swings vs thrusts

[Valamir]

Take a weapon like an Arming Sword or Long Sword.

Both of these weapons are designed to both cut and thrust. They are better at cutting (which is why they have a lower cut ATN) but still the weapons wouldn't have a point if warriors weren't expected to need it from time to time.

Yet in a game where you have the luxury to crunch numbers there seems to be little reason to every thrust in the game with an Arming Sword. 1 lower ATN and 1 lower damage to boot (which seems overkill to me...the 1 lower ATN is already pretty much guarenteeing lower damage anyway).

So my questions are these.

1) anyone out there using one of these weapons in actual play ever find themselves choosing to thrust instead of swing? If so, why? What are the advantages of the thrust that lead you to accept the lower ATN and damage.

2) If not, is this realistic? Should Arming Sword armed warriors thrust occassionally? Maybe they swing 3 or 4 or 5 times for every one time they thrust, but still, they likely would thrust from time to time, or they wouldn't bother putting a point on the sword.

3) If Arming Sword armed warriors would be thrusting from time to time, and in actual player players are really never doing it (because the penalty is significant) what can be done to encourage a more historical level of both cutting and thrusting.

What are the advantages to a real wielder of the sword to thrust from time to time even with a weapon designed more for cutting?

I would suspect its the ability to catch an opponent off guard, like pitching a change-up after a series of fast balls and maybe land an easy hit that shouldn't have gotten by.

But how to model this in the combat system?

My only idea would be to use the accumulating -1 CP system for repeated feints for repeated cuts, and reset the penalty when one throws a thrust into the mix...but this seems extraordinary tedious to actually track.

Or am I way off...and people are thrusting all the time with these things...

[Ingenious]

Regarding the arming sword...
My first character had one.. performed a few thrusts with it I beleive in practice combat awhile back. It seemed to be fine with me.
Also, as a player I view thrusts as more lethal than cuts. So that's a motivating factor for thrusting. Also, in reference to the damage tables.. I beleive it takes less of a wound level to be of significance for a character in terms of thrusting. I.e. they have higher pain, bloodloss, and whatnot.

As for my new character, who uses a sword and shield..hence, an arming sword.. will occasionally use a thrust with it. I forsee that as being an open possibility and or something that will definutely happen.
You could do a feint cut and then thrust possibly.. which might result in an opponent declaring a block as a defense, as compared to an expulsion or other some such thrust-based defense... which might free up an area to be thrusted at and negate the original block move. *shrug*
That's a bit of an exotic feint though.. and it might not even do what I think it might.
*shrug*
Also, I find it easier to thrust to open spots, such as the neck..
My character wears full plate, and has side neck-guard plates..(forgetting again the terminology for those things), but the front of his neck is still an open target for thrusts.. but for cuts the neck would be protected...
There's another motivating factor.
Would you want to cut at someone's arms wearing plate? Or would you rather thrust at their armpits instead, which is a far more vulnerable area..

Again, this is just my opinion of the matter.. and might not have any actual truth behind it.
-Ingenious

[Caz]

In real life there were plenty of different designs of arming swords and long swords.  Some would thrust better than cut.  Adjust the numbers.
   Also, like he said, thrusting can be more lethal.
   Then there are the situations.  If you're playing realistically, and you face someone in much armour, thrusting may be your only option to wound him.

[Brian Leybourne]

1) Thrusts are faster (bonus on the reflex check) and thus very useful in a red/red situation.

2) Thrusts take up less room in narrow corridors etc where I would impose penalties for swings (especially of long weapons)

Other than those, I figure you're about right. Jake's the WMA expert, but certainly in Kendo there are a lot of swings and not much in the way of thrusts, which probably indicates the usefulness of each (and in competition, you're not even allow to thrust if you're below a certain rank).

Brian.

[Richard_Strey]

And don't forget thrusts to the face of a pot-helmeted opponent. Otherwise the others above are quite correct.

[Muggins]

In actual swordfighting, thrusts are rarely used as an opening attack. It is too easy simple to step offline and attack the thruster's arms. A thrust is normally used once the weapons have engaged, as one person withdraws and leaves an opening for the other person. This is especially true from the bind.

In damage terms, thrusts are not as powerful as cuts. A thrust needs to be carefully placed to do significant damage. The human body has a lot of protection from bone and muscle, and there is a surprising amount of non-essential places. If people are interested in how exactly people get damaged in real sword fights, here is a link:
http://www.realfighting.com/0503/flurzframe.html

In game terms, the system as it stands could be adapted. Decreasing the ATN even more for thrusting from such manouevers as 'Bind and strike' is one option. However, I would keep the damage penalty as is.

