Planescape HeroQuest

[doubtofbuddha]

It has been discussed in the past, and I know that Ron Edwards ran a game using it, but there has yet to be a true, widely-available conversion of the Planescape setting to the HeroQuest rule set.

The purpose of this thread is to construct a conversion of the setting with a secondary purpose of integrating the various genre tropes, as discussed in previous threads, of both Planescape and HeroQuest.

The HeroQuest tropes have been established, by Brand Robins as being:

"1. Myth Defines: This can be either the Sim "myth as background" or the Nar "myth as premise" – but in either case it is Mythology, not history or politics or even geography, that defines the world on the deepest level.

2. Community is Central: This ties in with mythology, as myths are communal events, but also goes farther. Everyone is from somewhere, and the place you are from determines a lot about you. This includes many of the 'monsters' of HeroQuest – who have communities and myths of their own that make them understandable and "human" but whom still are inherently opposed to humanity. This is the "Us vs. Them."

3. Values are in Conflict: This is the part where you have to decide who "Us" and "Them" is, what that means, and what you're willing to do about it. Big decisions in Glorantha are always about the clash between values and passions, either on the individual or global level. Old ways should conflict with new ways, their ways with our ways, and so on. Wars in Glorantha aren't just about controlling land – they're about belief and value systems.

4. Power Has a Price: It is possible for a human in Glorantha to become a god, or at least a demi-god if they gain their power from myths and communities. However, this power always has a price – both to you and to the world. From the Red Moon losing her humanity and changing the whole world in ways that create chaos, to Herrek becoming renegade and outcast, there are always ways to gain power, but never a way to do it without a price.

5. Ambiguous References: HeroQuest talks about this in reference to character generation, but I think it works for the world as a whole and for building games in the world. What is the Knight of Ghosts and Shadows, the Sacred Thread, the City of the Elephant, or Little Speaker of the Bush Voice? They're ambiguous references, things that give a mythic feel without being tied to a canon point (and so this could be a corollary to #1). When they come up in the game they can be filled in (by GM or player, depending on narrative rights in your game), left dark, or expanded upon as needed. I honestly think a lot of sticky points in Gloranthan canon have become issues because they were started/intended as ambiguous references that people out of game tried to nail down into specific setting details.

6. Greg can screw it, so can you: Anyone trying to stick to canon to closely will eventually get Gregged. So either be ready to change your canon, keep it subjective, or stick to themes rather than details or metaphysics.
"

Next up is defining the conventions that define Planescape as a setting.

[Mike Holmes]

I thought that the point of going to a new setting was to adopt it's genre and tropes. I mean, yes, the system will carry some of that encoded, but I've found that where the settings do not match, you have to make changes. I'm talking magic mostly here, and related metaphysics.

Or are you just tyring to determine what does match already between genres? So you know where you'll need to make your alterations?

Mike

[soru]

I'm sensing a bit of confusion in these threads between the HeroQuest tropes (i.e. what makes a HQ game fun to play) and the Gloranthan ones (what is distinctive about Glorantha compared to other gameworlds).

Certainly 'Greg can screw it' is not a rule of Planescape.

soru

[doubtofbuddha]

Or are you just tyring to determine what does match already between genres? So you know where you'll need to make your alterations?

Mike

Yeah, I meant the latter.

Sorry if I was unclear.

I am going to use the baseline for Glorantha in comparison to the baseline to Planescape to determine what I need to change in order to use Planescape with the HeroQuest ruleset. Since HeroQuest was designed for use with Glorantha, I think an examination of the major differences between them would be useful in determining how to adapt Planescape to the HeroQuest ruleset.

Make Sense?

[doubtofbuddha]

I'm sensing a bit of confusion in these threads between the HeroQuest tropes (i.e. what makes a HQ game fun to play) and the Gloranthan ones (what is distinctive about Glorantha compared to other gameworlds).

Certainly 'Greg can screw it' is not a rule of Planescape.

soru

Of course.

See my post above for my response to the point about Glorantha tropes.

What would you consider to be HeroQuest tropes as distinguished from Gloranthan ones?

[Mac Logo]

What would you consider to be HeroQuest tropes as distinguished from Gloranthan ones?

Tricky question given that HeroQuest was written to positively support Gloranthan Tropes.

For me the primary Glorantha Tropes relate to the complex web of inter-pantheon and intra-pantheon relationships.

For example:
An typical Orlanthi will be in no great hurry to help a Troll or a Dara Happan in trouble, especially if they were beating on each other. On the other hand, Orlanth's example tells us that it is a sacred duty to help even your enemy, when they are fighting Chaos.

Many of the examples in the old RQ Cults books were of diverse peoples finding common cause through "minimally" hostile interaction and "remembering" mythic obligations. "The Travels of Biturian Varosh" (available on Issaries' site) and "The Adventures of Paulis Longvale" (from Cults of Terror, Lords of Terror or Cult Compendium) truly set the tone of Glorantha.

