[Dysfunctional Play] At the end of my rope...

[Grex]

Hey Scripty,

I think that Mike hits it on the head:

 maybe it's time to start fresh for you too.  see if any of your regular HQ players wants to come along with you and start a new group. if not, you can always try going to your non-gamer friends and seeing if they're interrested, use the avenues listed above, or go for indie netgaming, which is an on-line Yahoo groups "game room" where players can get together and run games of their choosing and find like-minded players.  

These guys obviously enjoy playing KotD-style, so they're not (IMO) dysfunctional. However, you and they are clearly mismatched in terms of what makes a fun game.

Judging from what you've written elsewhere about this, my take is that you've tried your best to present an alternative to adolescent powergaming, but have had only one taker. And one player does not a group (consensus) make.

So my advice to you is to cut your losses and leave the group. Lovers, friends, and even relatives grow apart, so why shouldn't roleplayers? And conversely, why should you be the buzzjoy in an otherwise, on their own berelligent terms, perfectly functional* group?

Nahh. It ain't worth the aggravation. You and your army buddy are much better off finding a new group, or better yet, recruiting newbies to the wonderful world of role-playing and storytelling. Just think: RPGamers untainted by Monty-haulism! :^)

Seriously Scripty, you've outgrown these guys. Move on, and don't look back.

Best o' luck,
Grex/Chris

* Meaning that no matter how lame their playing style seems to us, they are undeniably on the same page, style-wise.

[C. Edwards]

Hey Scott,

Here's the link to the Indie-netgaming site.

Indie-netgaming

Also, here is a blurb from the site..

Indie-netgaming is a community devoted to the organization of PBN (Play By Net) sessions of independantly designed, owned, and published role-playing games (commonly referred to as indie-rpgs or indie-games). Examples of play venue include IRC, PBEM, WebRPG, and http://www.playbyweb.com.

Feel free to check us out and post with any questions you might have.

-Chris

[Mark Johnson]

You might also include your location in your profile.  You could be living next door to a Forgie and not know it.

Worth a try, anyway.

[peteramthor]

You might also include your location in your profile.  You could be living next door to a Forgie and not know it.

Worth a try, anyway.

What he said.

Well back to lurking for me now.

[Scripty]

You might also include your location in your profile.  You could be living next door to a Forgie and not know it.

Worth a try, anyway.

What he said.

Well back to lurking for me now.

Sorry, I hadn't realized that I hadn't done that. I'm in the armpit of the South. That tarnished jewel of the Bible Belt...

Panama City, FL

Yes, I know. You've went to Spring Break here. Not to diminish anyone's experience, but I just get that a lot. Including from, oddly enough, a waiter in Paris.

Scott

[johnmarron]

Yes, I know. You've went to Spring Break here. Not to diminish anyone's experience, but I just get that a lot. Including from, oddly enough, a waiter in Paris.

Scott

Actually I did some archaeology there, and Panama City has nothing on Sneads, Bonifay, and Defuniak Springs in the armpit competition (that's not quite fair to DFS, but true of the other BFE panhandle towns).

John

[Scripty]

Actually I did some archaeology there, and Panama City has nothing on Sneads, Bonifay, and Defuniak Springs in the armpit competition (that's not quite fair to DFS, but true of the other BFE panhandle towns).

John

So true. But we do have Cedar Grove...

Scott

[MPOSullivan]

hey, my best friend's from panama city, FL.  he's not a gamer so much as he is "the guy who plays occasionally and makes up a character who is too funny for words".  but, hey, i'm sure you'll be able to find other gamers out there.

also, any updates on the situation?  have you spoken to any of the other players about what's happened yet?

laters

[Brand_Robins]

Panama City, FL

If you ever get up to Toronto, there's a space in my circle for you.

As for the rest of it, I don't know if those folks you're playing with count as "dysfunctional gamers" or not, due to the fact that they may like it (though I'd doubt its so much that they really enjoy it as that they are stuck in a cycle). I do, however, know that they sound like dysfunctional friends, if not dysfunctional human beings. Game can be what game is, but that type of abuse is the sort of thing that no one should have to be put through.

Cut them out. Don't play with them. Screw them with a shovel. Sideways.

