Bad uses of Spiritual Attribuites

[Judd]

One can also think of SA's as adrenaline. How pumped up does my character get in certain situations? What sets him off like that?

SA's, for me, aren't useful for what get's the character excited.  I could care less about the character being excited.  The people I have to get excited, caring and emotionally involved with the game are the real ones sitting at the table with me.

When SA's are what get's the real people, the players, excited about the character, that is when they work best in my experience.

I think gamers, as a general rule with myself and those at my table very much included, need to stop thinking about protecting their characters and start thinking about protecting the shared experience of the game.  If I had to take only one lesson from the Forge, that'd probably be it (for now).

[ZazielsRephaim]

Not in any way ment to trivialize such a story.. but just to continue your use of such an anecdote to mirror a discription of game mechanic usage.....

Once could easily say (SA wise) the lifting of the car was a "Passion - protect immediate family from danger"   or a love for his father?   Such a view is more fitting to the use of SA's.  After all... they are SPIRITUAL attributes.... not...  Adrenalin points... not.. Biological Attributes...  

This is more of a metaphysical thing than just secretions of chemicals from specific glands in the body....   Go deeper...  ask why...   WHY did he have the adrenaline?   because his father was in danger... and he hada lover for and a passionate desire to protect/save his father.

Also I agree with what most everyone has been saying about the use of SA's...

Anywho, it is late, I require sleep.
-Luke

[ZazielsRephaim]

I think gamers, as a general rule with myself and those at my table very much included, need to stop thinking about protecting their characters and start thinking about protecting the shared experience of the game.  If I had to take only one lesson from the Forge, that'd probably be it (for now).

Agreed...  whole heartedly agreed.

[Ingenious]

I though, was speaking more in terms of what gets the character excited. An SA for my character might give off adrenaline, a euphoric feeling etc.. and whenever my character goes through these experiences.. I feel as a player that I too am going through them. That gets me that much more involved with the emotion, caring, etc that you mentioned. If one of my character's had an SA of 'Protect my Lord' as a passion, and it came down to the point where he had to.. and the adrenaline was flowing and he was ready to give his life in the name of that Lord.. I see that as a person.. sympathise with those feelings and emotions, and feel what my character feels.

I'm not being too over-statistical/analytical in my thoughts on SA's I hope.

-Ingenious

[Ingenious]

Yes Luke, I agree that while adrenaline is not completely comparable to SA's it does resemble their effects.
Essentially, the kid's SA of Protecting his father kicked in.. and he got adrenaline from it(bonus dice) in his attempt to lift the car. That's all I said really... it seems pretty damned clear and logical to me.
Regardless of WHY he had the SA, that's easy to say(he loved his father deeply I'd imagine).. I'm more concerned with what my character is feeling/thinking when his SA's are firing rather than WHY they are, or WHY they are important to him. WHY is the easy answer... the thing I question is what happens during/after SA's are being fired. Setting motives and reasons behind the SA's and the situations that they will be used in is simple.

One might also argue that getting a rush while say... stealing a car..  is a result of chemicals.. and such.. what makes them repeat the event? They might possibly LIKE the rush. Which might be 'motive' enough... to have an SA for stealing.. though not in an 'every sitation' way...  They would be stealing for thr feelings they got while doing it.. they are impuslive.. they may not need or even USE whatever they might steal.. but their love for the act should be noted.

The same thing can be said of serial killers. They 'LIKE' to kill, so we can take that and say it is a passion of sorts. And since these types of people are also impulsive, you could treat it kind of like an addiction... they wouldnt be addicted to killing, they'd be addicted to those feelings that they got when killing things.. and therefore you have a motive to kill... and kill repeatedly... in order to get or maintain that euphoic feeling. And therefore, a reason WHY to have that SA.

Like my character, he likes to kill nobles. He might have already killed the one that killed his father right? But he goes on to kill more, why? Because he likes the feelings of redemption, vengeance, etc that he gets from killing the same sort of people that killed his father. Therefore, everytime he sees a noble.. he thinks of his father, and of the release that he gets from killing them... and has a motive to kill them.. to ease his mind, to further redeem himself(in his mind).. etc.

I guess I too, have been guilty of having come up with some bad SA's or tried to have some 'bad' ones.. and am now craw-fishing from this topic.
The reason though behind me doing it is(having generalized SA's) because I want the characters to advance more rapidly.. our now shortened once per month session is going to be that it might take awhile for my character to get up to an average level of skill in combat.
-Ingenious
Either that.. or I am not seeing the trees through the forest, or vice versa.

[sirogit]

I should probably note that I am playing a wicked, mercenary/assassin as well in half Baked's game.