One "strange" aspect of Glorantha (in the context of RPGs) and emphasised in HQ is that it's generally wrong to kill a fellow (nonchaotic) sentient. Surrender, ransom and hostage-taking was in the RuneQuest book and acceptable even cross-species. HQ now makes it darn-near impossible to kill outright, unless a concious choice is made.

Cheers

Graeme

[Scripty]

What would you consider to be HeroQuest tropes as distinguished from Gloranthan ones?

Jesse:
This is a tough question, IMO, but one that I will try to give my own opinion on. This is just based on my experience in doing HeroQuest conversions and the two different settings I ran using the HeroQuest rules. Note this all just my opinion based upon my experience. This may not be true and certainly there are probably more informed opinions on this topic that may run counter to my own.

The major changes that I noticed running HQ in other settings were:

1) HeroQuest play works best when it's community based. The hands-down best game that we had with Hyborea HQ was the game where we involved the players with the warring tribes of Hyperboreans. HeroQuest worked really well for both the political struggles between the tribes and also the gritty battle scene at the end, where one of the PCs chopped off his own father's arm and, rather than slay him, left him to live on in disgrace.

2) Characters in HQ work best when they are FROM somewhere. And of course that follows, characters work best when they are from somewhere and it means something. In the Cthulhupunk-HQ game, one of the biggest pitfalls that I encountered (or rather inflicted upon myself) was allowing two players to do the stereotypical "orphan-PC." This was a bad move. But I was all about letting the players do what they wanted. I just didn't know that the system really wouldn't satisfy their desire to be Vampire Hunter D, or whatever it was they were going for. The best character, and subsequently the player who had the best time, was the one created using the "As You Go" method by the female of the group. She started out with nothing, but in the end she had the most connections to the setting of any other PC in the group. IMO, orphan PCs just aren't as much fun to play. I think this is because orphan PCs are constantly at a disadvantage as the most versatile augments by far, IME, are relationships and personality traits. The female PC was pretty weak overall, but she overcame challenges that the other PCs couldn't primarily because she could mine her relationships and personality traits for the best boosts. The other players had characters that were essentially mundane abilities, special abilities and (maybe) two personality traits.

As far as how this changes/affects a setting in a system conversion, there are a few things I've noticed in how I would run, say, Midnight or Dark Sun differently in HeroQuest as compared to my similar experience running and playing (respectively) the settings in D&D.

Taking Midnight or DarkSun into consideration, I would have to start the game in a more focused and localized region of the setting with relevant conflicts already in place. This is where Ron's relationship map comes in and also the web which transforms into the harp strings that players can pluck using their character's relationships. As an example, whereas in D&D it would be perfectly acceptable (in fact the standard) to just have an Elf, a Dwarf, a Halfling, and a Dorn show up in a tavern to meet with a contact who's going to send them to X in order to do Y. I wouldn't approach a game of Midnight-HQ like that. Could I? Certainly, but that sort of disjointed, socially isolated group isn't, IMO, going to have as much fun in HQ as they normally could expect in D&D.

So, in Midnight, the default starting adventure is that your group is a group of renegades meeting a contact in a tavern when (WHOOP) you arrive at the tavern to find your contact taken captive by the Orcs.

In Midnight-HQ, the adventure I would run would differ significantly. Everyone in the party lives along the western coast among one or more different tribes of Sea Elves. Every year the Sea Elves hold a diving competition off the shores of their lands. The characters would play a part in this diving competition in some capacity. Along the western shores, and during the competition, a Sarcosan pirate ship comes in to dock, in order to seek safety from a Sarcosan Imperial Fleet that is pursuing them. The players would be in a position to redefining the Sea Elves' position in the war against the shadow as this would be the first time that the battle had come to their shores. To date, the Sea Elves have been removed, insular, and isolated. This, IMO, would be a great conflict for the players to resolve and would really get the relationship web twitching.

In the first adventure, PCs could be from anywhere. In the HQ adventure, they would have to have good reason to live among the Sea Elves. In later adventures they may be able to take on the role of Sarcosan pirates, depending on whether the Elves accept the pirates or just sink all the boats and go about their business. But, for the most part, they would have to have a good reason to live among the tribe and have a relationship with their tribe as well. "I'm just visiting" wouldn't necessarily cut it as Sea Elves in the setting would most likely kill stragglers, vagabonds or vagrants on sight. And that kind of stuff can really matter in an HQ-based setting.

In a similar vein, a group playing DarkSun-HQ would also need to be from somewhere and need to be integrated into the setting in some fashion. In D&D, it was easy to just make a group of random racial mixes and stats and go kill something until something killed you. IMO, you could do that, and focus on that, in HeroQuest but it's not really playing to the system's strengths. Based on what I have already, if I were to run a DarkSun-HQ game, it would have well-defined conflicts between the major factions in a localized region: the Sorcerer-Kings, the Merchant Houses, the Slave Tribes, the Villagers, etc. The PCs, as a group, would start out with ties to one or more of those factions and then we would go from there.

