Hesitance towards Glorantha as a Setting

[simon_hibbs]

Simon, no, it's not a cop out. Nobody has said it is. What's a cop out is suggesting that this will work for every other player that's not you, just because it works for you.

Are you saying that?

I've tried not to, because clearly different people have different tastes in this regard. It can be very hard to reach agreement on issues of taste, but I do hope we can come to an appreciation of the reasons for our differences and the value we each get from our preferences. It can be tricky ground to tread though. I realise my posts can be provocative and I hope I haven't gone too far.


Simon Hibbs

[Brand_Robins]

So, chaps, what are the genre conventions of Glorantha?

I'm just riffing here, so bear with me...

These sound good to me. I'd also add a corollary to 1 & 2 that is something along the lines of "myth is what makes community coherent, but also what drives wedges between communities."

A lot of the other points then spill into that -- multiple other worlds, people monsters that still hate you, power from myth and backlash from misused myth -- they all tie in thematically with the relationship between community, mythology, and epistemology/metaphysics.

So that's a good list to start with, as it gets to the heart of a lot of issues and gives some good overarching support. Each of the points could be further expounded, with the understanding that all derivations are contingent.

So things like: Humans can become gods or demi-gods in stature, but only with the support of a community and only by disrupting the current divine power dynamic. (Old Sedenya being the biggest example of this, but Harrek and JarEel and their ilk also demonstrate.) Of course, just because it's doable doesn't mean that its easy, or that it can be done without making the world worse....

There are very few absolute evils. Almost everyone has a point and legitimate reasons for what they do. Even the Goddess of Rape can have a point. There are factions and beliefs, but none of them has total claim to righteousness.

Myth is subjective – different cultures can see the same gods in different ways, or see different gods as being the same.

You should be prepared to be Greged at any point. ;)

Should we maybe start a new thread about this?

[Bankuei]

Hi Pete,

To drop in a couple of themes:

1.  What's really at conflict is values

Since magic responds to all religions pretty equally, there's not empirical proof that any one is more right than the other, so the real conflict comes about "How to live?" and "What is right?", and no amount of magic will tell you that.

2.  There are limitations, going too far leads to disaster.

Tied deeply with the first theme, you can see this from Orlanth slaying Yelm, people trying to create gods, to the result of escalating HeroQuests leading to the destruction of Glorantha itself.  What should be done?  Although all cultures claim to have a handle on it, its shown that each through their traditions, turns out to cause just as much chaos and trouble as fix or avoid it.  

The Hero Wars are about making a new path, one that cuts away the bad, and keeps what is good.  Of course, finding out what that is, the uncharted ground, that's the heart of it.

Chris

[simon_hibbs]

The discussion about the themes/tropes/genre conventions of Glorantha is interesting. Sure these things are characteristic of Glorantha, but they only intrude peripheraly into my actual play experience. They are background atmosphere rather than foreground issues for the vast majority of the time. Presenting all these to newcomers with an implicit expectation that unlkess you're including all these elements you're not playing HeroQuest 'properly' would IMHO be a recipe for disaster.

When I think about genre and Glorantha I think of all the different story genres I can set in Glorantha. Spy thrillers, action adventures, romances, film noir, stories of all of these genres can and indeed have been be set in Glorantha. The fact that the setting is so broad and does not present any particular partisan view in a prefered way opens it up to infinite variations of interpretation, so my advice would be to pick a genre you're familiar with and see how you can use it to tell stories in Glorantha, then introduce the mythic flavour as you become familiar with it.


Simon Hibbs

[pete_darby]

Sure, they only intrude peripherally, but the point is to find stuff, if there is any, that if it's contradicted would make the game not-glorantha: I get the sneaking suspicion that the list is going to be damn short, but there you go.

For example, My 5th point, and Brand's second (myth will bite yo uin the ass, you can become a god, at a vast risk and price), to my mind boil down to : The universe will MAKE you take responsibility for your actions.

But sure, this shoudl be split off... kind of reminds me of a couple of other lists, a-googling I will go....

[Mike Holmes]

Simon, what you're saying is that there are no genre conventions for Glorantha. That, basically, it's a "do what you want with it setting". I don't agree with that, I think the system nowadays supports something more like what Pete's talking about. In fact your supposition is actually sorta scary.

But the point is moot. Brand is telling you that what's needed are the genre conventions, and you're saying there aren't any. Well, isn't that a problem right there? Or should we just accept that having no genre conventions make it a better game for everybody?

It can be very hard to reach agreement on issues of taste,

In fact, often it's impossible, taste being a personal thing. Further, I'm not seeing the mandate for us to agree. Takes all sorts, right? Why can't we just agree to have different viewpoints on this?