As for the ones playing HQ, talk to them and ask them if they want to play. If they do, tell them they need to bring it to the table. If they don't, then let them go back to their hole.

To be honest, it sounds like at the point you're at it would be better for you to find non-RPers and get them to try it out, get friends into the game, rather than looking for people who already game. It can be a lot of work, and frustrating in its own way, but I've had good experiences with it and can guarantee that the difficulty of getting a friend to try something is far less annoying than the pain of dealing with idiots who happen to share a hobby with you.

[Scripty]

also, any updates on the situation?  have you spoken to any of the other players about what's happened yet?

I've been trying to talk to the player I refer to as "the quiet guy." I want to talk to him first. He is the one who is most interested in HeroQuest. I'd like to get his take on it. I'm not going to be playing in the D&D group this week. I have other things to do and don't relish spending another hour or more making a character who is just going to get dogged or will have to take a backseat while the alphas in the group steer us through the plot. The DM in that group may or may not show up for the HeroQuest game. I can't see why he would though, as much as he complained about it.

Beyond that, I see myself as having a number of options. First, can the D&D night. I can buy that it's functional play for these guys (although I agree with Brand that it's more of a "cycle" as it seems to repeat itself over and over despite the genre), but it's certainly not functional play for me. I'm not sure how they see it. But it looks like a broken record to me. I could honestly write down on a piece of paper exactly what player will do what and when (such as the ghoul who desecrated the temple trying to pickpocket my holy symbol after I tried to pull him away from eating the temple's relic). I felt like it would be nice to introduce these guys to HeroQuest, but they just don't seem interested.

Second, I can also can the HeroQuest night. Right now it's at three players with a fourth who seems to like to lurk and bash HeroQuest off and on. The DM (from the night before) and his pal (the lurker) most likely will either lose interest or quit altogether. This will leave only two players. I'm totally cool with that, but the girl in the group is a social RPGer. She's not a gamer per se, but comes to the sessions to socialize and be friendly. That's cool too, but with the other two players gone I'm not sure how that will affect her impression of the games. She's already called out once (at the last minute) which is generally a sign of her interest waning. So, realistically, that only leaves one player. Again, I'm totally cool with one-on-one sessions. My roommate in college and I did a really great couple of sessions of Batman that way. But, most likely, the quiet guy will opt out. So, if I want to preserve the group, (so to speak) it's obvious that I need to do *something* but I'm just not sure what.

Third, I can can them both and go to online gaming. I have a crappy internet connection at home with phonelines that dateback to Sanford & Son but this option is appealing to me more and more. I like to try out new things. Initially, that's what the HeroQuest night was intended for. Now, though, I'm seeing a drift towards it becoming just another "D&D" night. Netgaming could be a great opportunity for me to hopscotch into the next century. There also seem to be more like-minded individuals on the 'net than there are around here.

Fourth, my HeroQuest game was formerly at the FLGS. The owner of the FLGS is a really great guy and I have a standing invitation to their weekly D&D game as well. They play old school, but old school like I remember it. Dungeon-crawling, monster killing, treasure grabbing goodness. Not all this backstabbing, money-grabbing, ego-scabbing stuff. That's an option too. If I'm going to play D&D, I'd rather have fun doing it than just sit around and be a pin cushion for everyone else's self-esteem. The FLGS owner has also given me carte blanche to run any demos I want. This is a tempting offer, especially in light of his concerns over passing the hobby on to the next generation. I've been to Friday nights (what I call "kids' nights" at his store). It's odd. The kids, all ranging in age from 9-14 with a few scary individuals who are obviously in their mid-30s, just sit around and talk smack about their characters. Then, when enough smack is talked, they roll up a combat. It's like RIFTS meets Mortal Kombat. Or pro-wrestling. Anyhoo, a demo could be a good thing. But then I'm stuck a bit too because I'm not into Glorantha all that much. I'm slowly reading the "Introduction to Glorantha" book, but my favorite thing about the whole setting thus far are the ducks and, maybe, the Lunars. My heart isn't full of Heortling love. I guess I need a demo, too.

If you ever get up to Toronto, there's a space in my circle for you.

Thanks. If I do get up to Toronto, I will definitely look you up.

