alternate reward systems

[jeffd]

The reward system in most RPGs is premised around increasing effectiveness in terms of the system (ie, better stats).  Usually the currency is experience (or XP or whatever) that is either used to increase levels or to purchase increased stats.  Either way it's the same thing.  

Why is this the case?  

This has led to what seems to be the dominant paradigm in RPG design:  characters start of relatively ineffective and grow more effective over time.  By effectiveness I'm talking about the ability to affect the world around them through the system.  

I'm sure this topic has come up before at the Forge.  What alternative reward systems exist?  One thing I thought of was to only allow the purchasing of (to use White-Wolf parlance since it's a system I know pretty well) merits and flaws with XP.  

JD

[Jeph]

Maybe player reward, instead of character reward? Something that gives the actual guy sitting at the table sipping giner ale and crunching snaps of the same variety more control over the story, say, some form of currency that can be exchanged to insert a fact into the narrative; instead of the imaginary guy in a red cloke with a longsword and a scroll of Fireball getting increased to-hit bonus.

Of course, on the other hand, arguably, these are the same thing. What is fireball guy, really, other than gingerale guy's way of inserting facts (albeit in a more roundabout manner) into the game?

Of course, on the third hand, arguably, the difference roundaboutness is in fact quite a large difference.

Or something of that nature. :^)
--Jeff

[Alan]

Hi Jeff,

If this is your first post, welcome to the Forge!

There has been a lot of discussion about reward systems here.

About rewards, you can actually look at two different parts:  1) What behavior do you reward; and 2) What do you give the player.

What you reward can range from acting skills to adding a cool detail to the story to finding a clever solution to a puzzle to creating a thematic moment.  It all depends on what you want the players to be concentrating on.

Likewise, I've seen a range of rewards, from character effectiveness with skills and tasks to player rights to narrate outcomes to nothing at all (where actual play is the only reward).

The Riddle of Steel, Trollbabe, Sorcerer, The Questing Beast, and Theatrix all have interesting takes on what behavior to reward and what kind of reward to give.  

Also, if you search under "reward" or "reward systems" in the RPG theory or GNS threory areas, I think you'll find some old discussions. (You'll also want to read the sticky messages at the top of each message group so you know procedure for replying to old threads - it's different from other boards.)

[M. J. Young]

The reward system in most RPGs is premised around increasing effectiveness in terms of the system (ie, better stats).  Usually the currency is experience (or XP or whatever) that is either used to increase levels or to purchase increased stats.  Either way it's the same thing.

Bzzt.

Well, O.K., maybe in most of the mainline ones; but there are a lot of games in which that's not true.

Multiverser doesn't even have a reward system; play is its own reward, and players discover that very quickly, and go for what they most enjoy, instead of for what some artificial system tries to encourage.

If you'll take a look at the article http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/23/">Applied Theory in the articles section here, it addresses both rewards and advancement as distinct aspects of design within the context of how to design a game that encourages what you want to encourage.

Hope that helps.

--M. J. Young

[Michael S. Miller]

Why is this the case?  

I reckon it's because that's how D&D did it, and everybody copied it. D&D also posited the default mode of play was to play the same characters for months or years so as to advance them in level, thus much RPG design has be stuck with the assumption that play is about turning an ineffective character into a killing machine over months & years of slow, plodding gameplay.

Many of the games around here reject that paradigm outright. The reward systems of My Life with Master & Sorcerer, to name only two, focus on moment-to-moment creativity and investment in the game.

What alternative reward systems exist?  One thing I thought of was to only allow the purchasing of (to use White-Wolf parlance since it's a system I know pretty well) merits and flaws with XP.

I like that idea. I think it can foster a very TV-show-like vibe where each week we learn more of this character's history that has been there all the time, but that we've never seen before.

[Callan S.]

The reward system in most RPGs is premised around increasing effectiveness in terms of the system (ie, better stats).  Usually the currency is experience (or XP or whatever) that is either used to increase levels or to purchase increased stats.  Either way it's the same thing.  

Why is this the case?  

This has led to what seems to be the dominant paradigm in RPG design:  characters start of relatively ineffective and grow more effective over time.  By effectiveness I'm talking about the ability to affect the world around them through the system.  

I'm sure this topic has come up before at the Forge.  What alternative reward systems exist?  One thing I thought of was to only allow the purchasing of (to use White-Wolf parlance since it's a system I know pretty well) merits and flaws with XP.  

JD

I believe it's not so much about them becoming more effective...the effectiveness part is just there as practicality is seen as important.

It's really about exploring something new each time. You start out with the feeling of what its like to hold a sword. Then what it's like to wield one deftly, then what its like to cleave (or whatever).

But it's not so much the effectiveness, but rather experiencing a new extension of our well known to us PC. It's feeling something new, but with a familiar base to work from. It's also often about exploring something new that in RL we couldn't explore, either.

It's also incremental/over time and points spent, so greater things can be savoured. One savours use of a sword more when ones used a dagger for awhile.

I wouldn't turn my back on it, as exploration of new PC ability rubs off onto exploration and appreciation of game world too (ie, somthing to use that sword on...okay, bad example!). I mean, rarely do characters stay in one part of the game world, they go off and explore and see new things (or if they do stay in the same place, they explore inner, hidden qualities of local area). What's wrong with characters 'exploring' in another sense of the word, and not staying in the one spot?

[Mike Holmes]

I'd urge people to do a search and read some previous threads. This has been so discussed previously that I'm not sure that anyone can say anything new about it (other than to maybe give actual innovative suggestions about how to build reward systems).

Mike