Priest Problems

[Kilor Di]

In my game, there are seven elements.  Time, Space, Light, Sound, Life, and Death.  There are also mages that specify in a specific element (ie Chronomancers, Necromancers, etc.).  This creates an interesting problem.  Namely that, with mages of the element of Life, what would be the purpose of having priests?  Keep in mind that any answer that involves the phrase "they can turn undead" will be answered with "why?"  I never understood the logic of why a priest can turn undead.

EDIT: And besides, I've already decided that IF there are priest characters in this world, they will not be able to turn undead, but will instead have a power dependant on which deity they worship (this idea came before I played D&D 3rd edition, in case anyone wants to know)

[Andrew Martin]

...what would be the purpose of having priests?

Priests mediate between the god/s and the people.

See HeroQuest for a good tutorial on priests, animists & shamans, wizard/priests, and monks.

[anonymouse]

Um, why do you need priests? Is it going to be a D&D game?

You could just have "priest" or "cleric" or whatever as a title; that is, someone who specialises in Life is called a priest.

[Lxndr]

Time, Space, Light, Sound, Life, and Death....

what's the seventh?

[teucer]

Time, Space, Light, Sound, Life, and Death....

what's the seventh?

Death.

The sixth is "and".

[Kilor Di]

Oh, ha ha.  I MEANT to type six.  I don't know why I typed seven.

And the reason why I might need priests is because that people believe they are one of the prime classes.  A prime class is the class that every other class is derived from.  For instance, barbarians and monks are variations of the fighter, ninjas are a combination of a fighter and a thief, etc.  In every fantasy game, you always have the prime classes.  The problem with this theory is that priests, which most everyone believes is a prime class, are a combination of fighters and wizards (they can use weapons and wear armor, but they can also cast spells).  The only reason the priest is considered different is because they have their own types of spells (in most games) and the ability to turn undead (in most games).

I could take Life Mages and call them Priests, but I'd rather use real priests instead of mages called Priests.  I think I'll just give them normal magic instead of creating "priest spells", and let the deities worry about which clerics learn what spells.

[Jasper]

Kilor,

You talk about people believing in "prime classes" as though they had some necessary existence in all of fantasy.  It's certainly not the case that all fantasy games have them.  D&D did it, yes.  A lot of people imitated it.  Why should you?  Just tradition?  There's more than one way to do fantasy, and the D&D way has been done to death already.

Your current scheme seems eminantly workable to me, as is.  You want people in charge of healing, etc.  You've got 'em.   If you want the game to have historical roots, and therefore have priests, others have made good suggestions.  Another would be that while you have mages doing life and death, neither has anything to do with after life, which is a big part of religion.  Anyway, why do priests have to be wielders of awesome power?

[Kilor Di]

You talk about people believing in "prime classes" as though they had some necessary existence in all of fantasy.  It's certainly not the case that all fantasy games have them.  D&D did it, yes.  A lot of people imitated it.  Why should you?  Just tradition?  There's more than one way to do fantasy, and the D&D way has been done to death already.

Y'know, when I say things like that to other people, they usually say "yeah, but you don't want to be TOO original".  As if there is such a thing as TOO original.  I'm shamed to say it, but you're right.  I need something original.

Here's an idea.  The abilities of a priest depend of their deity (why not?  I already gave them "special powers" dependant on their deity).  A priest of the Povine, The God of Battle would be a capable warrior, but have no spells (besides the divine gift of being able to increase how accurate their weapon is on occasion).  On the other hand, a priest of Tyrak Senagosh, the Twin Deity of Magic, would be a capable spellcaster, but would be not be able to use weapons very well (which would work well with the divine gift of casting a random spell).

Here's an idea I thought of a few minutes ago.  Let me know what you think.  When a person becomes a priest, the symbol of their deity is burned into their skin by divine forces, forever binding them to their deity.  This gives priests more dire consequences than merely losing their powers for betraying their faith.  For instance, if a priest of Tairn, Dragon God of Justice, knowingly and willingly gave a holy relic of Tairn to the followers of some evil deity (I can't remember the evil deities names at the moment), then their bodies would be wracked with pain, and besides losing whatever spells they may have had until they've attoned for their sin, they also have to face whatever punishment their particular god (in this case, Tairn) hands down to the unfaithful (in this case, for every night until they attone, they feel as if their bodies are being wracked with fire, bringing them great pain and making them unable to sleep).