I don't think that what SAs are physically in-game is all that important. You could look at them as representative of adrenaline, determination, symbolic of offscreen time that you have persued towards this end which causes your goals to come to you more easily in this present, you could look at it as the consensual backing off of everyone involved that struggles to stop a man so commited that they let themselves die. Or just a plain metagame rule that says to throw a bone to a guy for everytime he sticks up for something. Whatever. It's the Riddle.

What is important is what SAs mean to the -players-. If they don't have any meaning than the game loses it's strongest edge.

So anyway, now, the Vengeance SA makes sense to me. Vengence isn't supposed to be a flaw in most lights. I see lots of dramatic expressions of vengence as a power to someone, I'm guessing it's more about venting on people available than seeking out the sources of it, but it's still very good vengence material.

Now, the thing that I really don't get is Flaws as Spiritual Attribuites. They're called Flaws for a reason. Having an obsession is a flaw. There's something wrong that in the game, you can look at it as if your obsession with stuff is very important to you, that losing your obsession with stuff would be a tragedy. That your character is a lesser man for not wanting to stockpile loot. the reaction I see of the character losing his greed somehow would be "Damn, what am I going to dow ithout greed?". Not because of some profane observation on the basis of desire, but because it makes him hits things harder.

Having a cause or a drive is supposed to be worthwhile. I can't imagine a good story that's about characters completely devoid of any sort of drive. A drive can mix easily with an obsession, such as in Vengence, but the idea of it's drive that you've sticked to that is giving the person power, not it's function as an unhealthy fixiation.

But, the big question I have for you is, are you deeply intereasted in the character facet of wanting to stockpile gold? Is what you want to communicate to your GM "I want a guy that triumphantly takes money. That's the sort of plot that's thrilling to me." What sort of payoff are you expecting from it?

Now, I can think of several D&D characters that were played like that. That reveled in piles of monster-dropped gold. Groups that recalled cool lines about how their characters because those characters were so into hoarding stuff. My understanding of that was, it makes sense in the system. In traditionial D&D dungeon-crawling games, everyone is pushed towards situations where they are allowed to try and get stuff, and having stuff is important to other conflicts. Greed is rewarded heavily because having a +4 sword is alot better than having a +2 sword, in D&D, having good stuff is a very important factor in combat which is a major focus of heroism in the game, so it just comes natural that this value system rubs off on the characters and the players appreciate them for those values.

But does that really turn you on, as a roleplaying focus? Because if it does, I'll recognize we have wildly differing tastes on the issue and I couldn't really say much more than I hope it works well in the game, you get your kicks and you're able to brew, like what Ron Edwards said in Sorcery&Sword "A fanboy-level appreciation" in the other players.

But do you see a payoff in-game somewhere with the whole elevation-of-flaws thing that I really don't seem to be mentioning? Because if i'd see it as something that'd be perfectly functional to the type of gaming I want to do with Tros, I'd say I have to seriously reconsider my veiws on the issue.

P.S. From your last paragraph I think that you might be intereasted in the SA's for gamist reasons only and it makes you willing to sacrifice Nar and Sim to a heavy extent. If you and your GM see eye to eye on that than my criticisms are misplaced.

[ZazielsRephaim]

Sirogit,

hey, I am the GM in question... and I hold views much more similar to yours, and have been raising the same questions  (or attempting to) almost all week off forum.  Also I am much more into Narrativism than Gamism.  But i guess when you're just starting TROS out... with a group that has mostly played only AD&D 1st edition for the last who knows how many years... (myself included)  some of us have habits from the old system.  Myself included.  But the group as a whole has taken to the TROS system very quickly.  (one session converts)  I also have troubles coming up with SA's from time to time.  However, concerning my player's SA's, I personally have felt that the player should come up with them so they can make the character mean all that more to them.  I just try to nudge their SA's in the direction the plot goes, so they dont end up standing around thinking... "why am I here?"    So I am wondering more about once i come to an understanding of their character concepts... just basically giving them one or two SA's...

[Bob Richter]

The next step is to form the plot around the PC's SAs.

Keeps you on your toes as Seneschal and can lead to a more satisfying game overall.

[Stephen]

But, the big question I have for you is, are you deeply intereasted in the character facet of wanting to stockpile gold? Is what you want to communicate to your GM "I want a guy that triumphantly takes money. That's the sort of plot that's thrilling to me." What sort of payoff are you expecting from it?

Well, you can always rephrase it to be a little more epic.

