Personality Traits: How Many?

[Deacon Blues]

Each cultural and occupational keyword lists typical Personality traits of typical members (Fears Dragons, Proud, Outgoing, etc).  How many of those traits can a starting character take?

Are they selected as part of the Keyword process - that is to say, does a starting character get all of the personality traits listed under a Keyword if he wants them?  That doesn't seem right.

Are they extra abilities like relationships that you can select during character creation?  If so, the character creation examples contradict this.

Do you just take as many as you like?  If so, doesn't that give a lot of power to Personality traits as augments?

[Shreyas Sampat]

It seems to me that that is precisely the point.

[Mike Holmes]

You can take them all if you like. I usually do. In fact, I usually take all but one just to make the character different from "everybody else" in that group. Then I usually add one or two just to be completely unique. Easily a dozen or so by the time I add virtues on, etc.

Yes, this is loads, and yes it's potent. If you aren't getting at least +6 on every roll from personality traits, consider that you might be in the wrong contests. From the Narrator POV, you should think like TROS SAs. That is, if you can't see a good number of the Hero's personality traits playing into some event, then it's really not interesting to the character.

I had one fight recently where one character was getting about +10 overall from personality. Personality traits tend to be useful in many places, and are really the way that you make a potent character. This is cool, just like TROS, again. It means that the character who's most powerful is the one who gives a damn. It's so cool when a PC can defeat an NPC who has a higher rating in some skill because their augments pump them that far up. This matches life, literature, and the genre so well, I can't tell you how much of an improvement it is to the way RPGs play.

This isn't a bug, it's maybe the game's best feature. When you get done with your character you'll have somebody who's really deep and interesting staring you back from the sheet. Probably as deep as you could describe yourself. That's too cool for words.

Relationships are the focus of those personality traits. That is, personality traits will tell you how and when the character cares, but the relationships will tell you where and what the character cares about and why (Loves Irinia, Defender of Thaylaron City). Together you have a complete map to creating action that will be relevant to the character. In fact, you'll find that players will discover angles that the characters take on issues that you hadn't even forseen. Which means you don't even have to try hard, IME. How different is this from most games where you have to beg the players to pay attention to your plot hooks? It's a godsend.  

I mean, throw a bag of money in the center of a ring, and one racial epithet, and that can be a whole adventure write up. The players will look at their character sheets and take it from there.

Sorry to gush, but... :-)

Mike

Edited to note that Shreyas' wordthrifty cross post, as usual, makes mine look clumsy by comparison.

[Deacon Blues]

Well, I know HQ isn't a Gamist archetype, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that you can use Personality augments on a WIDE variety of tests.  Picture beady-eyed Powergamer hunched over a glowing copy of HeroQuest:

"If I take Honorable and Courageous as Personality traits ... I can use those in combat, in romantic attempts, in debates, in athletic exertion, in facing challenging puzzles ... I'll be unstoppable!"

(No, not meant as a slight to our Gamer brethren.  I pick the extreme case to show a potential weakness, and could make Narrativists look just as silly by picking an extreme Narrativist)

Given that Personality traits can augment more than a few contests, if chosen wisely, including the important advancement tests for ranks in a specialized magic keyword, are there any limits on how to select them?

[Shreyas Sampat]

I suspect that, if applied with common sense (you can't use Fears Dragons to beat down just any guard, but you can use it against the guard that the dragon has posted at its refrigerator door (so you can get out)), then the effect of personality traits should be to make play in different GNS modes superficially resemble each other in play.

[joshua neff]

No, there aren't any limits to personality trait augments. None that I know of anyway. My advice? Don't worry about it. Sure, it's possible for a player to make a hero with nothing but broad & positive personality traits. It's still the narrator's call as to whether or not they apply as augments to a particular roll. And it's within the narrator's rights to give a hero a flaw, including a personality flaw, at any time. Plus, even with all of those augments, the hero won't be "unstoppable"--there's always someone more powerful than you in Glorantha.

But as Mike gushed, personality traits are fantastic. I love them. Those and relationships. Two of HQ's major points, as far as I'm concerned. Let your players augment like crazy with both. It's tremendous fun.

[Brand_Robins]

"If I take Honorable and Courageous as Personality traits ... I can use those in combat, in romantic attempts, in debates, in athletic exertion, in facing challenging puzzles ... I'll be unstoppable!"

I think the key to keeping this under control is making sure that the use of personality traits as augments is regulated by some kind of "relevancy" clause. Unless the personality trait is directly and passionately engaged in the contest, you don't augment with it.

You can use your Honorable to augment all sorts of things, sure, but only if your honor is at stake. Losing a joust, for example, won't make you lose honor -- so you can't pump it up with your honor normally. Now, if you'd sworn on your honor to your true love that you'd win for her, you probably would be able to augment with Honorable -- because your honor is on the line. Of course, if you lose the joust, you'll very likely take the wound penalties to your Honorable (or your True Love) because you gambled with them and lost.

Same deal with courageous -- running a 12 year old out of town when you've got your dozen heavily armed cronies at your back doesn't get augmented by courageous. Sure, you might be courageous, but it sure as hell doesn't matter to this fight. If, otoh, you're taking on 3 armed Lunars all by your self you'll get to augment. The downside is that you're taking on 3 armed Lunars by yourself.