As for the rest of it, I don't know if those folks you're playing with count as "dysfunctional gamers" or not, due to the fact that they may like it (though I'd doubt its so much that they really enjoy it as that they are stuck in a cycle).

I think it's more of a cycle. I think my gauging it as functional or dysfunctional cycle is more a matter of personal opinion on my part, although many of these guys have been playing RPGs together for 8 years or more and still have no real "bonds" of friendship to speak of. My personal speculation that their style of play doesn't encourage much interaction outside of the context of gaming. But I could be talking out of my backside, too. I was spoiled by my last group. Not only did we game (either board or rpg) 1-2 nights a week but we also went to movies together and generally just hung out more often.

As for the ones playing HQ, talk to them and ask them if they want to play. If they do, tell them they need to bring it to the table. If they don't, then let them go back to their hole.

I will. I've already had a brief conversation with them a few weeks back. Essentially, I was having to pick up for a lot of slack in the player department: turtling behavior, characters with no backgrounds/interests/goals/attachments, too much reliance on the GM to fill in ALL the details on their behalf, etc. etc. The mini-campaign was going okay, but it was like I was having to hold their hand the whole time. Silly stuff, like:
PC: "Can I go down that corridor?"
Me: "Sure"
PC: "Okay, I go. Does something happen?"
Me: (taking the cue as the player "wanting" something to happen here) "You hear a door down the hallway creak open."
PC: "I have my gun! I didn't leave my gun!"
Me: (shaking my head in amazement that PC would think I'm trying to screw her/him over THAT hard; or screw him/her over at all) "Of course not. I know you have your gun."
PC: "I crouch in the hallway. What happens?"
Me: "A flourescent light flickers on and off in the room and then settles into total darkness. You think you hear something moving in there."
PC: "I run!"
Me: "Where? Down the hallway? Into the room?"
PC: "Hell, no! I run back the way I came! I'm getting out of there!"
Me: (flabbergasted and a little frustrated) "Okay. You make it out of the building. What now?"
PC: "You tell me..."

My frustration was amplified too, because the players had CHOSEN the setting ("Cyberpunk") and even morphed it to such a degree that it took on a new twist ("Cthulhupunk"), which led me to buy the GURPS book and read it in record time. A week later, the mini-campaign came to a head and reached a forgivable conclusion. Rather than have it sputter on, I decided to run something of my choice because the whole player-input thing really wasn't working out with this group.

Maybe I'm a wierdo or something. But I find it really hard to run a game without some sort of give and take from the players. To revisit Ron's use of a band analogy, I see my role as the Narrator as similar to that of a bass player or, at times, a drummer. I set the groove and pace and try to keep it going by building/releasing tension, introducing the bridge or the chorus, laying low for the solo or dropping out altogether when necessary. Once in a while I add a nuance or two, but I try to leave the spotlight on the players and their characters. This collides, however, with my group of players who are actively avoiding any spotlight time. It's like they almost want to show up to watch a performance, like I'm Mark Twain or something...

To be honest, it sounds like at the point you're at it would be better for you to find non-RPers and get them to try it out, get friends into the game, rather than looking for people who already game. It can be a lot of work, and frustrating in its own way, but I've had good experiences with it and can guarantee that the difficulty of getting a friend to try something is far less annoying than the pain of dealing with idiots who happen to share a hobby with you.

I wish I could. I've been trying and, every once in a while, a non-RPer shows a little interest. I think it's the time commitment that's the real turn-off for most of my other friends, though. I look at it as time that we all get together and hang out and do something other than watch TV or movies. It's a reason to be social. And it's fun and imaginative to boot. Most of my non-RPer friends look at it as an obligation to show up somewhere once a week and they would rather stick to our normal social schedule (which is not much to speak of). Another problem is that the few nonRPers that I have been able to bring in have wound up playing once or, even, twice with many of the same guys from the D&D night. That sort of screws things up. For instance, my wife played in a Buffy game with the group once. One of the players called her a very bad word because she grabbed a sword that he dropped and started hacking away at vampires. He perceived it as stealing his stuff. She perceived it as the least wounded "Slayer" picking up and helping out. It was also totally in character for her. She was playing "Faith" after all. The other player was near dead from fighting off vamps, but took it personally. The game was set in the Buffyverse assuming that Season 5 stuck. Once Buffy kicked it, another Slayer took over. That was the Slayer that the PC was playing. My wife came in as Faith because, well, she wanted to play a character she knew. Normally, I wouldn't do this but only one player in the group ever watched Buffy. So, to them, she was just another Slayer. Anyway, the moral of the story is: "If you call my wife a B#%@& at the gaming table, it's not going to help your case." Needless to say, my wife has written off RPGs entirely. I don't blame her. The guy was way out of line. I don't game with him anymore.

