

I have in the past forbidden Sorcerers in my games.  I hear ya.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

do you at times have to beat your players away with sharp sticks too when you tell them no sorcery?

[Judd]

do you at times have to beat your players away with sharp sticks too when you tell them no sorcery?

No beatings at my table....none in years.

Okay, let us banter over PM, neh?  We're taking up Forgespace.