Making a Game out of Magic

[M. J. Young]

First let me make a brief aside on Valamir's objection to the D&D spell system. Sean is right that the referee is expected to prepare the adventure prior to having any knowledge of the character's abilities; my players have that confidence in me that my D&D adventures were prepared long before their characters were involved, so nothing was done "for them" or "against them".

There's another aspect that has been missed, though. Part of the challenge is not whether you can guess what spells the referee has planned for, but whether you can solve whatever problems you face with the spells you have. The Fly spell is mentioned; but when faced with that problem, could you find a way to solve it with a teleport, featherfall, or spider climb, or whatever spells you happen to have in your arsenal? Even a Tie cantrip and a good throw with a piece of rope might be the solution to the problem. Thus it isn't really "guessing what spells I'll need" but more "selecting those spells which will be most useful in solving the problems we might encounter" and then figuring out how to use them when the problem arises.

If you've never been in play when a player finds an entirely novel use for a spell that solves a problem for which another spell was the obvious solution, you probably missed a lot of the fun of the game.

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Now, on to the question.

Multiverser might be one of those

good magic systems out there that let you go for as much as you want (free-form, or no power limit, or both) but make some sort of cost (aging, demonic entanglement, potential for suicidal fumbles vastly increased).

It might still be informative.

To simplify the concept, there's a three-way balancing act going on in Multiverser's spell design: the power of the spell, the investment made in it, and the probability of success.

Power is what you get out of it--damage, range, area, flexibility, efficacy however measured.

Investment is what you put into it, and this is where spell design gets either interesting or crazy, depending on how you view it. What you say, what you do, and what you use are the main factors, but all of these are tweaked by anything that impacts play. Does it take longer to do? Do you have to broadcast what you're doing to someone else (shouting, dancing, pointing, using strange words or movements)? Are there limitations on how, when, or where it works, such as only being cast on the night of the new moon? Are the things used destroyed in the process, or reusable?

Probability of success means that each tweak of the other factors increases or decreases both the chance to create/learn this particular spell and the chance to use it again later. If you make it stronger, the chance of success drops; if you make it weaker, the chance of success rises. If you invest more into it, the chance of success rises; if you invest less, the chance of success drops.

The "system" for using (or learning) magic in the game is the same as for any other skill, whether combat or technology or whatever. The chance to botch is built into that system, and on a botch anything can happen, although the referee is encouraged to look for botches that fit whatever was attempted. (If the attempt involved doing magic, pretty much anything can happen.)

Anyway, this might help you focus on how to make such a magic game function.

--M. J. Young

[Calithena]

MJ wrote: "If you've never been in play when a player finds an entirely novel use for a spell that solves a problem for which another spell was the obvious solution, you probably missed a lot of the fun of the game."

I agree. But this kind of creativity goes for spontaneous magic systems too, albeit it's somewhat different (thinking of appropriate spell when you can think of any vs. thinking of appropriate use for fixed spell). What you can do with zero level Mage Hand in 3e is positively criminal.

There are a lot of great suggestions on this thread. One that hasn't been mentioned is the surreal magic system of Reve, where you have to connect places in the dragon's dream in order to cast spells.

What I'm really looking for is a whole other kind of game to play with magic, though. The card thing would be cool - the cards would formalize an 'element' system so you would combine 'hands' into spells. You could even have a certain number of cards of certain types at any given level. Or you could 'draw' cards as local mana from your local environment. Regular variable replenishment like that might be a way to make a genuinely different form of magic.

I don't know. I like the resource allocation challenge of old D&D and of Vancian magic generally. I also like the creative possibilities of free-form magic. I also like the challenge of 'element combination' systems, of which Multiverser's sounds like another good one.

But what I'm really wondering about right now is a whole new sort of game-challenge to get out of a magic system. Insofar as I have my own ideas about this, something having to do with 'local mana' so you get to the right place to cast the right spell, but you have some control over how you get there and what kinds of places are going to be available, is vaguely percolating in my mind. But what I'm really looking to do is loot the groupmind for new ideas on the problem in general.

[Shreyas Sampat]

Hm.... I think you could accomplish that with that "wheel" thing that Burning Wheel purportedly has (I don't actually own it, so I'm not certain of this...)

The wheel, as far as I can determine, has several nested dials which determine such things as the magical source of the effect, the effect itself, its composition, its range and duration, etc.

So, suppose that each location has a "default" wheel setting, and all magicians have an innate ability to detect the wheel setting of an area.

Magic could consist of rotating the dials to get your desired effects; maybe you could randomize how far you're allowed to rotate the dials, and you can only turn inner dials once the outer dials have been set to your desired effect.  You could possibly have some biasing mechanic that makes you better at manipulating particular dials, or predisposes you to turning them towards certain effects.  Then magic becomes a game of balancing the area's influence against your own mystical biases.

[Paul Czege]

The wholly diceless magic system in Greg Porter's game Epiphany makes use of a random draw from a resource pool to determine the type of mana immediately available available to a spellcaster (ala Magic: the Gathering). Players choose spells to use based on the amount and flavor of mana they have available.

Paul

[BPetroff93]

I can't help but think that magick rules are very applicable to the whole GNS division.  The DnD method, which they stole from the Wizard of Earthsea novels, is great for gamist purposes ie: is this balanced for fair and competative play.  Once you begin to want a different style of play, it becomes grossly unsatisfying.  And then you ask either A) what is more "realistic" or B) what would tell a cool story.   Which are we shooting for Calithena?

[RaconteurX]

Insofar as I have my own ideas about this, something having to do with 'local mana' so you get to the right place to cast the right spell, but you have some control over how you get there and what kinds of places are going to be available, is vaguely percolating in my mind.

Sounds like the magic system from Pendragon (and its FUDGE clone, "Celtic Magic" from A Magical Medley). Both use location-based magical energies as the basis for major workings (minor ones can be attempted using personal power, but typically are much more draining). There is also a similar concept behind casting Enchantments from the Ares magazine boardgame "Albion: Land of Faerie", in that certain Enchantments required that the caster be in specific places of power.