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Let's back up a minute. If you're asking, "Why would there be priests" and not coming up with an answer, then you've already answered yourself. Just don't have priests. If there are NPC priests, then they're the same normal-guy schmoes that they are in the real world, no powerz or kewlness or player-character status at all.

It sounds to me as if you're working with the assumption that people want to see all the same options in your game as they see in D&D. I suggest that you can lose that assumption without any trouble at all.

Best,
Ron

[Luke]

I too recommend on shucking tradition. Don't do something just because "another game" has it. This just leads to incestuous traps. If something's cool, imitate it and give credit. But if your pulling an element from a game, and it doesn't fit, ditch it. Ditch it, ditch it, ditch it.

(I speak from experience. Embarassing experience.)

But if you're dead set on including "priests" in your game, I suggest doing some research. Look back to the original roles of priests in Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Babylon. Look at the roles of priests in ancient Egypt. Look at Persian priests, priests of Greek mystery cults. Look at Doaist monks, Confucianist scholars, Buddhists and Shintos. Look at imams and heirophants!

Then look back at your priests with fresh eyes. A first and foremost, a priest is a promolgator of religion. What are the religions? Why are there religions? What morals do these religions enforce?

A good overview of the role of priests and religion in society can be found in J Campbell's Primitive Mythology.

Good luck!
-L

[Spooky Fanboy]

Or, for a really radical idea, have *all* the magic-users be priests. Have them pull double-duty in your game: not only are they philosopher-scientist explorers of reality's secrets, they also administer to the unenlightened and use their wisdom to promote harmony to their community. Have magic-using be a sacred art and a high calling. Adds to the drama when magic-users collide.

[ADGBoss]

I am going to pull some of what abzu said to take the point further.  BEfore you can have priests and worshipers you have to have "gods"  or spirituality in whatever form, in the first place.

I think its too easy to assume that IF gods exist then MANY gods exist and they are going to empower their adherents with a divine magic.  This is not necassarily the case.  Perhaps its a world of science? Maybe its a Deist world, where the Gods left and forgot to take their toys?  Maybe all religion is bunk, hiding the use of forbidden magics behind false dogma.
Perhaps its like Stargate? Bow down to your Gof, Apophis!  

When the create a prime class you continue a stereotype.  That is not necassarily a bad thing but think: Are people who like playing Priests but hate being the "Medic" going to want to play your game if once again they get pigeonholed?  I would submit that of all the classes from the "original" no single one continues to be more broken then the Cleric.  No aspect of fantasy role playing is less understood then Religion.  

As a final thing, what have many Gods anyway? Whats wrong with 1 God and some less powerful rebel spirits aka Judeo-Christian idea.   OR Twist it, how about a nasty One God and nice guy fallen angels who want to protect humanity as opposed to seducing us all down the dark path?

As an aside I love Sppoky's idea too.

Sean

[Jack Aidley]

I would have thought 'Priest' fits best as a social class, like peasent, freeman, gentry, nobility. This harks to the medieval idea of three classes of people: those who work, those who pray, those who fight.

[Marhault]

I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned this.
Priests don't have to be a spellcasting class!  There's no particular reason (other than your desires for your game world) that a person who leads the people in religion should necessarily be able to simply call on their God to work a little magic when the spirit drives them.
Supernatural abilites granted by the divine should be based on a character's relationship with their God, if there are any at all.  If you're priest class is branded, it sounds like they're pretty tight, but Miracles might still be an extremeley rare occurence.
Gods and Goddesses of Earthly religions rarely involve themselves directly with humans.  Sure, He might part the sea, but only when His chosen people are about to be attacked and slapped back in irons.  Even the Greek Gods, who have so many stories of their involvement with the peoples of Earth only have stories which are way off from actual history of the period.

[ADGBoss]

Well everyone is making a good point but Ron really kind of hits the nail on the head.  Simply put, do not assume that because its tradition that its right for YOUR game.

My best example is sitting with a friend who was designing his game and he was complaining that d10 Initiative was not working well and he was trying to add MORE rules so that it would.  So I asked him why he had to have a d10 for initiative.

"Because thats what everyone else uses." Everyone else in this case being AD&D 2nd Edition and Cyberpunk.  The point is though that just because thats the way it HAS been done does not mean people won't buy into what your selling if its Different.  In fact I would dare so people in gaming are craving Different, but I could be wrong.

Sean