So, HeroQuest tropes, if you could call them that, affect the setting in the following ways based on my experience:
1) They encourage relationships between the PCs and the setting.
2) They reduce, IMO, the geographic scale of the game. Rather than show the PCs a world map and point out where the Elves live and where the Orcs come from, HQ "tropes" would, IMO, work best if you focused on a smaller region no larger than Dragon Pass and then expanded the conflicts to include other regions later in play.
3) They focus in on the drama-generating conflicts of a setting. In D&D Midnight, the Sea Elves' isolationist disposition would make for a couple of good fights at best. In Midnight-HQ, it can be the cornerstone (or launchpad) for an entire campaign.

In regards to the Planescape setting, it might, IMO, be best to focus in on the different planes with the perspective that an entire campaign might possibly be played in any one of them. Based on my experience, it's hard for me to see a Planescape-HQ game could meander from plane-to-plane and be anything else than D&D with a different system of resolution. But I could easily see an entire campaign, or at least a significant portion of a campaign, based around political intrigue in Sigil resulting in the PCs getting banished to one of the other planes, etc. etc.

One of the things I noticed in Hyborea HQ was that the HeroQuest system seems to add its own flavor to a setting. Sure, we were playing in Hyborea, but it was different than Conan's Hyborea. It worked out best when we "played" it more like I've heard of people playing in Glorantha. Conan, by himself, was a fairly task-based individual. Kill the monster. Get out of the dungeon. Every once in a while a good conflict would come up. But Hyborea-HQ shone when I brought out the conflicts to center stage and allowed the tasks to support that. Rather than run tasks center stage and have the conflict on hand as background noise, which has been my experience with D&D.

I'm aware that I might be jumbling some Forge jargon here, but I think my point comes through despite that. If there's anything I can clarify, please let me know. I just finished an overhaul of Midnight-HQ (and am resuming work on Dark Sun). If you would like to see either document for some ideas, I would be happy to send or resend them to you, Jesse. Contingent, of course, on my acquiring a copy of Planescape-HQ because that would so rock my world!

Scott

[doubtofbuddha]

Haha, well we already discussed this didn't we?

Of course I want to see the revised Midnight document. ;)

I agree largely with what you posted about the tropes of HeroQuest.

As for relating them to Planescape, I think you can maintain the community focus while still maintaining interplanar travel. It seems that Planescape is focused much more around organizationl affiliation than cultural affiliation. While homeland affiliation is possible (ranging from the towns of the Outlands to the neighborhoods of Sigil to places like the Great Dismal Delve), it seems much more focused on around what sort of pantheon or god you worship or what faction you follow.

So I imagine if someone wanted to run a plane-hopping campaign it would help to have some sort of group organizational or homeland tie to bring the PCs together. For example having to deal with how their beliefs as members of the Athar (for example) are dealt with when encountering all of the various divinely-inspired wonders of the Plane or whether the values as Avandorians hold up when they deal with societies from the Outlands or even Gehenna. How do their beliefs liberty hold up in the face of the crushing brutality of most of Gehenna's inhabitants?

One of the major issues that I believe might arise as a result of the conversion of Planescape to HeroQuest is that of alignment.
Obviously alignment, which was a very important part of D&D Planescape, is far less relevant in HeroQuest, requiring some other sort of explanation of what holds the planes together the way they are.

[Scripty]

I agree largely with what you posted about the tropes of HeroQuest.

Thanks. I realized after meandering around and re-reading some of the other threads that this was a continuation of the "Gloranthan Genre conventions / tropes" thread found here: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9615

In that light, I would have to say that my long-winded post can basically be summed up by saying that I think #2 and #3 in Brand's apt description of Gloranthan tropes are actually tropes inherent (for the most part) in the HeroQuest system. The other three are native to Glorantha, the setting, IMO.

As for relating them to Planescape, I think you can maintain the community focus while still maintaining interplanar travel. It seems that Planescape is focused much more around organizationl affiliation than cultural affiliation. While homeland affiliation is possible (ranging from the towns of the Outlands to the neighborhoods of Sigil to places like the Great Dismal Delve), it seems much more focused on around what sort of pantheon or god you worship or what faction you follow.

I agree entirely. I might start out a campaign localized in one area for 4-5 games, however, and then move on to other planes. That's just me though. I agree that it's entirely possible for a game to hop around from plane to plane. I think that is one of the challenges of doing a Planescape-HQ game. It will be interesting to see how you handle the balancing act of popping in and out of the various planes with HeroQuest's focus on community. One means would be to expand the scope of the game such that the PCs are major players in the setting, IMO. But that would require players who are already mostly familiar with Planescape.

