Initiative Question

[Keith Senkowski]

Hi.  I'm trying to convince my regular gaming group to use TROS four our Midnight campaign.  There is some interest, but the question has come up from our GM about the Initiative mechanic.  He and I are a little confused on how you run a battle when you have multiple opponents fighting at the same time.

For example, with the D20 system, a recent fight we had with the guards of a slave caravan was simple.  We all rolled initiative for the battle as did the GM for our opponents and that was the order in which events happened.  With TROS it seems that because of the face off type of combat system and battle that includes 7 players and the GM would be hard to keep track of.  Please tell me I am wrong and explain to me how things work properly.

Thanks
Keith Senkowski

[Trevis Martin]

My TROS-fu is not as strong as some but let me see if I can help.

Say for example that you are having your seven players attack or be attacked by a group of oh, say 10 opponenets.

So you have to decide your strategy.  (I mean hopefully you ambushed them anyway and cut down a few before they had a chance to react.)  But say it isn't so and you have to face them.

Players declare their stances, Gm declares stances of the opponents.

gm declares which opponents are engaging which players.  Gm and players throw intiative dice, determining whether to attack or defend.

If any player has a multiple attackers (no more than three can focus on a single player) he can use some of his CP for a terrain roll.  If he is successful, then he has manuvered so that he only has to fight one opponent.  If he fails, then another opponent get through and your player will have to divide his CP between the two fights, If he botches then two opponents get through and he has to divide his CP between three fights (eep! Hope your SA's are working!)

You then run the seperate combat exchanges for that round declaring maneuvers, etc.

I'm not sure but I think you can reroll terrain for every round (not exchange)

Like I said, if the players are smart, they will try some other things before just marching in against superior numbers.  Surprise attacks, Missile attacks first if possible.  Either that or the Maiden they are in love with is in the possession of the Lord they hate and they are destined to...well you get the idea (Lots of Sa's are contributing extra dice.)

Does that answer your question?

I think variant mass combat rules are due out in The Flower of Battle as well.  

I suppose it is more complicated than the simplified rolls you mention above.  But I've done it and I didn't find it terribly hard to track.

regards,

Trevis

[November Kilo]

I think Trevis nailed it.  If that's not enough, I used this scenario to teach my group:  

Fred is fighting Bert and Bill.  Fred has a Combat Pool of 15.  

Bert & Bill move into range of Fred, the GM calls for initiative.  Fred stops him, saying that he wants to react to his enemy's advance (make a terrain roll to get single opponent).  

GM says that Fred is Hurried, therefore, he has a TN of 6.  Fred takes 3 dice and rolls 2, 4, and 5.  He now has 12 (15-3) in his pool, and is facing two opponents.  Had Fred rolled a 6 or more, he'd only be facing one of his opponents, one of his choice, and still have 12 dice in his pool.  

GM calls for initiative.  Fred drops white, both his opponents drop red.  

Bill has a higher Reflex than Bert, so the GM rules that he'll run that sub-duel first.  Bill calls for a Cut to III Left (his right) with 8 dice.  Fred, declares a Full Evade with 12 dice.  He gets 8 successes.  Bill gets only 5 successes, therefore, Fred gets to disengage.  Hopefully he gets a better terrain roll next round.  

Of course, Bert still gets to attack Fred, and Fred has no dice.  It depends on how you read/rule on the Full Evade.  Dang.  Now I have to post a question to the gurus.

[Alan]

Hi Guys,

Terrain Rolls are made after initiative is thrown and _every_ Exchange before attacks are resolved.  This means that, in a three person fight, one person may get locked out in one exchange, but not in the next.

However, this has brought up some questions of my own - Jake, where are you?

1) Do you make Terrain Rolls before or after the participants commit their maneuver dice?  My take would be before.

2) What happens to the Inititiave of the opponent who gets locked out?  Eg.

A & B both declare red, attacking C, who rolled white.  

1st Echange:
-C Makes his Multiple Opponent role, cutting B out of the exchange.  
-A declares Cut, C declares parry.  C defends and takes inititiave over A.

2nd Exchange:
- C Fails his MO roll and must fight both

Is B still considered to have thrown red?  Would C & B both be agressors and declare in reverse order of Reflex, while A, as receiver, must declare after them?

[Lance D. Allen]

With TROS it seems that because of the face off type of combat system and battle that includes 7 players and the GM would be hard to keep track of.

Mon Dieu! 7 players?? It's gonna be hard to keep track of if you play tiddly-winks, with that many players...

Honestly, though a lot of people seem to have a mini-phobia 'round these parts, I'd use miniatures for combats of that size to help keep track of relative position. TRoS is set up to be able to work with miniatures on a hex-grid, though the rules are minimal. However, they don't need to be complex, really.

To clarify a bit on the two-on-one example, here is how I would handle certain things.. First off, I wouldn't treat it as two sub-duels, but that could just be me. To use NK's examples..

