The state of RPGs

[Scourge108]

I'm so glad I found this site.  I've been gaming since before people decided it was Satanic way back in the good old cold war days.  The creative bug does bite me every once in a while, but it usually takes the form of gaming material for some reason.  I read in one of the articles about somebody recalling their school notebooks filled with noted on new game ideas instead of homework, and I had to laugh out loud since that describes all my old notebooks.  It was after reading Wraith: the Oblivion that I decided that RPG writing really is a legitimate form of artistic expression.  The game had a theme as strong as any movie, novel, or other work of art.  The very worldly things that held the wraiths to this world and its suffering were also the things that gave them joy.  It was all about passion and angst, and letting go of it all.  Beautiful.  

Anyway, I've been reading all of the articles on this site and all, but before I jump in with my current pseudo-game idea, I want to make sure I'm up to speed.  Here's the situation currently in gaming as I see it.  Let me know what parts are in the "well, duh" category, which have been discussed and agreed upon, or which are mistaken assumptions.  

As I said, I consider this to be a form of artistic expression as valid as filmmaking (and movies are my other passion).  It's always been an underground thing, really, and doesn't seem in any immediate danger of moving into mainstream.  This does't mean that it will forever be considered so.  But the reality is that the business is rapidly dying.  Games aren't selling.  The stores don't even carry them anymore.  I can't buy anything non-d20 except over the internet.  The reasons are legion.  A lot of gamers I know just seem to have completely lost interest.  There are video games, CCGs, and other things to do, and it's very difficult to get people together all at the same time.  Few people seem to have the temperament for it anyway.  And gamers seem to be very moody, and when they hate something they hate it with every fiber of their being, and generally for a very trivial reason.  I've dissected people's strong opinions on RPGs the hate, comparing it to ones they like, and it always seems to come down to the fact that their first experience with the game in question was unpleasant, and so they will never try it again.  The fact that it might be totally different in different circumstances is irrelevant.  And then there's the geek factor.  I admit it, I'm a closet geek.  Admitting you're a gamer publicly is very much like taking a vow of celibacy, so I tend to keep it to myself.  It really doesn't help that nearly every gamer I know is going out of their way to resemble the Comic Book Guy on the Simpsons as much as possible.  That's a stereotype I'd really like to see die off.  I also have spoken to several women who were put off gaming because they got tired of getting hit on by all the guys there.  But at any rate, d20 and maybe Vampire if it survives the Requiem seem to be the only games that are going to be making any money.  

That's where the light of the Forge at the end of the tunnel comes in.  I had all these ideas that my friends really weren't interested in, and gamers are too hard to come by to ever really have a chance to share it with anyone who might care.  As long as there's a loyal fan base out there who appreciates the art form, it will stay alive.  My creativity seems all to be channeled into gaming.  But if it's never going to be played, what's the point?  I'm hoping some other people know what I'm talking about, and that we can keep sharing our ideas and innovations and keep the art alive.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello, and welcome!

Boy, are you going to like this ...

A while ago, I initiated a series of threads that came to be called the "Infamous Five." I think they were the most important threads of the site's history in terms of unifying the various angles the different forums represent.

The fifth one is The Forge as a community, and I'm giving the link because it includes links to all the other ones as well as their "spawned" threads. There are a few more in Site Discussion were spawned from this one; they shouldn't be hard to find once you know the dates/page involved.

Anyway, I apologize in advance for inflicting thousands of words of posts on you, but I really, really think you'll like them.