So I imagine if someone wanted to run a plane-hopping campaign it would help to have some sort of group organizational or homeland tie to bring the PCs together. For example having to deal with how their beliefs as members of the Athar (for example) are dealt with when encountering all of the various divinely-inspired wonders of the Plane or whether the values as Avandorians hold up when they deal with societies from the Outlands or even Gehenna. How do their beliefs liberty hold up in the face of the crushing brutality of most of Gehenna's inhabitants?

That's a good approach, IMO.

It's been a while since I played Planescape and, even then, we rushed through a quick campaign so that the DM could move on to a Mage game that never happened. I own the original Planescape boxed set, but didn't pick up the rest of the books. There was no chance I would get to run or play in Planescape again. What I remember of the setting or, rather, what we played of it may or may not make sense with what I'm about to say, so please be gentle if I'm totally out in left field here.

Another thing you might consider is adjusting the setting somewhat. IIRC, Sigil was this big city that had a bunch of ways to planehop. We didn't get much outside of Sigil, but I remember that about it. Again, my efforts have been focused on Dark Sun (and Midnight) for a while and it's been easily 5 years since I messed with Planescape at all so my suggestion here may sound like its on crack...

The Midnight-HQ conversion led me to rethink the Midnight setting somewhat. I go over it in more detail, but I have an optional setting in the conversion that tweaks the existing setting. IMO, the tweaks make the setting stronger by giving the human races context. Midnight always struck me as a setting where the Elves got most of the attention anyway. By giving the humans the same kind of interracial struggles that the authors of Midnight gave the Elves, the setting became stronger. Essentially, the tweaks made the setting more like Lord of the Rings, if you can believe that.

It's probably because I'm still in the beginning stages, but I haven't hit upon the "sweet-spot" for Dark Sun yet. The result thus far is very reminiscent of Mad Max (from the tribal perspective) or some other post-apoc setting. The factions are so insular, however, that I'm really thinking that it might wind up like Mad Max meets Dune with Bone Axes and flesh-eating Halflings. I'm thinking, however, that the relationship maps will be the deciding factor in Dark Sun.

Similarly, looking at Planescape just from what I can recall and what you've said thus far, what if you were to base a setting adjustment on Babylon 5 with the players taking on the roles of the leaders of Sigil and Sigil taking on the role of the ship in Babylon 5. I can't remember if the setting already has these elements, but if Sigil were the "Great Elysium" in the center of the planes and the PCs were (or indentured to) the people who were supposed to make sure that it remains so I could see a lot of plane-hopping, diplomacy and (at times) out-and-out war. In fact, you could have the concept of Plane Wars (again my memory is failing, were these already in the setting?) as a major focal point both from the start of the game (with Sigil having been created after the last great Plane-War) and the end (a third (things go nicely in threes) Great Plane War is about to start when play begins).

Again, I honestly can't remember what I'm rehashing from the existing setting, but this is a third option for a plane-hopping campaign should you choose to consider it. Planescape is on my short-list of re-reads once I'm finished with DarkSun-HQ. I'll be more help once my memory is refreshed.

One of the major issues that I believe might arise as a result of the conversion of Planescape to HeroQuest is that of alignment. Obviously alignment, which was a very important part of D&D Planescape, is far less relevant in HeroQuest, requiring some other sort of explanation of what holds the planes together the way they are.

I do remember alignment being a big deal. I'm not sure if you need some sort of explanation other than these forces exist. In DarkSun-HQ, Entropy is a force that permeates the planet. It acts as an augment to the Defiler's magic (who increase it when they cast spells) and works as a negative modifier to Preserver's magic as well as a negative modifier to anyone who tries to live off the land (like, say, with a Farming ability). In some areas, Entropy is greater than it is in others. It is everywhere, however, to some degree. Basically, this is just taking a concept in Athas and giving it legs. The DarkSun book talked about Entropy. It mentioned it quite frequently. But it didn't give it an existence in the system. It was setting flavor. In DarkSun-HQ, it's very real.

Now, extrapolate from that into Planescape, say you have a Lawful Good plane. Lawful Good would be omnipresent in that plane. It would act as an augment to actions that supported it and act as a penalty on those that didn't. That makes the alignment of the plane concrete without resulting in the need for an overarching reason for why it's so. Remember, grey areas are okay (even preferred) in myths.

The best thing about Planescape-HQ, IMO, is that it affords us the opportunity to define precisely what it is about a plane that gives it its "Lawful-Goodness." Rather than saying "Hell" is "Chaotic-Evil," (and again I'm just giving a foggy example) we can say that the theme of Hell is "Eternal Torture." In some areas of Hell "Eternal Torture" would be rated at 13, in others at 5w, and in others it might be as high as 17w2. But all actions in Hell would be touched by its theme, its entire reason for being.

I hope that helps. And again I apologize for my foggy memories about the setting. I dearly loved the games of Planescape that we did play. But that was quite a while ago. I was so unhinged when we stopped the campaign in mid-stride that I've been prejudiced against Mage ever since. I hope my comments were helpful (or in any way relevant). I'll get you the Midnight-HQ revision as well as try to find my blurb on Entropy in the DarkSun-HQ conversion. I think I have your email address around here somewhere. If not I'll PM you.

