Shapechanging in Donjon

[dunlaing]

I have a player that wants the Supporting Ability "Shapechange Self." He wants it to work in such a way that if he rolls it and gets successes, he can add abilities to himself. So if he shapechanges into a dragon and gets 5 successes, he could give himself 3 dice of Resist Damage and 2 dice of Fire Breathing, for example.

A) I told him that Shapechange Self sounds like a Main Ability to me and that as a Supporting Ability, you should only be able to turn into one type of thing (Shapechange into Humanoids, Shapechange into Birds, etc)

B) Getting free abilities sounds way out of scope to me for a Supporting Ability. Am I right? Or should that be allowed?

(His character concept is that his natural form is a ball of energy that can perform a magical ritual to take on a physical form)

[Valamir]

I would probably treat it along the lines of magic, with the "magic words" being the specific bonuses he can get.

So to "Resist Damage" and "Breath Fire" he'd need to have those capabilities listed as magic words.  These would be less versatile than real magic words, but also not require gathering power first...so it seems a reasonable trade off.  

For a supporting ability I'd definitely restrict it to one form only and have all of the (fewer) magic words be related to that form.  For a main ability you could allow a broader range of forms, but the actual bonuses/free abilities still are limited by the selection of magic words.

[dunlaing]

He already has a Spellcasting ability as his Main Ability. I don't think it's a good idea to let a player have multiple spellcasting abilities.

[Valamir]

Its not a spell casting ability.  Just structured like one.  The "Magic Words" don't do anything exept serve to limit the bonuses he can try to give himself.

[dunlaing]

I don't know how much I like this idea since I don't have a solid feeling of how it would work. It also just seems a little much to be able to add abilities at any point just by rolling one of your Supporting Abilities.

I mean, If one of your words is "Breathe Fire" and you can get a Breathe Fire ability by using your ability, why should anyone ever take Breathe Fire when they can take this?

[Mike Holmes]

Because spellcasting is limited? Basically spellcasting is broader than other abilities (4 in 1 or so), but has other problems to overcome. So, you say it's non-magical, but run it as magical anyhow.

Do I have that right?

Mike

[Valamir]

I don't know how much I like this idea since I don't have a solid feeling of how it would work. It also just seems a little much to be able to add abilities at any point just by rolling one of your Supporting Abilities.

Mechanically?  It would work exactly as you described it above.

I have a player that wants the Supporting Ability "Shapechange Self." He wants it to work in such a way that if he rolls it and gets successes, he can add abilities to himself. So if he shapechanges into a dragon and gets 5 successes, he could give himself 3 dice of Resist Damage and 2 dice of Fire Breathing, for example.

Just that the magic words would limit what he could give himself.  He couldn't give himself 3 dice of Resist Damage and 2 dice of Fire Breathing unless he had those options written down.

I mean, If one of your words is "Breathe Fire" and you can get a Breathe Fire ability by using your ability, why should anyone ever take Breathe Fire when they can take this?

Why would anyone take "Fight with swords" when they could just take "Weapon Magic" Keywords : Fight, Swords?

If your worried about balance I point out:
1) using an action to change with the possibility of failure and not getting anything.
2) Player narrates success, GM narrates the rest.  So he shapeshifts to get the dragon's breath fire ability?  Fine...he spends his successes.  And then you point out that he's grown in stature and broken all of the straps on his armor so it falls off.  Or he no longer fits down the narrow corridor.  Or his hands become claws that no longer can grip his sword. Or he gets really cold because firebreathing dragons like the heat.  Or theres a female dragon in heat nearby...or whatever else you need to do to keep things in perspective...same as you do for anything in Donjon.

Donjon is all about giving players enough rope so they can joyfully hang themselves.  I'm not really seeing the problem.

[dunlaing]

[quote="Valamir]

I mean, If one of your words is "Breathe Fire" and you can get a Breathe Fire ability by using your ability, why should anyone ever take Breathe Fire when they can take this?

Why would anyone take "Fight with swords" when they could just take "Weapon Magic" Keywords : Fight, Swords?[/quote]

Because:
1) You can only have one spellcasting ability and you have 4 other abilities
2) magic requires two actions

The way you've got the shapechange set up (and the way my player wants it to work), the shapechange is definitively better than any ability it could provide.

If your worried about balance I point out:
1) using an action to change with the possibility of failure and not getting anything.

So you're saying that the possibility of failure on the shapechange balances being able to have multiple abilities?

2) Player narrates success, GM narrates the rest.  So he shapeshifts to get the dragon's breath fire ability?  Fine...he spends his successes.  And then you point out that he's grown in stature and broken all of the straps on his armor so it falls off.  Or he no longer fits down the narrow corridor.  Or his hands become claws that no longer can grip his sword. Or he gets really cold because firebreathing dragons like the heat.  Or theres a female dragon in heat nearby...or whatever else you need to do to keep things in perspective...same as you do for anything in Donjon.

I think that that way lies a disgruntled player. At the very least he should know ahead of time that I'm always going to screw him whenever he tries to use his power. I mean, he did succeed in the above example you're giving.

