Ranged weapons and dodging

[Thanaeon]

I'm sorry, I must have missed an answer to this question somewhere. But tonight, the question came up of whether characters can try to dodge thrown/shot weapons. The way I handled it was to allow them to use partial evasion but not full evade (reasoning that "running away" isn't too effective a defence against a bow, especially one that's aimed at you). The players managed to attack one bowman each (amateur brigands), dodging an arrow (zig-zagging movement and a full CP partial evasion) each in the process.

Did I do this "wrong"? I did admit to them after the session that it was possible that a character cannot attempt a dodge against ranged weapons and that this might not be possible on another time.

[Salamander]

I'm sorry, I must have missed an answer to this question somewhere. But tonight, the question came up of whether characters can try to dodge thrown/shot weapons. The way I handled it was to allow them to use partial evasion but not full evade (reasoning that "running away" isn't too effective a defence against a bow, especially one that's aimed at you). The players managed to attack one bowman each (amateur brigands), dodging an arrow (zig-zagging movement and a full CP partial evasion) each in the process.

Did I do this "wrong"? I did admit to them after the session that it was possible that a character cannot attempt a dodge against ranged weapons and that this might not be possible on another time.

Let's see here...http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8912&highlight=dodging is one of the options I have seen.

Personally, I will have to think about this for a bit.

[Jake Norwood]

Don't forget the 3 MP penalty for trying to hit an erratic target.

And Thanaeon-
that's how I do it, too.

Jake

[Thanaeon]

Thanks. Yes, I did use the 3 MP penalty, and allowed the partial dodge in addition to it. The other player was charging head on, so I saw no reason to use the 2 MP penalty for straight movement. However, I described the full pool partial evasion as a sidelong dive as he saw his opponent about to let loose the arrow. Came up rolling, wet from the snow and proceeded to hit a level 5 wound into the upper abdomen of an unarmoured and unarmed (dropped the bow and attempted full evade) opponent. Messy. Which makes sense, really.

[Richard_Strey]

Last session the same "problem" came up in our game, as well. Being too lazy to look it up and flexible enough myself, I made the following rules on the fly. They are aimed (no pun intended) towards the "guy charges archer" situation, but should work in any other, as well.

First off, running zig-zag costs you half your move (calculated in a straight line towards the intended destination). You may be running *fast*, but not exactly *where* you wanted to go in the first place.

Second, as in close-combat, you can choose to use duck-and-weave, partial evasion and full evasion. Normal TNs apply.
D-n-w is difficult to pull off, but will allow you to essentially just duck under the speeding arrow or slightly evade it while still running towards the target.
Partial evasion will allow for more an effective evasion, while costing you half your move for this round (That means you are down to 1/4 move if you were running zig-zag, as well).
Full evasion is a full "oh, shit" dive. Movement at zero, you are prone. 1/2 CP next round. A successful acrobatics roll may remedy that, Seneschal's discretion (like, not prone and 1/4 move at TN 6 or something).

Further, I was thinking about the fact that you essentially can only evade a ranged weapon's aim, not the missile itself. Thus, I am currently pondering a mechanic similar to the initiative throw. The shooter and the charger (for lack of better terms) both throw a die every round the weapon is aimed at the target (which has to be aware of this, obviously). For the archer, the choice is Shoot / Keep Aiming. For the charger, it is Evade (choose from the three above) / Keep Running. So, the archer may shoot at a target running full-tilt, shoot at a target that's just evading or even wait for the target to erroneously dive and *then* shoot! Or he may have gambled for an evasive target, kept aiming and then get maimed. Ah, the choices...

Anyway, most of this builds on existing rules and makes the players choose and think. I like that.

[Hereward The Wake]

You can dodge and arrow, if you can see it coming! 8') Or at least you can try! The key is distance. That gives you more time to react. Ths does come back to the point that you made about when does the archer shoot! The later he leaves it the less likely the target will be able to react. But if you do miss then you are in trouble!

JW

[Durgil]

I haven't made up any rules for this yet, but I like the way HârnMaster differentiates between a high velocity missile, such as an arrow or crossbow bolt and a low velocity missile such as a thrown rock or knife.  Basically, the only thing you can do against high velocity stuff is to seek cover, and that you can only do when you know you're being shot at except at very long range.

[Hereward The Wake]

Arrows can be seen, generally, as they are quite big. Of course colour plays a part,  cross bow bolts are generally moving faster and are smaller and generally much harder to see. I would then say, Very Fast, fast and slow.
1 Can i see it? ie is i coming from a direction I am facing.
2 Can I see it coming, based upon speed, size and distance.
3 Based on the above, Do I have the chance to react?

That would be my structure

JW

[Caz]

I allow full evade vs. missiles but define it as dropping into the prone position, flat on the ground, used mostly in games w/firearms.