Scott

[doubtofbuddha]

Scripty, sorry for the delayed response I have been sick and busy so I haven't been as active with well thought-out posting as I would like. Also I would like to thank my friend Rip van Wormer (Rasgon) for helping me out by discussing some of the Planescape tropes with me.

I looked over the Midnight document and will e-mail you my comments some time this week (or weekend)

These are what I beleive the Planescape tropes are:
1)  Belief is Power
In Planescape Belief actually can have "physical" effects on the world. If you have enough people in a particular town begin to align themselves with the alignment of another plane then it will eventually shift and become part of that plane. If an individual gets enough worshippers then they can become a god and if a god loses all its worshippers it will eventually drift away to nothing.

This trope is the one that is easiest to align with the two tropes that you identified as being associated with HeroQuest. One technique that can be used to get the most out of both this aspect of Planescape and HeroQuest's tropes is to have play center around concepts that will require to get some sort of permanent change in the planes, whether that is a quest to become a god (which will like a large amount of worshippers) or the shifting of some portion of a plane from its current location to one that is more preferable to the PCs.

Obviously any sort of action like this will result in values in conflict as the entire set-up of the Great Wheel is about conflicting values. If you seek to shift a town from the Abyss to the Outlands than some oppositional force in the Abyss will want to prevent that from happening. Likewise if you try to become a god, someone else will want to either a) usurp the power you are building or b) prevent you from upsetting the balance between pantheons.  

This can also be easily applied by making the PCs servitors to a philosophy (whether it is religious, one of the factions, or something else would of course be between the players and the Narrator). In recognition of the metaphysical nature of the multiverse all of the philosophies of the planes desire to prove the superiority of their particular vision by getting as many people as possible to believe what they believe, thus proving it to be true.  (Sound familiar? ;))

2) Center of All
As the multiverse is an infinite thing then there is no center of the multiiverse. By the same token, anything can be seen as the center of the  multiverse because of the fact that multiverse radiates infinitely out of it. This can be applied to mortal (PC) heroes easily by keeping the following idea in mind:
There is always going to be something out there that is bigger, badder, and more important than the PCs. Whether this is a god, a demon prince, or the Factol of their faction, it should always be obvious that the PCs aren't the most influential, the most important, or the most powerful beings out there. The Planes are HUGE and there is always something out there that the PCs don't know about, secrets that are impossible to find, and mysteries that can't be solved. By the same token the characters are the center of the multiverse in one perspective. They may not be able to grind the Blood War (the big war between fiends) to a halt or bring down the Olympian pantheon, but they could save a Gatetown from being sucked over into the Abyss or save a nation from the curse of the Fates. The multiverse is bigged than the PCs but that doesn't mean they can't make a difference if they keep to an appropriate perspective.

3) Rule of Threes
Opposing forces always include a third force, a balance. For every unambigous extreme there is a third, ambigious balance and for every amibgous balance there is two unambigous extremes.
This can be implemented by making it so that for each major NPC you bring in you should bring in two more, each representing an aspect of the overall campaign theme or premise. Two should represent opposition with a third pulling things off into an entirely different directions. For example you could have a holy knight of Mount Celestia and a pit fiend of Baator and then some sort of third force such as a modron, elemental, rilmini, or even a Far Realm entity.  The PCs not only have to deal with the "villian" but also the plans of the other two. Synthesis could be the key to their dilemna or one of the extremes could.


4) Unity of Rings
Every ending is a beginning and every beginning is an end and things come back to bite you in the ass. This can be emphasized by having is to it seems that, on a larger scale, the same events happen over and over again. The struggle between kings, the rise and fall of gods, love affairs between eladrin princes. Events create themselves and propogate over and over again creating cycles of opression and death but also love and peace. The entire Outer Planar cosmology is based on a ring and it is easier to find portals to the next plane in the ring. Even Sigil is a ring city at the center of the above-mentioned ring of planes.
Everything cycles, rotates, and comes full circle eventually.


I don't think Planescape would necessarily require that the PCs become major players in the setting any more than it would be required in a modern-day HeroQuest campaign.

The important thing is to create strong ties between the players and their community, whether it is a planar city, a group of plane-faring merchants, a faction, or even the realm of a particular deity.  All of these groups require certain members to travel the planes to deal with extraplanar powers, attempt to alter the beliefs of individuals in hostile terrain, or spread the influence of their community. The PCs can very easily be these members. 4-5 sessions sounds like a great period of time to acclimate the PCs to their local environment and grow fond of it before throwing them into the wider planes. This would also allow them to avoid having to become familiar with the larger setting at first. It is easy to make PCs native to a reslusive portion of the Planes and begin to experience the awe and fantasy of the setting at large just as their players do it. After all, how much would someone who grew up in a small fishing village along the banks of the great river that moves through the Egyptian Pantheon's lands know about Olympus or Tir Na Og, much less the Abyss or the Elemental Planes. Of course lacking knowledge wouldn't work as well in more cosmpolitan areas such as Sigil, but its definitely doable.