Best,
Ron

[Scourge108]

Wow, that was a lot of reading.  So much I want to comment on, I wouldn't even know where to start.  But to keep to the topic of the thread, It does seem to me like there are quite a few people who see the situation like I do.  RPGs are probably never going to be mainstream.  Reading some of the suggestions to do so made me cringe.  I asked my girlfriend, a non-gamer, if there were a roleplaying game about some of the things she likes...say, one about Jane Austen period pieces, or romantic comedies, or Friends, would she be interested then?  As I suspected, no.  And neither would I.  The industry isn't dead, but it seems very comatose.  But this could be a blessing in disguise.  Most casual gamers have completely given the hobby up, and it its vitals are being kept up by a few diehard fans.  But out of the public eye, we may have a chance to start over.  This could be the opportunity to break away from the D&D stigma.  Let's be brutally honest:  there is no Santa Claus, Rosebud is a sled, and you are never going to make a billion dollars designing RPGs and sleep on a stack of supermodels.  But when people make something not to get rich, but because they love it, that's when it becomes great.  That's what I see here.  I remember an interview with the writers at Mystery Science Theater 3000 when they said one of their secrets in writing jokes is that they never ask "will people get this?"  Instead they say "the right people will get this."  So let's make games we want to play for ourselves.  Evolve.  When I see things like Kill Puppies for Satan and Sorcerer, I realize that it can definitely be cool.  Imagine if they had been the first instead of D&D.  People would definitely have a different image of gamers.  It might not be a better one.  But it would probably be a cooler one.  Like I said, that's what I see here.

[contracycle]

, and you are never going to make a billion dollars designing RPGs and sleep on a stack of supermodels.

I should think not.  All those pointy knees and elbows would make for a very uncomfortable bed.

[Loki]

, and you are never going to make a billion dollars designing RPGs and sleep on a stack of supermodels.

I should think not.  All those pointy knees and elbows would make for a very uncomfortable bed.

Let's not knock it til we've tried it, okay? ;^)

[james_west]

I suppose I'm not sure I agree with the lead author's primary thesis - that role-playing games are in steep decline. Not even sure how it would be testable; are declining industry dollars indicative? -Are- they declining? Denver's got more dedicated game stores, all of them apparently quite busy, than it did eight years ago when I arrived.

More to the point, when I look into the back rooms of these game stores on a Friday night, they're overflowing with games, with almost all of the players under 30. At conventions in Denver, there are a smattering of us old-timers, but the bulk of the folks are under 30, with more than a quarter under 20.

Unfortunately from my point of view, the vast majority of what's getting played is D&D, but I find that I never have trouble filling an experimental game.

And perhaps it's just the sort of game I run, but I find that the male-female imbalance in rpgs has decreased greatly in the past twenty years; from my own games, and from observation at conventions, I'll bet it's about 60:40 at this point, or at worst 70:30.

What I suspect -is- true is that many of the most casual players have been drawn off into computer games. This, however, is, as the authors above point out, not neccesarily a bad thing.

- James

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I think that "the industry" as commonly constructed (retailer stores' viability, distribution reliability) is not actually the same thing as publishing, sales, and actual play ...

... and therefore that the perception of "decline" can be recognized as an illusion.

What I see are many active publishers who profit from their work. I also see many groups playing and enjoying doing so. That looks like a real industry to me - especially since it's properly sized to its current market and has some potential to expand that market. I am speaking of the largely independent, largely direct-sale publishers, with some presence in the stores, but not relying on them wholly.

Lots of people don't fit this profile, but in all cases, I think it's their own doing rather than any difficulties with the hobby as described in the above paragraph.

Publishers who contribute to their own sales-failure (usually by over-aligning with middle-tier interests), retailers who order and promote in ways that leave them deep in debt, and customers who cannot distinguish between consumerism and fun are all off my screen, as far as "the industry" is concerned. They are, as I see it, barely even in the hobby. They aren't "declining," they're a disaster and they've always been a disaster - over there.

Occasional successes in that disaster-area, often netting plenty of bucks in the short run, are merely distractions, the equivalent of someone who (out of many) manages to sprint through the eight lanes of highway traffic and then shouts, "I did it" - an anomaly, not a successful (i.e. reliable) strategy.

Best,
Ron

[Scourge108]

Hello,

I think that "the industry" as commonly constructed (retailer stores' viability, distribution reliability) is not actually the same thing as publishing, sales, and actual play ...

... and therefore that the perception of "decline" can be recognized as an illusion.