James

[Valamir]

That's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about James.

If there are certain points in a real sword fight where it becomes advantageous to use a predominately cutting sword to make an opportunistic thrust, what are those pointsand how to we encourage such behavior in TROS.

Instead of reducing the ATN (or perhaps into addition to), what about increasing the opponent's DTN after certain criteria to reflect the added difficult of suddenly having to defend against a short quick thrust instead of the cuts that have been comeing at you.

[Jake Norwood]

Much of the thrusting in pre-C&T swordplay happened in winding and binding situations, which will be covered in depth in TFOB.

Jake

[Lance D. Allen]

Valamir,

A bit of commentary, as most of what I would have answered has been covered..

Many SCA fighters do not bother with a thrusting tip (padding required for any weapon to be thrust by SCA rules) on their "single swords" or arming swords because it is often times considered less than useful. Also, purely for SCA reasons, it adds weight to the weapon for a rarely used attack. How this is historically significant, I'm not sure, but the rarity of the thrust is reflected here.

Caz,

Wouldn't those variants essentially be covered by the cut-and-thrust sword (for the Arming Sword) and the Bastard sword (for the longsword?)

Muggins mentions that thrusts are rarely an opening attack, but there are notable exceptions which are basically covered by the red-red. I've been shown that a sudden, sharp thrust to the face is often times the quickest way to end a fight if you can act fast enough, but you'd better be ready to miss and react accordingly. Essentially, this is modeled by the bonus to thrusts in red-reds, and by never over-committing your CP to the attack.

Basically, I think the numbers as are encourage realistic choices. Most arming swords and longswords are primarily used to cut, but as there are definitely times when the thrust is the most opportune maneuver, the weapon is capable of that as well.

[Valamir]

but as there are definitely times when the thrust is the most opportune maneuver, the weapon is capable of that as well.

As an interesting exercise and in the spirit of helping those without WMA training more accurately describe their combat moves...can we categorize what those times are and match that to appropriate TROS situations / modifiers?

[Edge]

we had a number of battles last night and a mate of mine won all of them with an aggressive stance followed by halfswording and a thust to the head with a bastard sword.

Any ideas for combating this... he has a natural cp of 14

[Malechi]

I had a similar problem with a friend (doug for those who know him) whom I was trying to get into the game.   He'd stack his pool, go aggressive and just chop my head off...every time.  There's a few options available.

1) Full Evasion: TN of 4 i think, if you've got enough dice to overcome his possible 14 successes with a full evasion/retreat.  
2) Partial Evasion: at TN 7 its comperable to most weapon defensive TNs. It allows you to take initiative as if he'd botched if I recall properly.
3) Counter: each success of the attacker is added to your next attack, this way his 14 dice pool are a threat to him.

there's more ways but if you take defensive stance and try the counter, its going to eventually bite him in the cajones.  Also, are you using the optional 2CP penalty to thrusts to the head? or was it 1CP..anyway, it makes sense and can balance that out a bit.

[Jake Norwood]

we had a number of battles last night and a mate of mine won all of them with an aggressive stance followed by halfswording and a thust to the head with a bastard sword.

Any ideas for combating this... he has a natural cp of 14

What weapon are you using? Chances are it's longer than his half sword reach, penalizing him dice on the spot.

Are you using a defensive stance?

Have you tried red-red and thrusting at him from an agressive non-half-sword position?

Use full evades if things look ugly, or go for the risk and dump everything into a counter, which could really ruin his day.

jake

[Ingenious]

Yea. What Jake said.
Force a red/red and see what he does.
If he half-swords again and thrusts.. try a beat manouver.
Try a defensive half-sword.
If you use a shield.. try to block him open. OR simultaneously block/strike him.

If characters are more apt for quick kills, hence using their full CP in the first exchange.. institute a rule that says you can no longer use full CP attacks except for in the second exchange. or Declare red/red and strike first with the majority of your CP towards a weak spot on him, i.e. unarmored or poorly armored in respect to the rest of him. To me, this would automatically subtract shock and pain from his attack. Even if it is a split second, I doubt anyone.. if stabbed or hit in the neck(groin, weapon-arm etc) with sufficient force during a simultaneous attack.. will have enough left in them to follow-through on their original attack.

-Ingenious

[Edge]

cheers guys i'll try those tonight and report back :)
Jase you taking notes??