I am all for making adjustments to the setting to make it more workable with HeroQuest. In fact a level of that is going to be required to make it even work with the HeroQuest system. However, I think your suggestions carried it a little bit too far. Mainly because the suggestion you gave changes one of the coolest things about the setting... a city built at the top of an infinite spire in the center of an infinite plane, ruled by one of the down-right coolest individuals I have encountered in PS, the unknowable always-silent Lady of Pain who keeps the gods out and the populace in line.

However it would be just as easy to apply your idea to some other important gate-city (such as one of the gate-towns or a city built around a location with alot of gates), making the PCs servitors of (rival) factions who, for one reason or another, wish to keep the city running.


Also it would be very, very difficult for their to be a Great Plane War. The Lower Planes are already invovled in such a thing with the fiends of Baator and the fiends of the Abyss battling it out for ultimate control over the face of "evil" with the fiends of the planes inbetween theirs serving as mercenaries, profiteers, and the like.  If the other planes and their populations were drawn into such a war than they would be helping the fiends win without even fighting the fiends. Unless they were careful the nature of the planes would shift as the beliefs of their inhabitants did until the planes of "good" were no more.

If I were to entirely rehash the setting (which is something I have considered) than that would definitely be an interesting way to go about it. Another idea I have thrown around is making it even more focused on mythological pantheons with the PCs taking the roles of individuals who serve to allow two rival pantheons communicate with each other. The scope of the interactions would increase as the game progressed and the player's comfort level did until they reached the point were they were dealing with several pantheons (communities) dealing with each other and trading for the things that theses communities would value (souls, belief, whatever).

You probably should refresh your memory on Planescape. I plan on doing the same for Dark Sun once you have the first version done.

The best thing about Planescape-HQ, IMO, is that it affords us the opportunity to define precisely what it is about a plane that gives it its "Lawful-Goodness." Rather than saying "Hell" is "Chaotic-Evil," (and again I'm just giving a foggy example) we can say that the theme of Hell is "Eternal Torture." In some areas of Hell "Eternal Torture" would be rated at 13, in others at 5w, and in others it might be as high as 17w2. But all actions in Hell would be touched by its theme, its entire reason for being.

I think this would be the way to go.
In fact I think my next major post (probably going up some time this weekend. I have a program due tommorow, a presentation Wenesday, and a test Thursday. ::growl::) will be on the definition of the planes.


Thanks for the post. It was definitely food for thought and I look forward to your response to this one. I am rather tired though and I hope this is at least half-way coherent.

I am going to bed.

[Scripty]

doubtofbuddha:
"These are what I beleive the Planescape tropes are:
1) Belief is Power
This trope is the one that is easiest to align with the two tropes that you identified as being associated with HeroQuest. One technique that can be used to get the most out of both this aspect of Planescape and HeroQuest's tropes is to have play center around concepts that will require to get some sort of permanent change in the planes, whether that is a quest to become a god (which will like a large amount of worshippers) or the shifting of some portion of a plane from its current location to one that is more preferable to the PCs."

...

"This can also be easily applied by making the PCs servitors to a philosophy (whether it is religious, one of the factions, or something else would of course be between the players and the Narrator). In recognition of the metaphysical nature of the multiverse all of the philosophies of the planes desire to prove the superiority of their particular vision by getting as many people as possible to believe what they believe, thus proving it to be true. (Sound familiar? ;))"

I think that this "trope" is well-supported by the HeroQuest system already by the rules for community support. Personally, I would look towards those to implement something like this and make it even more important in Planescape-HQ.

doubtofbuddha:
"2) Center of All
As the multiverse is an infinite thing then there is no center of the multiiverse. By the same token, anything can be seen as the center of the multiverse because of the fact that multiverse radiates infinitely out of it. This can be applied to mortal (PC) heroes easily by keeping the following idea in mind:"

This is where I think we get a little too far ahead of ourselves.

In reference to what you're speaking of here and what Brand is speaking of earlier as "Gloranthan tropes," I'm reading that you're looking at setting elements of Gloranthat that are directly or indirectly supported in the HeroQuest rules system. Coming from these Gloranthan "tropes," I'm following that you were interested in discovering what people thought those tropes most instrumental to the actual HeroQuest system were. In other words, what tropes could definitely not be removed without the HeroQuest system ceasing to function at its current capacity. That's where I've come in.

Now, when you talk about Planescape "tropes" I'm looking here at the same things: setting elements of Planescape that are going to be either directly or indirectly supported within the rules of your conversion.

But here this "Center of It All" trope seems to be just a setting element to me. Like something that would appear in HeroQuest in one of those black boxes: "The Hero Wars are..." It does not strike me as something that necessarily needs to be supported in the rules-set.