Similar stories exist for every other friend I've tried to introduce to the hobby via this group or sub-groups thereof.

A final option is to fall back on the familiar. I had a similarly rough time trying to get the various members of these groups to play Feng Shui. It wasn't until I ran Star Wars-Feng Shui that they really gained an interest in it. Following that 6-9 week campaign, Feng Shui was on their menu of games to play. 2 of the players bought the corebook. Now they've all but forgotten that I introduced them to the game. Same with Mutants & Masterminds, although it wasn't familiarity that had them try that game out. We just had a week where nobody showed up. So me and a few other players ran a fairly coherent and functional M&M game with minimal backstabbing. It was fun and now so many of them have bought the book that it has its own section at the FLGS. I like to try new things. But I only expose the really good new things to others. Of course, that's a pretty subjective statement.

So, if I ran a HeroQuest-StarWars game, there's a good chance that many of the players would show. But I question now if that's even something I want. Previously, I thought doing a HeroQuest Freedom City game would do it, but I was wrong. If I ran HeroQuest-Marvel, however, I would not only grab the attention of the other players but also highlight how similarly the two systems feel in play, despite the complaints of the DM and his lurker buddy. IMO, HeroQuest really is the TSR Classic Marvel of this decade. Ironically, I sold my copy of TSR Classic Marvel about 15 years ago because I couldn't get anyone to play it. Thanks in no small part to similar D&Ders who pooed all over it. Now it's the "game du jour" in this area, much like I anticipate HeroQuest will be a classic RPG another 10 years from now. Most likely many of these same naysayers will either be playing or running it on a regular basis. I'm laughing on the inside. Really.

At least I have enough sense now not to sell a game out of frustration.

Scott

[Brand_Robins]

I've been trying and, every once in a while, a non-RPer shows a little interest. I think it's the time commitment that's the real turn-off for most of my other friends, though.

This is a big issue, and one that I had for a long time too. There may be a way around it, if you can convince them that you're going to be playing "quick" game that last only a couple hours and are played once a month. One of the big blocks between "RPers" and "norms" is that they aren't quite into the idea of playing any game that lasts 6 hours, much less 6 hours every Friday. Many, however, will give a game a try if they know it's gonna be 2 and a half hours for two or maybe three Fridays over the course of two months or so. Getting them in, getting them into conflict, and letting the story come to an end are all great things -- but sometimes hard things for people who've been playing under the typical paradigm of "the longer we play the better."

Of course, I'm giving this as general advice rather than specifically to you, Scripty. You sound like you've tried pretty hard, and it may not be possible for you to turn them. However, there is one more point to be made....

Another problem is that the few nonRPers that I have been able to bring in have wound up playing once or, even, twice with many of the same guys from the D&D night. That sort of screws things up. For instance, my wife played in a Buffy game with the group once. One of the players called her a very bad word because she grabbed a sword that he dropped and started hacking away at vampires.... "If you call my wife a B#%@& at the gaming table, it's not going to help your case." Needless to say, my wife has written off RPGs entirely. I don't blame her. The guy was way out of line. I don't game with him anymore.

Similar stories exist for every other friend I've tried to introduce to the hobby via this group or sub-groups thereof.

I just... yea. Okay.

See, I think this may be a bigger part of the problem than anything else. That guy was out of line, and you're totally right not to play with him anymore. However, the kind of play and group dynamic that would lead to him having the remotest thought that anything like that could ever result in anything less than being beaten black and blue is the kind of dynamic that is going to make it impossible to get normal people to play with that group.