Thank you for making my point more eloquently than I did.  That's in a nutshell what I meant.  I know many people who have been turned off the hobby because they feel it's "dead."  There's nothing in the bookstores but d20 stuff, if you're into that, and that's even getting to be a smaller and smaller section (often sharing a single shelf with the graphic novels, the other thing I'm usually looking for).  But yes, I agree, that's an illusion, and may even be a distraction.  Nothing has reminded me of roleplaying in it's early days, before it was evil or dorky, when the people in it were full of all kinds of new wild ideas, as the Forge and the Indie RPG scene.  It's inspired me to give some clumsy attempts at possibly publishing some of my ideas, now that I'm sure someone will play it some time, even if just to tell me it sucks and send me back with some different ideas.

[Ron Edwards]

Yay! Doing the happy dance. Thank you for joining the community.

Best,
Ron

[Bob the Fighter]

then let's practice necromancy!
My roommate works for AEG. I was reading up on the latest version of Cthonian the RPG one night, and he walked over. He asked what I was reading. I responded, and watched him look back at his computer, with his latest assignment glowing back at him.
Then he said, "I bet you're having more fun than I am, aren't you?" I simply grinned.
The Forge has been a really great resource for me for a couple years now, and I'm glad to have it when I'm sick of reading D&D.

[MikesLeftHand]

asked my girlfriend, a non-gamer, if there were a roleplaying game about some of the things she likes...say, one about Jane Austen period pieces, or romantic comedies, or Friends, would she be interested then? As I suspected, no. And neither would I.

You sure? I have attended roleplaying games set in 1800 rural Norway. There has been several games mimicking soap operas (not actual soaps, but the genre), and I will be attending a game set in a dandy 17th century setting. And you know what's really weird? These games have had no problem attracting girls, quite the contrary. All right, these were all roleplaying of the live-action variety, but you also have a game called "Fabula:Romans" that deals with courtly love in a seriously Austen fashion, that attracts girls and boys alike.

I don't think any setting is unsuitable for roleplaying; roleplaying is that strong as a medium.

Aksel

[gabby2600]

I to feel the same about the gaming industry and with my sturdy party of cohorts were hoping to make a little bit of a difference.

http://www.immanionpress.wox.org/storm/

The Wraeththu RPG

It's new it's not D20 or WW, and the idea is based around a world realised in novels long before the thought of the game was done. The original concept was to just develop the world in a kind of encyclopaedia format, and so new Novels can be written in the world. It slowly developed in to a valid and extremely vibrant gaming world.

I don't expect to sell millions but as our costs are low and all our staff are writers who are doing this for he love of it then I think we can take the artistic and literary angle to a new level. The game may be of interest to you it may not but one day I hope we can make some kind of difference, with our philosophy, as we have a number of new and original world and setting to develop from High tech sci-fi to gritty Steam punk. All of these are being developed by writers and authors who have been writing for years.

I do think the big negative point about the gaming industry is the image it has received over the years, not jus the people who play the games, but also the presentation of the books. Most books (Mongoose Conan D20) are so badly laid out and difficult to read in places many new potential players are put of by the fusty look which is aimed at the gamer geek rather than the general public. Probably the best designed game I have seen in many years is Noblis, not my type of game but it's looks well presented, however once you start reading things are obvious they aimed it at the gamer geek.

Were trying to aim our game at new players so our book reads more like an idiots guide mixed with ideas and the reasons why people do this. At the end of the day you ask Joe Normal why they think a gamer plays RPG's and I bet they have no clue. Because the books don't give Joe normal the right impress when they pick them up.

At the end of the Day I spent 3 years studying graphic Design so I may as well use my skills to the full and make a book that?s easy to read, index and looks appealing to Joe Normal. Were not interested in making millions and shifting x thousand units we want to create a game that people will enjoy and we will enjoy playing as well.

We love what were are doing, and when money become more of an issue than what the beer is like in Immanion, then it?s time we quit.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

This thread has served its purpose and is now closed.

Best,
Ron