One of the things I had to consider both in DarkSun and Midnight were what elements of the setting needed to be supported in the system and what elements of the setting didn't. For instance, one of the "tropes" in both D&D Midnight and DarkSun is basic survival in the setting. In Midnight, players scrounge around for items and support like PCs in a Gamma World game. There's no money, only barter. And many resources are limited if not entirely non-existant. Just finding a good sword (non-magical) can be a problem. Dark Sun offers similar challenges, only on a grander scale.

Why is it that I scrapped survivalism in Midnight, but not in Dark Sun? Because in Midnight, the survivalism of the setting, in my eyes, was purely a setting element. It was a dial that could be tweaked up and down by the group. If one group wanted to make it a grittier setting, I've provided options. If another one didn't, I give options there as well. For the most part, however, I did not see survivalism as being an inherent part of the Midnight setting. I note this in the conversion, because it's important. If a group wants to play Gamma World in a fantasy setting, they should stick with D&D Midnight. HeroQuest-Midnight is about fighting against (or for) the forces of Izrador, not about trying to find a decent suit of leather armor. I saw the former "trope" as being more instrumental to the setting than the latter. In a sense, I made a decision on behalf of those who wish to play Midnight with the HeroQuest rules, but I saw it as an either-or situation. I saw the real drama of the setting as the battle for Aryth, not as the scarcity of resources under the reign of Izrador. That, to me, was something that could be addressed in play. The Midnight corebook supports this approach itself.

But why isn't this element chucked in Dark Sun? Because, from my mind, the whole point of Dark Sun is eeking out an existence on Athas. Essentially, I see a major part of Dark Sun as fighting the force of Entropy that is turning Athas into a dead planet. Whereas Izrador is the dark force in Midnight consuming all magic, Entropy is a comparable dark force on Athas that is consuming all life. So survivalism is present and supported in the rules in DarkSun-HQ. It is not something that can be tweaked or ignored in Dark Sun HQ. Entropy is a part of everything that people do (for the most part).

Some of these Planescape tropes seem to fit with what we've been calling "tropes" thus far. "Belief is Power" is an element that I could definitely see as being supported by the community support rules. Also, the alignment issue is something that we've already addressed, but it is also one of those things that I think should be supported in a fashion similar to that which I described. But others don't really strike me as needing to be supported by rules. Sure, you could mention them in passing, as I do "Corruption," "Madness Meters," and "Izradian Campaigning" in Midnight. But I don't think they need to be supported in adding or tweaking rules to ensure that they're used, like "Spell Energy" makes HQ magic more like Midnight's. Or how "Entropy" in Dark Sun or the optional use of "Corruption" in Midnight bring a thematic element of a setting front-and-center.

"Center of It All" just strikes me as a setting description. I can't think of any reason to encode it into the rules of a conversion. "Rule of Threes" and "Unity of Rings" strike me as Narrator advice. I think it's important to remain focused on what should be "rules" and what shouldn't. When speaking of "tropes" in this correspondence, I'm thinking you mean setting elements that are to be reflected in the rules. This doesn't mean, to me, that you can't put these other things in your conversion. But I'm just not sure that they should be a part of the rules. Midnight-HQ is riddled with advice and examples on how to get the conversion to work. DarkSun will be too. To me, a lot of these "tropes" seem like they should be part of this advice, rather than encoded into numbers or whatnot.

doubtofbuddha:
"I don't think Planescape would necessarily require that the PCs become major players in the setting any more than it would be required in a modern-day HeroQuest campaign. The important thing is to create strong ties between the players and their community..."

Of course not. But this was an option that I was discussing that could be used to bring plane-hopping out front early on. Remember, I first talked about how to start small, build from one plane, and then move on to others. Here, I'm only discussing playing a campaign where plane-hopping is a major aspect from the outset. Making the PCs major players (akin to the main characters of Babylon 5) could accomplish this, IMO. But, again, this isn't a trope or even a setting element. Just a campaign suggestion put forth for consideration. Check out Mike Holmes' advice for playing an Izradian campaign in Midnight-HQ for an example of how this advice would/could work its way into your conversion.

doubtofbuddha:
"I am all for making adjustments to the setting to make it more workable with HeroQuest. In fact a level of that is going to be required to make it even work with the HeroQuest system. However, I think your suggestions carried it a little bit too far. Mainly because the suggestion you gave changes one of the coolest things about the setting... a city built at the top of an infinite spire in the center of an infinite plane, ruled by one of the down-right coolest individuals I have encountered in PS, the unknowable always-silent Lady of Pain who keeps the gods out and the populace in line.

However it would be just as easy to apply your idea to some other important gate-city (such as one of the gate-towns or a city built around a location with alot of gates), making the PCs servitors of (rival) factions who, for one reason or another, wish to keep the city running."