Similarly "cunning" can help you in most negotiations, but when you're trying to make an honest deal with someone it won't help at all (honest might). Nor will it help unless you specifically say that you are using your cunning to one up them, meaning that if you fail they may be mighty pissed that you tried to trick them. Combatative might help in any fight where you're doing your best to beat the crap out of the other side but it probably wont in a fight you don't want to be in, or where you're trying to win without hurting the opponent. Courageous won't help you solve a puzzle – unless it's a Sword of Damocles situation where not solving the puzzle results in your immediate death.

Now, you can "finess" the system even with that guideline. You do it by making sure that any contest you get into brings a passionate response from as many of your character's personality traits as possible. If you know you're going to the joust you swear to your lady, get the other guy to insult your honor, get pissed enough to hurt him and bring out your combatative, make sure to challenge one of the powerful knights on the other side so that your courage comes to bear, make sure he's a Saxon so your hate of Saxons comes out – and then you have a massive +10 from personality trait augments. And all you had to do it was make your character give a damn, put his life and honor on the line, challenge a champion, show his love, and get involved in a situation that the character deeply cares about that deeply shows the character's motives and personality.

Which, of course, is the point that all the narrativist go on and on about when they talk about how great HeroQuest is. If we remember that is the point – to bring out passionate and character building play through the use of augments – then it becomes fairly easy to determine if an augment should be usable in a situation or not. If it's going to reveal character, to make the character care about the world, to involve the character with emotional investments, ties, and problems – it'll probably work. If it won't do most of those things, then it isn't really fitting.

P.S. I'll also note that all those personality traits can become flaws at other times. Your honorable, brave, combatative combat twink character (which, btw, I play in Mike's HQ Shadow World game -- so no slagging the combat twink on my part) can get a lot of bonuses in some situations, but will have an equal number of penalties in others. Just think of how easy it would be for someone like JarEel to call them out. They probably don't have a "cautious" personality trait, and whatever they do end up using will be at -6 at the very least, as that honor, bravery, and combatative nature will make them want to go fight the Lunar DemiGoddess to the death. Same deal with trying to do a delicate negotiation in which they keep getting prickly about their honor and brustling up like they want to fight – those personality traits can come back against them.

I don't normally use personality traits to that degree against the PC (I like them, in general, to be assets rather than flaws) – but if a PC is always using them and needs to be balanced, it certainly is an option.

[Kao Nashi]

Quick off-topic comment. In this thread and many others the members of The Forge have deeply impressed me with their exposition of the HQ system. You have opened up many doors to Maximum Game Fun. And all in an atmosphere of politeness and congeniality. Wow and thanks!

[Shreyas Sampat]

I'd like to add that this thread has convinced me of the value of keywords.

[Mike Holmes]

I'll also note that all those personality traits can become flaws at other times.

Oooh, that gives me an idea, thanks Brand. Thomas is sooo hosed starting next session. I think we'll be seeing the downside of some of his personality traits as he deals with his brother (see Thomas killed their father, y'know, being as he has a personality trait of Berzerker 5W).

Bwahahahhahahahahahaha!

Mike[/quote]

[Deacon Blues]

Thanks for your help in elaborating, guys.  It confirms what I'd been thinking, and clarifies some issues.

Now, where in the rulebook does it say what you guys said?

[edit] Found it - in the heading of the Keywords sections, where it explains what Typical Personality Traits entail.  Hardly the most prominent spot.  (Sorry, I have curmudgeonly issues with HQ's layout)

[Brand_Robins]

I think we'll be seeing the downside of some of his personality traits as he deals with his brother (see Thomas killed their father, y'know, being as he has a personality trait of Berzerker 5W).

And combatative 19, and patricide 5w.

This will be ugly.

BTW, DB -- you aren't the only one. There are a couple sections of HQ I'd like to reorganize -- mostly the C-Gen and magic sections, which can be a bit much to dig through.

[Bankuei]

Hi guys,

Thought I'd briefly add the value of creating conflicting traits for a character to set up an internal struggle.  As a player, you may find it fun to play out the conflict between "Compassionate" and "Overwhelming sense of guilt" in a redemption story, or some other set of conflicting traits.

Chris

[Mike Holmes]

Chris, as the creator of Synthesis, you think that maybe I do that sometimes? The entire game is all about that sort of conflict.

And I've seen Brand do it, too. He'll make two rolls without explaining why, and then announce an action. I think that often, when you're not sure what to do next, it's fun to see "what the character would do" using the system. Shouldn't be used solely, but it's what Ron would call a "springboard for imagination". Once you see the result, like any other result in HQ, you start to imagine the details of why the character is doing what they're doing, and suddenly you're off running again.

I've seen people roll even-odd in other games to decide what to do. HQ has a built in method for making "random" actions match character personality. Neat.

Oh, and if you ask the Narrator if it's OK to roll, you don't void any rule in HQ. Nothing in the rules says that resistances can't be internal.

Mike

[Valamir]

And I've seen Brand do it, too. He'll make two rolls without explaining why, and then announce an action. I think that often, when you're not sure what to do next, it's fun to see "what the character would do" using the system. Shouldn't be used solely, but it's what Ron would call a "springboard for imagination". Once you see the result, like any other result in HQ, you start to imagine the details of why the character is doing what they're doing, and suddenly you're off running again.

Standard operating procedure for Pendragon.

Hardly surprising given they're both Stafford's games

...one could argue that Hero Quest is the ultimate evolution of Stafford's gaming ideals unshackled from the horrible chains of BRP...

...kind of makes me wonder what a similiarly evolved Cthulhu game would look like...