Fred calls for a terrain roll to try to maneuver around his opponents. Rolls 3 dice, fails. Initiative comes, Fred drops red, and, surprise surprise, both of his opponents drop red. Bert thrusts for Fred's face with 7 dice, and Bill slashes for his side with 8 dice. Fred, the poor sod, only has 1 weapon, we'll say a longsword, so a double-parry is out of the question. He could do a full evade, as NK described, but if I were playing Fred, I'd get a Seneschal call on that first. Seneschal would determine if a full evade (essentially getting the hell out of there) would get him away from both opponents. If he were in open terrain, with a clear avenue of escape which doesn't lead toward either opponent, then a full evade should be viable. If he's in a hallway, and their on either side of him, it would not be. If he's in a hallway, with both opponents to one side of him, it'd be viable. We're going to assume, for whatever reason, that a full evade is NOT viable to get him away from both opponents... So say that Fred parries Bert's thrust with 6 dice (the face is a far more painful place to get hit than the side..) and attempts to evade the second with a partial evade with 6 dice. We'll say that Fred is good enough that both worked.. But he's got no dice left for the next exchange, and both of his opponents (unless 8 and 7 respectively were their full CPs) still have dice to attack. Fred's possibly won the initiative when he won the defense (unless he tied, which is likely), but because he left nothing in reserve, they get the attack.

As you can see, being outnumbered and unable to full evade, and failing to outmaneuver your opponents is a quick way to pain and misery.

[Jake Norwood]

However, this has brought up some questions of my own - Jake, where are you?

Still twitching and swearing from hearing the "swords in the appendix" complaint again.

1) Do you make Terrain Rolls before or after the participants commit their maneuver dice?  My take would be before.

I do it before anything is rolled, because it effects everything that gets rolled.

2) What happens to the Inititiave of the opponent who gets locked out?  Eg.

Honestly, in the case of multiple opponents, I'd do the terrain roll before initiative. But, if you don't, then his initiative is simply irrelevant, because he's not "in the fight" anymore.

A & B both declare red, attacking C, who rolled white.  

This is the first mistake. C has to throw an init die for each of his opponents, or it's assumed that they're both the same. This would, therefore, be the same thing as "he throws white against both."

1st Echange:
-C Makes his Multiple Opponent role, cutting B out of the exchange.  
-A declares Cut, C declares parry.  C defends and takes inititiave over A.

So far so good.

2nd Exchange:
- C Fails his MO roll and must fight both

Is B still considered to have thrown red?  Would C & B both be agressors and declare in reverse order of Reflex, while A, as receiver, must declare after them?

Ooooh, tough question! I would say that yes, B can be red or white as he wishes, and since he threw red before he's just holding to that (which is quite reasonable). However, that I'm aware, the rules don't say that you roll Terrain every exchange, but rather it should be every round (which, my fault, is also not clearly expressed). Thus that first terrain roll was good for the whole round, not just one exhange! Whether or not B is red or white on the second round, however, is up to the player controlling him.

Does that make sense?

[Alan]

I didn't understand that Terrain rolls were once a Round, or that you throw init against everyone who's attacking you.

Thanks Jake.  This actually clears up other confusions I was running into as a result.

[Keith Senkowski]

Thanks for the responses folks.  They have been very helpful.  

Seven players and a GM have their problems, but the diversity of gaming styles and characters makes up for some of the headaches we face.

However, I have yet another question.....Initiative in D20 isn't always directly about combat.  A lot of times it is about other actions (ie hiding, running away, moving a little closer and not engaging) and I was wondering how you would manage than in TROS.

I ask these questions because I want to convert from the D20 Midnight to TROS Midnight and since I am the only one who currently owns the book I know they will lok to me for answers.  In past experiences of trying new stuff, the second a question couldn't be answered this group tends to shy away so I want to be prepared.

Thanks.
Keith Senkowski

[Valamir]

Good example Lance,  What would you think about holding 2 dice back from the double defense so you don't run into the losing initiative from running out of dice effect.   I think I'd rather have a slightly better chance of taking 1 extra wound level from each of the first attacks, then automatically lose the initiative and be open to massive smack down in the second exchange.

Of course, if Fred had any Luck at all, that Terrain roll would have been a good time to burn it.  

I'm pretty much convinced that, except for avoiding an absolutely fatal attack, the best thing to save luck points for are Terrain rolls when out numbered.


As far as the timing of non combat events I think the default rule is just to assume Reflex order is it not?   Pretty much each engagement occurs in the order of the Reflex of whoever the attacking party is, and non engaged folks doing other things (like hiding or shooting bows) just slip into the order according to their own Reflex.  

I don't remember what breaks Reflex ties...perhaps Perception or WP, though I'd have to look that up.

Personally, if I were looking to house rule it...I'd probably use Perception INSTEAD of Reflex for non engaged people (i.e. compare the Perception of non engaged people to the Reflex of engaged people).  But that's pretty much my own little sim pecadillio about the first step of reacting to anything is noticing it to begin with.

[Jake Norwood]

Thanks for the responses folks.  They have been very helpful.  

Seven players and a GM have their problems, but the diversity of gaming styles and characters makes up for some of the headaches we face.

However, I have yet another question.....Initiative in D20 isn't always directly about combat.  A lot of times it is about other actions (ie hiding, running away, moving a little closer and not engaging) and I was wondering how you would manage than in TROS.

I ask these questions because I want to convert from the D20 Midnight to TROS Midnight and since I am the only one who currently owns the book I know they will lok to me for answers.  In past experiences of trying new stuff, the second a question couldn't be answered this group tends to shy away so I want to be prepared.

Thanks.
Keith Senkowski

Whenever everyone is trying to go at the same time, including in combat, use a reflex roll to determine who gets to do the same thing first. The TN is 6 if there's no reason for it to be otherwise.

Jake