I will take you at your word that you're really interested in trying to understand each other's tastes - that's very kind. The problem is that when I state my taste, you say, "But, all you have to do is understand that nothing is canon in Glorantha." Even when I've posted that this is missing the point. I just find that hard to see as trying to understand my position so much as trying to change my mind about something that's related to my personal preferences.

See, somewhere along the way it seems that my problem with the setting became, to you, an attack on the setting, as if to say, "Aha! See! All you playing the Glorantha setting are freaks!" But I've said nothing of the sort - nobody has. It's completely my problem, and I think that y'all are doing the right thing for you by playing your way. I wouldn't want you to change anything that you're doing. In other words, I completely see the "value" you get from your preference.

It just doesn't work for me. Further, I'm not sure at this point that there's really any point in trying to explain why further. Because I have a solution that's working swimmingly well for me. If you still really think that I'm missing something, then please look back at my previous posts to this thread, and ask some questions so that you can better understand my position. Because, so far, your solutions indicate to me that you really don't understand the problem that I have.

Mike

[Brand_Robins]

Spy thrillers, action adventures, romances, film noir, stories of all of these genres can and indeed have been be set in Glorantha.

And nothing I'm suggesting says it couldn't. "Genre" in my posts is not being used exactly as you're using it. Even if it was, there is also no reason you can't have cross or multiple genre works. In fact many of the favorite works of RPG history (and several in literary history) have been just such.

For the kind of "genre theory" I'm talking about see this article here: http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/intgenre/intgenre.html -- it explains it more clearly than I do, I'm quite sure.

One of the key issues you'll see raised in that article is that in many works the genre acts as the background, the spine, the frame -- allowing the specific content of the individual work to stand out more strongly. So your other point, about the genre issues being background, would be quite correct. My point is that building off of that background understanding allows for the specific content to be interesting, where specific content with no background understanding is just confusing and annoying.

[simon_hibbs]

But the point is moot. Brand is telling you that what's needed are the genre conventions, and you're saying there aren't any. Well, isn't that a problem right there? Or should we just accept that having no genre conventions make it a better game for everybody?

Perhaps it's down to us meaning slightly different things by genre. I'm still in the dialogue though and reading what everyone is posting, and I agree Brand's posts make a lot of sense. I'm just trying to articulate my feeling that I've played in many genres in Glorantha. I'm not entirely sure that Glorantha is a genre, but I'm avoiding taking that stance explicitly because I want to hear more about how other people thionk it is without actualy geting into an argument.

It can be very hard to reach agreement on issues of taste,

In fact, often it's impossible, taste being a personal thing. Further, I'm not seeing the mandate for us to agree. Takes all sorts, right? Why can't we just agree to have different viewpoints on this?

Er, we do, don't we?

I will take you at your word that you're really interested in trying to understand each other's tastes - that's very kind. The problem is that when I state my taste, you say, "But, all you have to do is understand that nothing is canon in Glorantha." Even when I've posted that this is missing the point. I just find that hard to see as trying to understand my position so much as trying to change my mind about something that's related to my personal preferences.

I'm not saying that nothing is cannon in glorantha, there's plenty of cannon. I'm just saying that when I run games I do not feel that I have to stick religiously to cannon, and describing how and why I vary from it. That's my preference, but not yours. Vive le difference!

See, somewhere along the way it seems that my problem with the setting became, to you, an attack on the setting, as if to say, "Aha! See! All you playing the Glorantha setting are freaks!"

I haven't said that, and I realy don't see how you can think I've implied it either. Especialy since I often don't play the glorantha setting strictly according to cannon anyway. I've also discussed this issue with regard to other settings, I don't think this problem is unique to glorantha but occurs for any setting which is detailed to such a great extent.

It just doesn't work for me. Further, I'm not sure at this point that there's really any point in trying to explain why further. Because I have a solution that's working swimmingly well for me. If you still really think that I'm missing something, then please look back at my previous posts to this thread, and ask some questions so that you can better understand my position. Because, so far, your solutions indicate to me that you really don't understand the problem that I have.

No, I do understand the problem. I very much get the value you derive from having almost complete creative freedom with respect to your setting, without any concern that there might be other 'cannon' versions of the setting out there that may differ. It must avoid a lot of potential confusion.

I'm just trying to explain how I put YGWV into practice, that it is a viable technique that is capable of resolving many of the problems people seem to have with running games in Glorantha. Of couse whether or not those solutions are to the taste of individual gamers will vary.


Simon Hibbs

[Mike Holmes]

OK.

Let's see, you don't feel like you're being attacked (which makes the "cop-out" comment seem odd, but), and you understand my POV, and you long ago stated your point. So why are we still talking about this on this thread?

Just addressing the genre issue?

Mike