A Drive "Stockpile all the gold I can" is probably not all that interesting or fair.  A Drive "Buy my way into the upper reaches of Farrenshire society, so I can laugh at the nobles who rejected me because I'm a bastard" will amount to a character trying to amass all the gold he can, but it's much more interesting to think about and easy to roleplay.

The Riddle of Steel is, "What are you willing to kill for, or risk dying for, to gain?"  A player's SAs should be the answer to that question.  If they're not, that's when the SAs are missing the point.

[Half-Baked]

Whether or not the book states that an SA point is lost is up in the air, I can not find it.. I looked in the index to find anything related to SA's and even spirit points. I would like to know where you found it though.

For not acting on a Passion losing a point is found on p.68 at the end of the section describing how to gain SA points with it. The same rules apply for Conscience, Drive and Faith and can be found in their respective sections on p.66 and p.67.

[Jake Norwood]

This is a long thread, so I won't add much, except that I like where things are going. There are no "bad uses for SAs," just "bad ways to get what you want." In other words, if you, the PLAYER wants something out of play, and your SAs don't reflect that, then you're doing it "wrong." This is always taking into account your group and your "social contract," of which the GM/Seneschal is a sort of de-facto moderator (hence always consulting with him/her in selecting SAs).

Jake

[Lance D. Allen]

There are certain limits to acting on your SAs, though.. A Passion: Hatred for Sorcerers shouldn't be a stick to punish you if you decide not to attack two sorcerers and their undead guardians. It should, however, be a carrot to reward you for doing so, if you should survive such an unadviseable action. Common sense and a certain amount of self-preservation instinct should moderate your actions. It does you no good to accept a challenge from the local master swordsman to the death to satisfy your Drive: be the best swordsman ever! when you're so outclassed that even a maxed out Drive wouldn't be enough to save you from a quick death and a shallow grave.

On the other hand, if you don't act on an SA when the risk is fairly minimal, you definitely stand to lose a point. This way, SAs are a carrot at all times to play to them, despite the risks, and only a stick when you really have no reason not to follow them.

[Jaeger]

I have found oone of the ways to avoid all those "bad Sa's" is to make the players figure out thier PC's SA's before they assign thier first priority.

Too often I find that a player will make his PC's numbers and then come up with a concept/pretext so he can take his minmaxed PC/numbers chart out into the world to roleplay and kill stuff.

Make them figure out who thier character is,
his philosophy,
a four sentence background,
Then his SA's.

Only after that is done do you let them fiddle with the numbers.

You now have a player who is more likely to make a character than a combat monster.

And no, Passion: hedonism. Can't be used in combat because if you don't live you will no longer be able to engage in debauchery. (Yes its come up).

[Ingenious]

I agree Wolfen.

Anyways, regardless of how my character feels the influence of SA's.. as a player I need to come up with better, more focused passions, drives, destinies and so on... someone point out to me that having so many generalized SA's might make a character seem to lack depth.
I still am a firm believer though that a flaw and an SA for it are compatible. Like Wolfen said, it is the carrot. It helps to motivate the role-playing of that flaw, or whatever it may be that the SA is tied to.

Sorry for my previous non-coherent postings.

Jaeger posted before my reply, so I'll respond to it here:
The recent character I made... is not geared towards combat at all(another first for me in role-playing). He has 6 total proficiencies.. 2 in dagger alone.. then 2 in crossbow and 2 in throwing knives. His reflex is 6 though, only because I like having high reflexes with my characters. It also helps with his thieving and so forth.. and most of his skills. His perception is also 6, which helps out with his skills further... and his Missile Pool. So while he is a bit min-maxed in stats.. his skills are priority A.. so there is not much chance that he will be anywhere close to an 'uber-rapier guy' or anything like that. Some clod teenager with a longsword and a bit of training could handle this guy... so I let him excel through other means. I already knew the background for this character though, so I knew he would be greedy, liked to kill.. and didn't mind being paid for it.
He also hates nobles. Go figure, you tend to hate the kinds of people that killed your parents.
I agree Jaeger, about the hedonism:
hedonism:
noun
1. pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses. 2. philosophy: the ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good. 3. psychology: the doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.

So the last definition states it is the avoidance of pain, along with the pursuit of pleasure. I figure your thoughts were exactly as mine with that.

-Ingenious

[Bob Richter]

Doing stupid unsafe things is a staple at my gaming table. You'd be surprised how often we get away with it.

Which has led me to the belief that the key to truly great heroism is great stupidity. Or, as Virgil once put it "Una salus victus nullam sparare salutem"

Which leads to lone Mechwarriors charging after the captured Griffin, or a ballsy Savaxen spearmen throwing double-red and gutting his opponet seconds before he would have died himself.
:)