[Lance D. Allen]

Dodging projectiles, even gunfire, isn't really a matter of reacting before the projectile hits you.. it's reacting in the same moment that the firer releases/pulls the trigger/throws. Once they do that, generally there's no reaiming, because the weapon is firing.. if you react too slow, you get hit. If you react fast enough, you're not where the projectile was aimed at the time of action.

As such, a variant on Richard's initiative rules seems most accurate, but whether or not it the added value is worth the added complexity remains to be determined through playtesting. For simplicity's sake, Thanaeon and Richard both suggest usable options.

[Ingenious]

If you were running say.. perpendicular to an archer and he was aiming in front of you and you stopped.. then yes. Otherwise I don't see anyone reacting fast enough unless at a significant distance.
Arrows are faster than you think. Research how fast an arrow is fired...
It is far faster than a car on the highway.. and more difficult to see. You can react to the archer's aim and try and throw it off a hell of alot easier than you can react to an arrow in flight. You try reacting to a projectile that is going at a rate of 100+mph. You might need to roll a perception vs TN of ___ in order to gauge where the arrow is travelling at, in any particular instant. That way... if you fail your perception roll.. it acts like you gauged the arrow's travel incorrectly and were hit.

It's like receivers in football returning a punt. Sometimes they lose sight of the thing while it is in mid-air.. sometimes they guage the travel incorrectly, sometimes the winds drifts it and helps to throw off the person trying to figure out where the hell the ball is going to end up.
(That analogy works for long-distance shots, which typically have a more arched trajectory.. as compared to a flat-trajectory shot taken at say... 10 yards.)

*shrug* I am of the opinion that the evasion rules already cover the process of throwing off an archer's aim quite damn well. I would also state that acrobatics would be an interesting thing to see in this situation..
-Ingenious

[silburnl]

It's like receivers in football returning a punt. Sometimes they lose sight of the thing while it is in mid-air.. sometimes they guage the travel incorrectly, sometimes the winds drifts it and helps to throw off the person trying to figure out where the hell the ball is going to end up.
(That analogy works for long-distance shots, which typically have a more arched trajectory.. as compared to a flat-trajectory shot taken at say... 10 yards.)

The distinction between close-in and at-range shooting needs to be strongly made. I observed a bunch of archers shooting against marks at 100-200 paces range last year and made a point of counting off the flight time for the arrows.  

An arrow is trivial to dodge at that sort of range provided you get a chance to observe its trajectory. Those suckers have flight times of ~5 seconds when being arched and you can do a lot of moving around in that time if you have to. A decent archer (what we would call national competition standard nowadays, but back then would have been everyday proficient) can put an arrow pretty much where they want to of course, but the trick for them is predicting where their target will be in two or three combat rounds' time.

Of course things change a lot when:
 - the target doesn't observe the arrow in flight
 - the target can't move freely (eg in formation or otherwise engaged)
 - the archer has a few dozen friends shooting as well
 - the range is below 50 paces or so (ie the arrow will arrive this combat round)

Regards
Luke

[Muggins]

Arrows are faster than you think. Research how fast an arrow is fired...
It is far faster than a car on the highway.. and more difficult to see. You can react to the archer's aim and try and throw it off a hell of alot easier than you can react to an arrow in flight. You try reacting to a projectile that is going at a rate of 100+mph. -Ingenious

Ever played cricket? If you are able to watch a fast bowler as he barrels in, you may be able to anticipate where the ball may go. But you struggle to actually see the ball. Arrows are larger and slightly faster, but it may be possible to dodge the arrow by estimating where the archer is aiming.

Not that I intend to try...!

James

[Mike Holmes]

You can dodge gunfire. OK, no you can't.

This is one of those things that gets desicussed to death. Fortunately, this one has an answer. Nobody claims that people are fast enough to dodge a bullet (outside of a supers game). But you certainly can make yourself a more difficult target. By simply not standing still, you make yourself waaay harder to hit. By moving erratically as you do, you can make yourself a terrifically tough target.

With slower projectiles, maybe you can dodge, maybe you can't, but the question is moot. You can make yourself harder to hit.

The only question is whether the 3 cost for erratic movement covers this or not? I'd say no, that you can, if you're aware of the attack, move even more erratically, and get the bonus for evade - just like Jake and Thaneon suggest (I even like the Full Evade option as presented above). If you think this is a tad unrealistic, just rationalize that it makes hand to hand more effective, which is cool for play's sake.

OTOH, if you want some ultra realistic approach, just reduce the effectiveness of these things somewhat. Very simple modification. I don't know that it's possible to get this perfect, but what you need to have is something that the player's buy in play from your description of the action, and which makes play fun. So work towards that for your group.

Mike

[Mokkurkalfe]

Personally, I allow for he partial- and full evasions to be used against projectile weapons. I imagined the 3 dice cost for moving eratically was only for "unsuspecting" movement, like a fighting person unaware of the shooter.