If you ever try gaming with normals again, do it with a group of all normals. Don't bring in any experienced RPers -- especially not anyone who has ever come near the taint of your current group -- and see what happens in a short 2-3 hour game with just them and you. If you can get it to work, I'm sure you'll find that having "experienced" gamers at the table not only isn't necessary, it often hurts more than it helps.

Anyway, if everything else fails Indy Netgaming sounds interesting. Heck, I've been thinking of popping in myself, but I always chicken out. Maybe we could go in together, take the world by storm? ;)

[C. Edwards]

I second every bit of Brand's post. Also, Indie-netgaming isn't the horde of flesh eating walking dead that you may have heard about. We only eat your brain. :)  Seriously though, it's a relaxed atmosphere with people that like to play games, particularly indie games. So, no need for anxiety.

-Chris

P.S. Almost all of my rpg purchases over the last year and a half have been due to actual play in the Indie-netgaming irc channels.

[Andrew Martin]

For instance, my wife played in a Buffy game with the group once.
...
She perceived it as the least wounded "Slayer" picking up and helping out. It was also totally in character for her. She was playing "Faith" after all.
...
My wife came in as Faith because, well, she wanted to play a character she knew.
...
Needless to say, my wife has written off RPGs entirely.

I think you should roleplay with your wife and her friends. :) She sounds like a really good player.

[Scripty]

Well, I was waiting for a final decision before I talked to "quiet guy." I'm definitely not going back to the D&D game. I'm just not interested in a 1 or so hours of character creation and then waiting 30-45 minutes to be intro'd to the party only to have anything of relevance pickpocketed in the first 30 minutes or to have my character flat out killed by the end of the evening. Everyone here seems to be with me on this matter.

But my weekly HeroQuest game is shot now too. Right in the head with a big silver bullet. I got to talk with "quiet guy" (name withheld to protect the innocent) tonight. He's not interested in HeroQuest anymore either. Ironic, in that I just bought him the corebook. He had asked me to get him a copy of the Hero's Book but, hey, it was Christmas! Hopefully his appreciation of what I feel is hands-down, the best RPG of last year will change somewhat after he has the book.

He did illuminate a bit of what the other players had apparently been discussing when I wasn't around... Please give me some leeway. I'm trying to give a fair representation of what was said and some of it is contradictory.

1) HeroQuest was too freeform. Skills were wishy-washy and there were no specifics. They wanted a skill list (outside of homeland and occupation listings). I guess what they're looking for is a "master skill list" like in RIFTS. Here the group and I disagree. I think HQ straddles the fence quite well between being completely malleable and open to improvisation/imagination, while still codifying things quite nicely.

2) HeroQuest didn't let you do what you wanted. This is the essence of the other major complaint. On one hand, you couldn't be a jack-of-all-trades in HeroQuest and still pack the punch of someone who had specialized all their energy into one specific field. On the other hand, if you concentrated all of your Hero Points into one focused area, you would have blind spots as there would be a number of things at which you would not be as skilled. I'll try not to be to grumpy here. But this part of the complaint seemed to break down into two primary gripes: HeroQuest doesn't allow you to have your cake and eat it too and HeroQuest doesn't support number-stacking.

Personally, I think this complaint was entirely bogus. These are players who never took a follower or a sidekick and who rarely interacted with the setting/environment at all. The couple of games in which they did come out of their shell and play we had a great time. But then they turtled up again.

3) Adversaries were too tough to beat in HeroQuest. Now, this complaint is quite possibly my fault mixed with a bit of theirs. This last campaign they wanted Cthulhupunk. They wanted horror-Cyberpunk. That's what I gave. Their primary concern here was that they couldn't punch out a Shoggoth. Okay... well, not many people can. The root of most of these complaints was playing a zombie PC in that game. How he kept his free-will I left up for him to decide. It's what he wanted, so I was cool with it. I felt a really good adversary for him would be a trio of Necromancers loosely based on the Karotechia from Delta Green. Physically, they were no match for the zombie. He could've killed them without a moment's thought. But, when working their mojo, his Undead ability worked against him. They *were* necromancers, after all. Now he could've resisted with anything: Willpower, Ravenous, Determined, etc. etc. Most people familiar with HeroQuest could probably denote a number of ways the big bad Nazis necromancers could've been taken out. But did he? No. He turtled and said he had nothing to resist, which defaulted him to 14. Now why was this? Because in character creation he hadn't taken any personality traits to speak of. He had, maybe, two of them. He refused relationships. Everything. All he wanted was "Undead" and I let him boost that to 20w3. I warned him of the pitfalls of such an approach, but he ignored me. When faced with adversaries/obstacles that outmatched him, I advised he use the Extended Contest. This is truly the one way to "game" the HeroQuest system. Did he? No. He wanted everything resolved with a Simple Contest. Of course, he's going to have trouble with more skilled adversaries. Especially ones with more than one dimension.