Donjon is all about giving players enough rope so they can joyfully hang themselves.

I'm not feeling very eloquent today, but I'm sure that there is something else Donjon is about that I'm responding to more than that part. At least, in the case of this sort of thing.

I'm not really seeing the problem.

Ok. That's fair. I do see a problem. Anyone else (particularly Clinton if possible) see my problem and want to help me with it?

[Valamir]

The way you've got the shapechange set up (and the way my player wants it to work), the shapechange is definitively better than any ability it could provide.

We must not be communicating because this is just wrong.

You buy the ability, you get it at X to use it takes 1 action.

You buy the same thing in shapeshifting, you get less then X because you have to make a roll to shapeshift, whose difficulty is set by the GM.  Meaning you get the flexibility of a number of different abilities in a single slot with the price that none of them are going to be as effective as buying the ability directly.  Plus it takes 2 actions...1 to do the shapeshift to acquire the ability and then the 1 to use it.  Seems perfectly well balanced to me (at least well enough to try and test it in actual play).

In fact, if anything, I think it probably short changes the player because he has to rely on you not making the difficulty so high it never works at all.  

So you're saying that the possibility of failure on the shapechange balances being able to have multiple abilities?

Which is better, 1 ability at +5, or 3 abilities that may range from +1 to +3 (or thereabouts) and sometimes 0...?

Depends on the situation...which seems the definition of balanced in my book.

I think that that way lies a disgruntled player.

Hmmm.  You're worried about disgruntled players...in a Donjon game?  The game where players can roll to magically discover a treasure horde full of gold, and then another player then gleefully has it guarded by a very powerful angry dragon...and then everyone enjoys trying to not get fried...?  Are we talking about the same game here?

At the very least he should know ahead of time that I'm always going to screw him whenever he tries to use his power

.

I can't for the life of me even concieve of why you would do that.  That's what you do if the player starts to think he's super dude and can do anything...just as a gentle reminder and some comic relief.  The rest of the time...let him do what he wants.  Its no worse than most of the rest of the crazy abilities players come up with for themselves in Donjon.  

Ok. That's fair. I do see a problem.

Please share what you see the problem as.  The only thing I can gather is that you're worried that a player is trying to abuse the system.

And if that's your worry...you should purge such thoughts from your thinking now.  Its not possible for a player to abuse Donjon's system.  Donjon is not a system where the GM should fear the player.  Its a system where everyone should enjoy the outrageous antics that are possible and encouraged by it.

[Catalyst]

My thoughts on shapechanging in Donjon: Build some "shapes" the character can change into using the regular rules as if they were characters. If the shapechanging ability's limited, give 'em one shape, if not, give 'em three or four. Whatever numbers you're comfy with. I think building them like characters based on the character level would work out, but I'm not sure, it might "feel" better building them as monsters. When the character advances in level .. umm .. Probably just level up the shapes like characters rather than like monsters. Dunno on that, I'd have to think about it.

If you want to limit things further, give a limit of one shape change and return to "normal" per <time period> with a maximum time of staying in a given shape per <shorter time period>, or say that returning to normal shape isn't voluntary, it only happens when <time period> is up.

Some other complications I can think of that might be interesting to detail before or during the game: Where did the character's money and equipment go for the change? And clothes? Do clothes "come back" after returning to "normal" form? Can the "shape" talk? Can they cast spells while shapechanged?

Hope those ideas spark some more ideas.

[jdagna]

Why not treat a shape-shift like a summoned creature?  The only difference being that, instead of helping you, the summoned creature is you.   Thus, you give up all of your current stats and abilities in exchange for what you become.  The book (if I recall correctly) has good rules about magically summoning creatures like demons and elementals.

Here are some threads with additional ideas about how to determine power for found or summoned creatures

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8324
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5818

By the way, I see nothing at all wrong with allowing multiple magical abilities.  It'll hurt your magic-using ability in the end even if it benefits you at a low level.  Why?  First, you have to spend ability points on both of the spell-casting abilities.  Second, you should keep the magic words from each ability separate (the book does not specifically say this, but I think it is the only logical way to approach the fact that you have to improve the ability rating for each ability separately and the fact that at least one of  your magical abilities must be a limited supporting ability).  Third, you gain new magic words by gaining levels, and taking new words means you're not taking extra abilities, so there's no long-term benefit.

Anyway, I definitely agree that shapeshifting as a supporting ability should be limited.  In fact, I would limit it to a specific alternate species (I think "humanoids" is still too broad, but that's my opinion).

[Christopher Weeks]

Is it considred as crass to post to old threads in the specific game fora?

What if the player chose polymorphism as an ability and the number of successes allowed this shifting of dice from one stat to another or one ability to another (even new ones)?  It seems like a simple and elegant way of providing all kinds of flexibility without power imbalance.  It's probably slow to change yourself entirely into a dragon, but you could.

I just finished reading Donjon yesterday morning, and I haven't played yet, but this seems workable.

Chris