Now I think we're on the same page. Sure, if you don't want to mess with Sigil, move it somewhere else. Offer it in the conversion as a potential campaign or even your own plane. It's not like TSR or WotC are doing anything with Planescape.

See "Alternate Aryth" in the Midnight-HQ document for an example of an optional setting or, again, Mike's suggestions on "Izradian campaigns" for campaign suggestions. But why stop with just rival factions? Make every PC a representative of a rival faction. Again, think Babylon 5 here. But this is just campaign stuff. This shouldn't need to be reflected in the rules or the hard data of the conversion, IMO.

doubtofbuddha:
"Also it would be very, very difficult for their to be a Great Plane War. The Lower Planes are already invovled in such a thing with the fiends of Baator and the fiends of the Abyss battling it out for ultimate control over the face of "evil" with the fiends of the planes inbetween theirs serving as mercenaries, profiteers, and the like."

Again, this is campaign stuff. But I don't think it would be that hard to do a Great Plane War. If there's never been one, then why not have that be the focus of a campaign? Okay, so we have these fiends fighting against each other... Isn't that a waste of some good old evil? Take a note from Nobilis (and, again, Babylon 5). Have some Excrucians show up. These are dark, mysterious, beyond all alignment (maybe even pure Neutral) beings who show up to erase things. They erase Valhalla. They erase the Happy Hunting Grounds. They erase a third of the Abyss. This makes those poor, overworked PCs in our Plane of Diplomacy all the more important as the Excrucians pose a threat to the planes themselves and definitely put a strain on that "Center of It All" thing. Maybe the Excrucians are the *end* to infinity. Another stage in the Ring of Existence. The "death" before the rebirth, like an eraser on a blackboard...

Take a look at "Alternate Aryth" in Midnight. That's just a means whereby I tweak the Midnight setting for maximum "oomph." It's basically Midnight with all the stops pulled out. You could offer a similar tweak to Planescape. They're easy enough to ignore for those who want vanilla Planescape, or who want to explore the conflicts that are already there. "Alternate Aryth" has no effect on the Midnight conversion whatsoever. It's there for groups to use if it appeals to them. But the conversion works even if that section is never read.

doubtofbuddha:
"If I were to entirely rehash the setting (which is something I have considered) than that would definitely be an interesting way to go about it. Another idea I have thrown around is making it even more focused on mythological pantheons with the PCs taking the roles of individuals who serve to allow two rival pantheons communicate with each other. The scope of the interactions would increase as the game progressed and the player's comfort level did until they reached the point were they were dealing with several pantheons (communities) dealing with each other and trading for the things that theses communities would value (souls, belief, whatever)."

Again, look at "Alternate Aryth" in Midnight-HQ. I'm not suggesting re-hashing the Planescape setting completely. But offering your own twist in the appendix of the conversion. And again, why stop at just two rival pantheons? Have a suggested campaign where the PCs are diplomats for three, four, even five rival Pantheons right at the time that Excrucians are showing up and the first Great Plane War is starting. Again, this is all just campaign bits. Nothing much that would, or should, seep into the conversion itself, IMO.

doubtofbuddha:
"Thanks for the post. It was definitely food for thought and I look forward to your response to this one. I am rather tired though and I hope this is at least half-way coherent.

I am going to bed."

You were more than coherent. I hope I've lived up to your example. Sorry my post was so long. I do think that you should consider what's going into the rules of the conversion, an appendix, etc. etc. I got a little confused on the "tropes" thing as it seems to be shifting in meaning (or application) somewhat. And, you're right, I do need to refresh my memory of the Planescape setting. I've got a busy couple of weeks ahead as well. I'll revisit Planescape once I've gotten Dark Sun's first draft under wraps.

Get some rest.

Scott

[Nicolas Crost]

Hi everyone.

I will start a Planescape Campaign with the HeroQuest Rules in a few weeks. So if anyone who ist already working on a Planescape - HQ conversion would share their thoughts with me, that would be great! I would appreciate any ideas on keywords, magic, rules changes etc.
So if you feel like it (especially Scripty and doubtofbuddha), I would pm you my e-mail adress.

Thanks in advance and I will post my experiences in PS-HQ either here or in the Actual Play forum soon!

Nicolas

[buserian]

Hi everyone.

I will start a Planescape Campaign with the HeroQuest Rules in a few weeks. So if anyone who ist already working on a Planescape - HQ conversion would share their thoughts with me, that would be great! I would appreciate any ideas on keywords, magic, rules changes etc.
So if you feel like it (especially Scripty and doubtofbuddha), I would pm you my e-mail adress.

Thanks in advance and I will post my experiences in PS-HQ either here or in the Actual Play forum soon!

Nicolas

I think Ron Edwards did a conversion from Hero Wars to Planescape (he said so in a topic at the bottom of page 7 of this forum), no idea how useful it would be to you at this stage. Ron?

buserian

Edit: Correction, he DID do one, as the first post in this thread states!