So the ONE time he came across a Karotechia in the entire four games where he didn't run away and hide they took control of him and had him...

guard a door while they escaped.

Somehow, I was underwhelmed by his complaint.

There were other complaints along these lines but it primarily centered around being helpless in the face of cosmic horror. Well, they weren't helpless. Not at all. They single-handedly destroyed New Orleans AND stopped Octopus Umbrella from completing an important hostile takeover of another corporation. They stole an artifact from a Satanic corporation, unleashed a zombie plague and took down an Octopus Umbrella airship.

Sure, one of them went insane and turned into a Shoggoth and another died at the hands of the Zombie PC, after having the De Vermis Mysteriis uploaded to his cortex. But this IS Cthulhupunk.

With that taken into account, they rocked the house. But still there's the whining and moaning and, of course, they've heaped it all on to the HeroQuest system, which is unfortunate. They're closing a door. Oh well, I'm not intending to follow.

But, being as how a couple of the players are really nice people whom I consider friends, I was willing to work with them. I offered to run Freedom City/HeroQuest. We're talking Justice League-style supers. I thought showing them the other end of the spectrum might be nice. They turned it down because it was going to be in the HeroQuest system. Reference what I said about closing doors...

Then there was Atomic Horror. I was willing to run a pulpy Atomic Horror campaign using (gasp!) the Call of Cthulhu d20 system. I was going to retool the Insanity results a bit so that people went crazy like Christopher Lloyd in Back to the Future instead of Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs. Light, B-Movie, Pulp fun with just a dash of camp (Giant Robots... Alien Invasions... Flying Saucers... Rayguns...). Nope, came the reply. We're tired of Cthulhu.

Well, I always have Midnight-HeroQuest. Ready to go. Has been for months. But, oh yeah, that's in HeroQuest. And, oh yeah, it's Midnight. They're not interested in that setting because there's "nothing to do(?)."

So my last offer was the best received. A Wierd War II Call of Cthulhu d20 campaign which mixed elements of Saving Private Ryan with H.P. Lovecraft. This was a go?! Odd. I told them that I thought they were "tired of Cthulhu." This was THE most Cthulhoid campaign I had ever put together. I was at a loss.

So I decided to call it quits. Rather than muddle through yet another lukewarm group. Rather than spend hours on things like relationship maps, kickers and filling in details that they were too lazy to figure out for themselves. Rather than bending over backwards to try and try and try to squeeze some excitement out of them. I decided my energies would be better spent elsewhere.

Brand, if you want to do indie-netgaming, I'm there. My internet connection really bites. But I'll definitely show. I'd love to actually play in a HeroQuest campaign, if just to find out exactly what the reason for Glorantha Fever is. Personally, I'd just love to play again with people who really want to play. To have fun. Remember when we used to do that?

I'll continue to work on my own things. I have some interesting ideas on the magic end of the HeroQuest system swimming in the soup of my head. I'll also try to run some demos up at the FLGS. I would hate to let an open invite go to waste.

But I'm not going to work my tail off for people who really just don't give a flying flip. It's just not worth it. They would be better served playing D&D 1st ed. I would be better served by reading in the bath.

Thanks for all the support. It's really nice to know that I'm not completely insane in wanting more out of this hobby than just getting slapped around 2 nights a week.

Scott

[Bob McNamee]

By the way Mike Holmes is about to get an HQ game going on Indie netgaming (link in my sig)...at the Magicstar IRC...soon.

He may be still open to players...and we always welcome lurkers.